Firebrian

https://ls1tech.com/forums/search.php?searchid=33643249

There's a link to posts here with "SGM" in them. Just on reading the first 3 there's a dozen people around here that are SGM enthusiasts. One guy went 18 months looking for one back in 2010-2011 and the thread ended. I can only figure they gave up looking. Most of them appearing on the market appear to be modified and with miles in the 75K-130K range. I'd want mine well under 50K miles and essentially stock. I doubt many qualify. There's a clean one for sale here with 120K miles with mods. Not my cup of tea though. A rare factory color means a lot less when the car is no longer stock, and miles piled on. And repainted bumpers, nose, hood, etc. don't help either.

https://ls1tech.com/forums/vehicle-c...m6-1-18-a.html

There's 9 people responding to the 120K mile WS6 saying they like SGM. And for $10,500 some of them look to be buyers.

I hope the other 3 WS6 SGM A4 verts didn't realize this same fate. I guess they could always drive it down to see the Pawn Stars.

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-s...11949943&Log=0

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

I definitely don't disagree, anyone in this hobby should be well aware of these folks as there are plenty of them out there, it's just not for me. It takes away too much of the fun if, while shopping, I'm concerning myself specifically with value retention/future sale prices/desirability and/or thinking of the car as some sort of bank account that I can sell for future retirement needs or a dedicated emergency fund. That's just not the point to me. I worry about price only so far as making sure I don't over pay or under sell in those moments, but beyond that I just buy what I like. I'm averaging about 10+ years of ownership between my two current garage queens; keeping cars this long, there is little point in worrying about where the market will go. I might keep them another 10 years, or perhaps for the rest of my life.

I will take the other side of that coin. I suspect the opposite will be true then, as now. The rare colors of '98 generally don't make them more desirable than '01/'02 cars in the overall 4th gen market. And that's coming from one of the few individuals who would actually pay more for a '98, simply due to the roof issue, but I realize how vastly in the minority I am.

This was a few years ago so I don't remember all the details. I do remember that it was priced better than comparable "common" color examples. I think most shoppers looked at it the same way I did - just not a color they wanted to live with. Also keep in mind this was a Z28, not really "collector" trim level, so those few folks looking for the rarest WS6 cars possible, regardless of color, would not get excited about a simple Z28.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

It's not SGM, but it's pretty equally rare (BPM):

http://chicago.craigslist.org/nwc/cto/5732577175.html

This current ad is a month old but the car has popped up in my searches for longer than that. The price was higher before, but I can't recall what it started at. It's not a WS6, but it looks like the owner was (and still is) banking on the rare color adding some value as it's otherwise just a high mileage Trans Am. Good overall condition for the mileage. Not a popular color though, so I don't think rarity is going to help him get it sold or get a higher price than a black or red car.

70T/A400

iTrader: (2)

The bubbling sail panel and the cracked door panels are definitely something I consider when looking at cars. The 1998 I have shows none of these problems and I did not know they even existed until I started looking last year at 2002's.

The PCM, EGR and LS1 intake are knocks against the '98's.

But if you find a low mileage '98 in good shape, you have found a rare car. GM did not make as many and they are more depreciated than an '01/'02.

When looking at a 4th Gen F-Car, mileage, condition, # of owners and modifications are what stand out even before colour.

Firebrian

I agree with this. I would be looking for a rare color with all the attributes very positive as well. The best of the best.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

The PCM is a non-issue for most purposes. If you are planning a major build that requires extensive tuning then I'd agree that a '99+ (or, better yet, '01+ PCM with the faster processor) PCM would be preferred. As for the EGR/LS1 intake, that's the same for all '98-'00 cars so it's not a '98 specific concern or detraction.

I agree, I've been looking for a second one as a driver ever since I sold my '02 car. It's pretty hard to find nice, low mile '98s at this point. Things like the intake don't matter to me, as I'd much rather swap on an LS6 intake than deal with another roof replacement like I did on my last '02. And if I'm going to replace the roof, then I might as well get another '01/'02 car at that point, which makes the '99-'00 cars the least desirable to me.

Certain colors are just an instant turn-off to me, regardless of all those other important factors. If I'm neutral on the color, or just mildly dislike it, then I could overlook that if all else about the car is what I want. A color like SGM or BPM is pretty much an instant turn-off to me though. It would have to be an amazing deal and car to get me to even think about overlooking those colors.

70T/A400

iTrader: (2)

How much does it cost to rectify the bubbling sail roof panel?

I have a 1998 WS6 that was made in 05/98 and am the original owner. I have never seen any of the trouble my 2002 WS6 has.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

05/98 is a hit-or-miss production month. The process change that caused this problem (omission of the epoxy primer undercoat) seems to have begun during that month, so some of the cars are OK while others will bubble just as bad as a '99+ car. Looks like you got lucky with your May car.

As for replacement cost, there is a big range depending on how you decide to proceed. There is only one source that offers brand new reproduction panels (site sponsor 6LE), these are $600 + $150 shipping:

http://6litereaterdesigns.com/store/...roducts_id=241

GM has long since discontinued the original panels, so new original ones are not an option unless you can find someone with an NOS example.

Many people go with a used panel from a '93-early '98 car. They are all the same fitment so using one from an early 4th gen is fine. There is a lot of labor involved in removing the used panel (without damaging it) from the donor car though. I've seen all kinds of prices on these used panels, ranging from as little as $50 (at this price it's normally a junk yard and they expect you to remove it yourself) to as much as $200-300 for ones that have already been removed from the donor car but that usually aren't yet prepped for paint or re-installation.

Then there is the matter of install. Some people choose to do this themselves, saving some extra money. That will also obviously mean having to remove the old panel first. Body shop pricing on this will also range, from labor amounts to cost of paint/prep work. All told, if you are buying a new repro panel from 6LE and getting a shop to do all the R&R + paint work, you can expect to spend $1000+ total for a t-top car (which you obviously have on a 2002 Trans Am - total cost for a hardtop car would be considerably more due to much more labor and $1000 just for the reproduction panel + shipping.) There will be some additional cost if you want new corner pieces (rather than reusing your originals.) I'm not sure if these are still available new from GM, but I can look up the part numbers if anyone is interested.

On top of the cost, there are fitment concerns. I had my '02 car done by a local GM dealer who was familiar with the problem and had repaired others in the past. This was back when GM panels were still available, so it was an OEM part. Even still, the fitment was not perfect; the panel is glued in place so it's very important for them to use just the right size bead of adhesive and get the positioning just right as they settle it into place. Mine was OK for a driver, but it would have bugged me quite a bit if it was show vehicle. I couldn't really complain though, as they did this for free under the 6 year/100k mile corrosion warranty (something that few dealers were willing to get approved for most individuals.) If you are insistent on perfect fitment, I'd make sure to go to a body shop that understands the concerns of special interest vehicles and the demanding standards of their owners.

Firebrian

While that's probably more desirable than SGM, it's still not a low mileage WS6, which is where the true collectors are going to be. At 120K miles it's well beyond my comfort zone of approx 55K miles. I think it was 2 years ago that forum member EVL sold their 1998 purple TA M6 with 92K miles for $8K. And that car was gone through with new and upgraded brakes, tires, suspension, exhaust, etc.

And the owner of this purple car for sale must have blinders on based on their ad:

"No issues, no check engine lights, no leaks, good tires, flawless exterior, interior could use a good cleaning but other then that fairly clean."

Cracked dash and a huge wiper scuff across the windshield. I wonder what else they consider "no issue?" Flawless exterior with 120K miles? Yeah right. Probably don't have to look much further than this as to why it hasn't sold. I wouldn't be surprised if some of it has been repainted. If it were bone stock, and a mint 35K miles or less, it would be a different story. And better yet if it were a BPM WS6 of which only 12 were made. NBM that year is rare too with only 29 built. While you can get that color in '99-'02, I still think it would be a nice score to find a BPM '98 WS6 at little to no premium.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Again, I don't disagree, I was just pointing out that the way the ad is written it seems the owner is assigning a premium to this car due his perceived value of its color rarity. The car certainly isn't perfect, in fact it's laughable that anyone would even use the word "flawless" on any car with 120k that hasn't received a nut-and-bolt rotisserie restoration, but it's not in bad shape at all for a Great Lakes region car with 120k miles. Yet still, I don't think it will/would bring any more than a comparable red or black car. The ad seems to imply, or at least infer, that the color rarity has inherent value regardless of mileage, but reality suggests otherwise as the car has been for sale for quite some time now.

Basically, I agree that #1 or #2 condition cars of super rare colors, even ones that aren't popular, might command a premium to the right buyer - but not on the market as a whole as might be the case for other rare colors that are popular in addition to being rare. For example, if that BPM Trans Am above was a '99 Z28 or SS in Hugger Orange with the same miles and in the same condition, even though it's not a #1/#2 car I bet it would still be generally more desirable and more valuable than a red or black car of otherwise equal condition. I don't think this can be said for BPM or SGM though.

poncho-mike

When I first saw the SOM cars, I fell in love with the color. When GM announced they were discontinuing the Firebird, I decided to buy a SOM WS6 convertible. I went to a couple of dealerships to price my perfect car, and both wanted to charge me over dealer invoice. I don't know if it was to encourage me to buy off the lot, or if it was due to the specific color combination I wanted. My initial response was to look at other dealers.

Unfortunately, my employer had other plans and announced they were closing my facility in January or February 2002. That killed any plans to buy a new car.

I found a new job in a couple of months, but it took me another five years to find a low mileage SOM WS6 convertible with a 6-spd.

70T/A400

iTrader: (2)

If you are looking for a 1998, Sport Gold Metallic and like automatics here is one worth looking at

http://madison.craigslist.org/cto/5800969233.html

Firebrian

That's a very clean SGM trans am for 80K miles. Too bad they want over 2X what it would be worth if it were red (ie asking $15K). You could buy a similar 2002 SOM TA for a lot less than that. The "fire chicken" decal on the hood (I hope they weren't dumb enough to paint it on) could leave some shadowing behind. That was a mistake, especially if it's been on there for a long time.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

It's definitely in the upper spectrum of condition for an 80k mile, 18 year old example. Nice condition for sure. But the owner is in dream land with that price. I predict it will be for sale for quite some time to come, especially with that hood decal and the possible side-effects of removing it (as mentioned by Firebrian.) Or perhaps he will get lucky and find that needle-in-a-haystack buyer before reality sets in.

That BPM Trans Am I posted above started off at something in the neighborhood of $10-12k. Not as high as this SGM car, but it also has more miles/more blemishes so ultimately a comparably overpriced vehicle. It's been for sale for quite a while.

Bandits96ss

Really kicking myself in the *** for not buying this I wonder if the OP ended up purchasing.....

Firebrian

Maybe it didn't sell and the price is lowered. There are a couple people in the thread that know where the car is. If you're still interested give it a go. But if it was priced around the $15K mark I doubt it lasted.

Bandits96ss

I was one of the individuals that was in contact with the seller it sold for around $14K he said....I have been looking for SOM WS6 and can not find anything and when I do they are even more than that with similar mileage.

The car had exactly the modification list I was looking for but at first I determined that I was going to stick it out for the WS6 becasue I am on the fence about the firehawk looks but now I am kicking myself for not doing it the car being one of like 15 or something.

Firebrian

It's funny. And this has happened to me many times in the past. As soon as I've settled for something less than I wanted....the right car comes along soon after...and at the right price to boot. Uncanny how that has worked over the past 20+ years. Usually after you've missed out on what you consider to be a great bargain....the same thing at a lower price invariably shows up a short time later. If a SOM WS6 is what you really want...then hold out for that. If a killer deal comes along in another car that you don't mind, I still might consider it. It's not like clean, black/red/blue/white/silver WS6 M6's are hard to get rid of once you own them. This winter could bring out some good deals in your region.

70T/A400

iTrader: (2)

Well look what popped up for sale...


http://onslow.craigslist.org/cto/5888325248.html



The 2001 Firehawk that the original poster was looking for. 2nd chances are worth taking.

Firebrian

Asking $17,000 which is certainly on the high side. So much for it "selling" at the $14K level, or selling at all.....unless this is a "new" owner looking to flip. Based on this statement they don't appear to be very well informed on the car: "This car is mildly built, it makes around 450hp to the wheels. I will list the mods below." Mildly built at 450 hp to the wheels? A few more issues on this than I first assumed. It's been around the block a bit. Listed at 60K miles in the first post from early September and now 62,800 in this ad. That would fit with a new owner driving the wheels off it before looking to sell. Would like the low down on this one. New owner/flipper? Or earlier deal at $14K fell through? Seller had 2nd thoughts? I'm leaning towards new owner/flipper. Still rare and desirable though.

70T/A400 continues to dig neat stuff out of the weeds. Well done sir.