TMV vs KBB or NADA
04-01-2016, 04:11 PM
#1
On The Tree
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TMV vs KBB or NADA So I'm in he market again for a Fox Body. Sold my T/A about 4 years ago when we learned my wife was pregnant. Thought it was prudent. Sold the car and basically broke even. Not bad, but not great. Fast forward to now... 15-16 year old cars going for $3-4K over KBB. Did not know this. I thought I could find a nice and unmolested Camaro SS for like $5-6k but all I'm finding is like $12-14k.
Boy was I wrong. Let's say I find a nice Camaro for 9k but book value is $6800 and out of state. Not sure how to approach and sound like a low balling douche.
Boy was I wrong. Let's say I find a nice Camaro for 9k but book value is $6800 and out of state. Not sure how to approach and sound like a low balling douche.
04-02-2016, 02:49 PM
#2
TECH Enthusiast
Yeah, for lower mileage car, especially under 50K-70K miles, those guides don't give a proper value to those low miles. It's not the owners or sellers fault....but the market which is accurately valuing those miles vs. the garbage in the price guides.
My sig line car is worth approx $12K-$13K. Yet the price guides have it down around the $8K or $9K level. The price guides also don't give any additional value for a 6 speed. That's another $1K-$2K you could be off. But if you can bamboozle someone to sell their low mile LS1 F body for KBB or NADA, more power to you.
I wouldn't say the values on these cars have risen any in the past 4 years. They also haven't gone down any for the most part. My car was worth $12K back in January 2012 when I bought it. I've since done tires + AC + fluids. So it's pretty much held value, though not gained anything. It's possible some of the rarer and more desirable cars like a 2001/2002 SOM WS6 M6 have gone up in value a significant amount.
You can find a decent, 1-2 owner, unmolested Camaro for $5K-$6K. It's just that it will have 100,000+ miles and probably be an automatic base Firebird or Z28. KBB and NADA tend to be fairly accurate on cars with 100K or more miles. They are probably dead on when it comes to cars with 150K-175K miles which is what I think "average" mileage is for these. You can certainly cherry pick a decent, lower mileage, $6K-$9K car if you keep your eyes open.
My sig line car is worth approx $12K-$13K. Yet the price guides have it down around the $8K or $9K level. The price guides also don't give any additional value for a 6 speed. That's another $1K-$2K you could be off. But if you can bamboozle someone to sell their low mile LS1 F body for KBB or NADA, more power to you.
I wouldn't say the values on these cars have risen any in the past 4 years. They also haven't gone down any for the most part. My car was worth $12K back in January 2012 when I bought it. I've since done tires + AC + fluids. So it's pretty much held value, though not gained anything. It's possible some of the rarer and more desirable cars like a 2001/2002 SOM WS6 M6 have gone up in value a significant amount.
You can find a decent, 1-2 owner, unmolested Camaro for $5K-$6K. It's just that it will have 100,000+ miles and probably be an automatic base Firebird or Z28. KBB and NADA tend to be fairly accurate on cars with 100K or more miles. They are probably dead on when it comes to cars with 150K-175K miles which is what I think "average" mileage is for these. You can certainly cherry pick a decent, lower mileage, $6K-$9K car if you keep your eyes open.
04-02-2016, 07:10 PM
#3
LS1Tech Administrator
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Schiller Park, IL Member: #317
Posts: 32,370
Likes: 0
Received 1,800 Likes
on
1,282 Posts
I will say....there are plenty of sellers out there who are dreamers or downright delusional. I see LS1 Z28s with ~90-100k miles sometimes listed for $12k+, or WS6 cars with ~80-100k miles for $18-24k (another staff member linked me to a couple of these in his area recently, one was actually a 90k mile WS6 for $24k....perhaps an April Fool's?) Those cars won't sell, not at those prices. I'm not even willing to make those sellers an offer, because they often call fair offers "low balling". Do they really expect to get a $20k offer on their 90k mile mostly-stock WS6? If so, I hope they are immortal because they'll be waiting until the end of time. Better to just move on IMO.
Having said that, I agree with Firebrian that really low mile, exceptional examples (and especially those with highly desirable options) are worth considerably more than "book" values indicate. So if you're looking for a very low mile, extremely nice condition Camaro SS, you can forget about finding something of that description for $5-6k (then again, not everyone has the same definition of "very low mile, extremely nice condition".)
The [fair] purchase price range on these cars is pretty wide, all depending on options/trim, model and condition/mileage - but the asking price range is even wider. Just remember that some of those $12-15k cars are overpriced, some massively so, which is why their ads are up forever. Better deals will come along if you keep looking - but those good deals won't last so be prepared to move quickly on the right car.
Having said that, I agree with Firebrian that really low mile, exceptional examples (and especially those with highly desirable options) are worth considerably more than "book" values indicate. So if you're looking for a very low mile, extremely nice condition Camaro SS, you can forget about finding something of that description for $5-6k (then again, not everyone has the same definition of "very low mile, extremely nice condition".)
The [fair] purchase price range on these cars is pretty wide, all depending on options/trim, model and condition/mileage - but the asking price range is even wider. Just remember that some of those $12-15k cars are overpriced, some massively so, which is why their ads are up forever. Better deals will come along if you keep looking - but those good deals won't last so be prepared to move quickly on the right car.
04-03-2016, 08:57 AM
#5
TECH Junkie
You mentioned 'out of state' cars so I will share some thoughts. You probably know this stuff but maybe someone else can use the info that is reading this. You MUST go to see the car in person or else have an extremely good vibe with the seller. That can be accomplished through several phone calls (lengthy, not 1 or 2 minute calls) and many detailed photos along with a Carfax (not perfect but still a useful tool). The conversations must include the maintenance history of the car and it's overall history in general. A walk around with a cel phone is also common now. You ask questions as the seller describes the car as he walks around it. The seller must be cooperative in meeting with you at a local bank or AAA office or wherever the transaction will occur. If a reputable dealer, not a problem there. Before you make the journey, every piece of info you desire must be satisfactory.
I've completed these transactions as both a seller and buyer and have only struck out once (for my neighbor). Fortunately it was just a 5 hour trip and no big deal but it would have been a big deal if my neighbor bought the car without seeing it in person. I almost bought a car ('87 SS Aerocoupe) sight unseen up in Pittsburgh. Great photos, a 'car guy' seller that went to shows and only 13,000 miles on it. We agreed upon a price and off we went on a 500 miles trip. The Aero was incredible BUT the years of storage were evident with the running condition. By observing the issues IN PERSON we could negotiate the price down by a significant amount. The seller was not expecting the storage issues and worked with us. No purposeful misrepresentation. If he didn't work with us, bye bye, just a road trip and a smart one. Our two day trip (about $500 in gas food motel) saved us some serious money. Not only in knocking down the price, but the repairs needed, and the transport. Talking a few grand here.
Reputable specialized dealers are generally good but even then it's best to travel to make sure. We did a trip to Philadelphia to buy a 911 once and the trip back to NC was a highlight of the purchase. I'll always remember it. It can be a fun enjoyable experience as well as a needed, necessary one.
Best of luck with your search, and as posted above, the prices you see are asking prices. There is plenty of room for cash deals in the seller's driveway.
I've completed these transactions as both a seller and buyer and have only struck out once (for my neighbor). Fortunately it was just a 5 hour trip and no big deal but it would have been a big deal if my neighbor bought the car without seeing it in person. I almost bought a car ('87 SS Aerocoupe) sight unseen up in Pittsburgh. Great photos, a 'car guy' seller that went to shows and only 13,000 miles on it. We agreed upon a price and off we went on a 500 miles trip. The Aero was incredible BUT the years of storage were evident with the running condition. By observing the issues IN PERSON we could negotiate the price down by a significant amount. The seller was not expecting the storage issues and worked with us. No purposeful misrepresentation. If he didn't work with us, bye bye, just a road trip and a smart one. Our two day trip (about $500 in gas food motel) saved us some serious money. Not only in knocking down the price, but the repairs needed, and the transport. Talking a few grand here.
Reputable specialized dealers are generally good but even then it's best to travel to make sure. We did a trip to Philadelphia to buy a 911 once and the trip back to NC was a highlight of the purchase. I'll always remember it. It can be a fun enjoyable experience as well as a needed, necessary one.
Best of luck with your search, and as posted above, the prices you see are asking prices. There is plenty of room for cash deals in the seller's driveway.
04-03-2016, 10:05 AM
#6
I will say....there are plenty of sellers out there who are dreamers or downright delusional. I see LS1 Z28s with ~90-100k miles sometimes listed for $12k+, or WS6 cars with ~80-100k miles for $18-24k (another staff member linked me to a couple of these in his area recently, one was actually a 90k mile WS6 for $24k....perhaps an April Fool's?) Those cars won't sell, not at those prices. I'm not even willing to make those sellers an offer, because they often call fair offers "low balling". Do they really expect to get a $20k offer on their 90k mile mostly-stock WS6? If so, I hope they are immortal because they'll be waiting until the end of time. Better to just move on IMO.
Having said that, I agree with Firebrian that really low mile, exceptional examples (and especially those with highly desirable options) are worth considerably more than "book" values indicate. So if you're looking for a very low mile, extremely nice condition Camaro SS, you can forget about finding something of that description for $5-6k (then again, not everyone has the same definition of "very low mile, extremely nice condition".)
The [fair] purchase price range on these cars is pretty wide, all depending on options/trim, model and condition/mileage - but the asking price range is even wider. Just remember that some of those $12-15k cars are overpriced, some massively so, which is why their ads are up forever. Better deals will come along if you keep looking - but those good deals won't last so be prepared to move quickly on the right car.
Having said that, I agree with Firebrian that really low mile, exceptional examples (and especially those with highly desirable options) are worth considerably more than "book" values indicate. So if you're looking for a very low mile, extremely nice condition Camaro SS, you can forget about finding something of that description for $5-6k (then again, not everyone has the same definition of "very low mile, extremely nice condition".)
The [fair] purchase price range on these cars is pretty wide, all depending on options/trim, model and condition/mileage - but the asking price range is even wider. Just remember that some of those $12-15k cars are overpriced, some massively so, which is why their ads are up forever. Better deals will come along if you keep looking - but those good deals won't last so be prepared to move quickly on the right car.