RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

All very good points. Despite it being only ~35 miles away from me, I don’t know the owner or the car from any local events, so getting closer to the situation as a spectator would be difficult. I definitely agree that now would not be the time to contact him with an alternative offer, as he’s probably not ready for realistic pricing with such a fresh ad and firm price. Anyway, my personal policy is to not contact sellers who are out to lunch with their pricing as they are usually not reasonable people and the experience is just generally unpleasant with nothing accomplished.

Regardless though, it’s not my most ideal candidate, I’d rather have a Formula or Z28 or SS, so if it’s lost to another buyer I won’t lose any sleep. However it certainly has enough “right” things going for it to be on my short list of potential candidates if the price was (or becomes) reasonable. There just aren't that many early-mid '98s left with low miles, auto trans, and great condition. Being one of my preferred colors is also a huge plus. However if the price doesn’t budge at all, I wouldn’t be surprised to still see it on the market in 2-3 years. But, I might find something else just as good or better in the mean time, and then this seller has lost yet another buyer who would have paid a fair price.

It’s interesting, I paid exactly the same amount as you for my ’98 Z28, except that mine was bought in 2004 from a private party, the original owner with every single document, climate controlled storage, unmodified, and with only 11k miles. The original owner told me the only rain it ever saw was a slight drizzle one time, April 25th 1998, on the way home from the dealer – and the car’s condition was definitely consistent with such a claim and extremely careful usage overall. For that car I was fine with this price, as it was competitive with other local examples of comparable mileage and condition at the time, and I didn’t have to compromise on any options (it was literally the EXACT car that I wanted, to re-create my first brand new 4th gen with my preferred options.)

70T/A400

iTrader: (2)

Here is another that is overpriced and modified.

2001 Pontiac WS6 Black, 6-speed, 16,000 miles.

http://detroit.craigslist.org/mcb/cto/5841571942.html

So you want the original price of the car that is 16 years old and it is modified as well? Get real.

You want to know what you can get with your $31,000.00?

2012-2014 ZL1
2006-2009 C6 Z06
1990-1995 ZR-1
Any C5

These cars are not complex, that is part of their beauty and ease of maintenance. But they have aged and are not refined like the current ones. Technology and car development have come a long way.

No 4th Gen WS6 is worth $30K. I think it will remain unsold for a long time.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

His ad states, "I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU HAVE TO OFFER. PRICE IS 100% FIRM." Again with the "firm" price on a car that represents the absolute most upper end of the pricing spectrum for these cars. Do these sellers not notice that they have some of the highest priced examples on the market? I don't think these folks are really very interested in selling their cars if they are not open to any negotiation at all with a listing price so far beyond the actual market.

There are several old cars I would consider paying $30k+ for (most all of them being various '66-'72 GM products) but, I agree, not a 4th gen WS6 - at least not again (I did pay $30k+ for a new one back in July of 2000.)

Firebrian

That guy is in another world. 5 years ago I walked away from almost that exact same car except it was a 2000 WS6 M6 with 14K miles. The asking price was $16,500 from a dealer...and bone 100% stock short of the motor oil and filter. That car sat on the lot at that price level for 6-8 months too. Not a ton of takers in my region. They kept telling me they had the car sold for $17K to a guy from Alabama....who never could get up there to buy it.

I'd have to disagree about no 4th gen WS6 being worth more than $30K. The most pristine 1999 WS6 Anniversary cars have fetched in the mid to upper $30's at auctions in recent years. Those are typically M6 verts with under 1,000-2,000 miles. There may be some near perfect 100 mile SOM WS6 1LE cars that could get over $30K too....but it might be hard. And there's no problem with the 50 or so GMMG WS6 380 hp Blackbirds fetching $30K if their miles are really low. Some of those cars are essentially 1 offs. The green and white Bobby LaBonte #38 is interesting. While not standard production cars after the GMMG mods, they started out as factory WS6's. I think new they were in the $40K-$50K range assuming you could even buy one.

When I was looking at prices a couple of years ago, you could find 20K-25K mile early 1990's ZR1 Vettes for around $20K-$23K. I saw one for sale at one of my local car shows. Same price as the early Z06's with similar miles. I feel some Firehawks are legitimate $30K cars....though technically they don't qualify for this discussion since they aren't "WS6's." If you had the first 1998 WS6 or the last 2002 WS6 off the assembly line (with bullet-proof paperwork), and still in the wrappers, those could be $30K cars too.

Bandits96ss

Thoughts/suggestions on these suggested above gentleman....

Also scoping out an SOM.....

I wouldnt mind getting some input based on the discussion prior about the one that was listed for $6500 (which might I add seems to have sold I guess).

I found an SOM that is a 75K mile that is a very clean 2nd owner car with only modification being a Borla Catback. (No door panel or dash cracks and no bubbling currently)

My question would be is that everytime I see a 100K+ mile SOM show up it seems everyone suggests that it is not worth more than around $8-9K but everything I see suggests that at 75K miles an SOM WS6 should be around 12-14K. In my opinion that seems to be an extremem depreciation. I hate to but a car for $13k and put 25k miles on it and it only be valued at $8K. This especially when I can buy a black 75K for less than $10K (as seen in the quoted example) and probably be at around the same depreciation (From $10k to $8k versus $13k to $8K) over that mileage. This would suggest that the SOM is only a valid contribution until 100K miles.

Firebrian

I don't see why 100K is a line in the sand for SOM. It should be a continuous and steady depreciation in price from 75K miles to even 125K miles. In my mind it's $650-$800/yr through that entire range. I could see paying the same price for a 100K mile very well preserved SOM WS6 than one at 75K miles with warts. I would buy the 100K mile one.

For me, the condition of the paint drives it as much as the mileage. If the paint has issues or 50K or 75K and needs repair/repainting, that's not worth near the normal SOM premium any more. A completely repainted 100K mile SOM car is no longer of interest to me, except possibly at a small premium like 0-5%....not the typical 15-20% that might apply.

If you can show us examples of decent looking 100K mile SOM WS6's selling for $8K-$9K then I might have to believe it. Right now I'd say that's wishful buyers hoping they can convince an owner to dump one cheap. I you want the maximum impact of the SOM that you'd probably need to buy the car in the 10K-45K mile range and be sure you don't take it past 65K-70K miles.

"I found an SOM that is a 75K mile that is a very clean 2nd owner car with only modification being a Borla Catback. (No door panel or dash cracks and no bubbling currently)."

That would seem to have potential. No door cracks at that many miles? That's in the top 3-5% of all cars. And one minor mod. I wouldn't let the miles deter me if the price is right. And with an M6 that might run you $12K-$14K, if you can find one. Worst case is that even with 125K miles down the road a decent SOM M6 won't be under $8K imo....and they won't be so easy to find either at $9K to $10K.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

I think this has less to do with actual mileage (in terms of a number on the dash) and more to do with anticipated condition and how the car was likely used (based on said mileage.)

For example, a 2001 with 75k miles could have been someone's summer toy every year, seeing only 5k miles per year and spending most of the time in the garage (or at least out of the winter elements.) But a 2002 with ~110k miles has seen ~8k miles per year - which is more suggestive of a daily driver that might have seen winter or tons of harsh sun/UV, etc. Of course, it's also possible that the 75k mile car was someone's daily beater for 5 years and then just sat in a garage for the next decade, in which case either car could be in better or worse condition. But in general, at the current age of these cars, the ones that are over 100k miles have spent a great deal of time as daily drivers (meaning winter in the north and extreme UV in the south and west) and their condition will reflect such. So, at least for me, that's why my default reaction to 100k+ mile examples is to expect something with various types of weathering and fair/below average condition. Of course, there are exceptions to every rule, but without specific inspection of a car in question, my mind will generally assign significantly more value to a ~75k mile LS1 car than a ~110k mile LS1 car.

And on that note, I agree about the value premium of any particular color being reduced by "high mileage" (meaning the condition normally associated with such mileage, or perceived condition based on mileage for those who haven't seen the car in person.) Rarity doesn't matter much on a high mileage average condition daily driver, nor is anybody focused on complete restoration of these cars for profit at the current time (still too many nice original ones at comparatively reasonable prices for the cost of true restoration to be worth it - not to mention a general lack of high quality reproduction items.) So, for the most part, the only folks willing to pay extra money for a "special/high demand" color on a high mileage/fair-or-below condition car are those who plan to keep using it the way it has already been used (meaning not as a collector toy), but they just happen to love the color, therefore "collector" money is mostly kept out of that game.

The 39k mile one looks particularly rough for the mileage. The steering wheel, the driver's seat, the filthy engine bay and dirty wheels - nothing about that car gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling. Why not clean it up a bit for the sales pictures? If they can't be bothered with that, then what else has been neglected? I guess that might be why the price is lower than expected (at least he's not asking top dollar for a dingy car.) If all it needs is a major detailing it could be a good deal. You'd really have to check it out in person before getting excited though.

The 80k mile one actually looks nicer at first glance, in all areas, especially the driver's seat/interior. I would ask for some pictures of where the "clear is peeling". Might be the bubbling roof issue, and he just thinks it's a clear coat problem.

Mappinsj

RPM WS6 still wants to take these cars from their owners.

Bandits96ss

Thanks for the in depth replies....Tbh I like the 80K 02 but the interior is the Taupe/Black combo which isnt for me and I am honestly at the point now that I am not sure saving a 1000 hear or there means not getting exactly what I want.

On that note I found a 2002 SOM WS6 M6 which in reality only comes up a few times a year as there are only 300 some of them out there (assuming there all still alive). Its a 75K mile pretty much unmolsted car with very few imperfections but the guy is asking $14K which seems a little pricey but I am sure with cash it could be bought for $13K. I struggle with this because a few months ago an 02 SOM Firehawk showed up and sold for $14K with only 60K miles. I feel like that is somewhat unreflective of the comparison between the two. What do you guys feel is the going market value for a 75K mile WS6 and what do you think I would be getting in at the right price for.

The more important question is it really worth buying a higher mileage SOM car over a black knowing that the return would never be there. (This assuming that these cars don't end up being collectible which in this case is where I am in today's world)

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

If you're sure that you don't like the interior color, then I would advise against this particular car. I, too, am picky about colors (more so the exterior color though) and have made the mistake of picking ones that I didn't like so much. I wouldn't do that again. The car has to be cheap enough to be flip-worthy for me to consider a color I don't like - because I'm not willing to live with a bad (to me) color as a personal vehicle to keep.

Firebrian is more the expert on SOM pricing so I'll leave the specifics of that to him - I don't follow that color as closely, on WS6 or Firehawk. But in general it doesn't sound like it's priced insanely, unlike some of the other examples in this thread, though it's hard to know without good pictures and an inspection. Region will also matter. But if you can get comparable cars in colors other than SOM for several thousand less in your region, then that's the route I would go - unless of course you are absolutely set on SOM as a must-have. Which leads me to my next point....

A couple of things here:

- Black is still a more popular/universally liked color on cars of this nature IMO. It's just that black is much more available so the supply/demand factor doesn't favor the sort of premium that SOM currently carries. But who knows what might happen if trends shift and people grow tired of orange? Not all rare colors carry much (if any) premium (such as SGM, BPM, BGM, etc.), other than perhaps top tier condition cars that represent a fine collector piece to someone who prioritizes color rarity. But that is lost, or at least mostly lost, once you get into the upper-mid/high mileage examples IMO. SOM and HO are probably somewhat of exceptions to that rule, but only to a degree. As discussed above, you won't get a big premium for an SOM car that's got a ton of daily driver miles and associated weathering/damage/wear.

- How do you plan to use the car? I wouldn't be worried about (or expectant of) the future effect of a rare color on resale value if it's going to be a daily driver. As mentioned above, in the near/mid-term, there is no profit to be made doing a complete restoration on a "rare" colored 4th gen, nor will anyone willing to pay a collector premium be interested in a high mileage/average-or-below condition daily driver example. In other words, unless you're looking for a weekend toy that you plan to keep as nice as the day you bought it, I don't think you're going to get all of that SOM premium back if you sell that 75k mile car ~5 years/50k miles, and lots of daily weathering, down the line. If losing that money is a problem for you, then I'd recommend looking for a more common color that you still like.

AnotherWs6

iTrader: (17)

Lol, he wants to take ALL cars from their owners and then explain to us all in intricate detail why each one is at their individual value point. Cop, judge and jury! Sometimes his posts are too long for me to read but he's always got good points, BUT GODMAN! RPM, how many words per minute do you type.?!?!?!

One comment based on his last one --- when you talk about color and note that black is the most common and therefore possibly not the most valuable (if I am getting that right) I must disagree. Yes, there are some nuts that will pay a premium for SOM. I personally wouldn't even consider buying one BECAUSE of the color. I don't care how nice it looks in the sun in person. There is a reason why so many of these cars were painted black. -----EVIL---- That is what oozes out of a WS6 car. What better color than black to optimize that? When I was searching for my car there were three color options and three only. Black, red or white. White was still iffy, even though I have seen some white and blue striped cars that look really nice. But when I got everything really narrowed down and was actually at the point that I would fly somewhere to pick up one of these things to drive home I asked my wife this question - Darth Vader or Superman? My wife likes red cars, but said without hesitation Darth Vader. I'm not saying it is the best looking car of all time, but there is 100% something about a black LS1 WS6 that is very unique, and very evil looking. I have spent countless hours in my garage with a beer in my hand just staring at mine, saying out loud "Godam you are fng nasty looking." These aren't for everyone, but they are pretty unique. And whether or not the whole ram air thing actually does anything or not, the appearance of a black WS6 cramming air down its bulbous, flared nose, devouring air in the pursuit of speed still impresses me. I think that GM and Pontiac did a great job in general with these cars as they were being faded out. Are they 1960's Ferrarri good in terms of styling? No. But they are very curvy and aggressive looking cars that stand out from the crowd. I find that people are either like "wow, nice transam" or "wow, what is that thing". Why? Because badass is just badass. And nothing is badder than black.

BTW - I owned a calypso green 91 5.0 mustang. Queerest color technically, but I loved it and would love to own another one. But a fox body isn't evil looking so it fit well IMO. Yellow? SOM? Pewter? Screaming for attention. For V6 cars owned by girls. Old people that don't know anything. !!!
End of my own long, rambling post.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Actually, I'm just positioning myself to be the 4th gen F-body version of Galen Govier, should these cars become highly collectible in the future. Old Mopar guys like Firebrian probably know that name.

I do sort of take it as a personal challenge when I see someone post a 4th gen for sale calling it "mint, perfect, showroom new, flawless, nicest in the world, etc." I see these terms, and then I can't help but to find the flaws. The majority of people who use these terms are either not detailed enough to notice the flaws, and/or don't understand the differences and expectations of the concourse/#1 condition cars that such terms actually represent.

In fact, I agree (and have stated in previous discussions) that black is more popular in general and there are likely more people overall who are interested in it. However the supply/demand fundamentals favor SOM at the moment because, although fewer people probably prefer it on the whole vs. black, there just aren't enough nice SOMs to over-satisfy their demand. Hence their value is often pushed higher than a comparable black example. In other words, folks don't *need* to pay more for black thanks to the greater availability of nice examples. And, in terms of SOM value, it's not just about rarity, as there are even rarer colors that don't really have that sort of following or price premium (as mentioned above.) It's just the marketplace matrix of rarity/demand/availability - factors which can also change over time.

Of course, none of this matters at all for the folks who are just as happy (or happier) with some other color. Personally, my favorite is silver - which is about as neutral as it gets in terms of the pricing spectrum for color options.

We have found some common ground here for sure! Some local friends of mine don't understand how I can get any joy from just sitting in the garage and looking at my cars, but that's one of my favorite things to do - and I do it often.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Here is another interesting one. It's been listed 2-3 times before, earlier this year. Every time I see it I wonder how the owner doesn't realize that it isn't a WS6:

http://chicago.craigslist.org/nwc/cto/5864020734.html

There's a picture of the window sticker right in the ad. The WS6 package is clearly not listed, not to mention the fact that the hood is clearly not an OEM WS6 hood (though perhaps he doesn't know this.) The wheels are also the optional P05 chrome 16x8s, original to the car (as per the window sticker) but not available with the WS6 package - and they don't have their original center caps (almost looks like 30th anniversary WS6 center caps, though I don't remember if the center bore was the same on a P05 wheel as a QF6 style wheel.)

I doubt he's actively trying to scam anyone, as the window sticker is right there for everyone to see. But it's clearly not an original WS6, in spite of the WS6 badge (which also appears to be from a '99 30th Anniversary package car.)

Firebrian

Or it's a weak scam where the seller is "hinting" that it's a WS6 in appearance knowing that it is not. In any case it's an erroneous listing. Don't they realize those particular hood stripes didn't appear on any WS6's...except maybe the 2001 black/gold anniv cars? Probably worth under $10K or less. No doubt the seller has been informed over the phone numerous times during the times the car has been advertised for sale.....and that the car is not a WS6....and refuses to educate themselves, assuming all those potential buyers must be trying to scam him! You gotta love it.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

I agree, and was thinking this as well. Surely someone must have pointed this out to him by now, so either he doesn't believe them (and won't investigate for himself) or he just doesn't want to believe them - perhaps because he paid WS6 pricing for it himself?

At least there's enough evidence shown for a cautious buyer to figure out the truth or dig deeper before committing, even if they don't instantly recognize the more subtle discrepancies.

70T/A400

iTrader: (2)

I was talking the other night to a seller about his 1998 Trans Am that was listed as that, NOT a WS6. It has a WS6 hood and asked if it was. He politely replied "No" although there was the hood and 17" QF6 wheels.

In any case I would have checked the door.

I understand WS6's go for more coin, but have a hard time figuring out why. There were less Trans Am's made, the engine didn't have anything special done to it like the difference between a base C4 and a ZR-1 (Now there is a car that people try to clone) and I doubt you could feel any power difference or notice the variable spring rate at the rear (23 to 30 Nm compared to 19.9 Nm) or the front (63 Nm compared to 51 Nm).

Yes the hood and the wheels set it off in the looks department but the price difference between a Trans Am and a WS6 is larger than those components.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

There were no special spring rates on my '00 WS6. I recall the part numbers on those springs matching up to at least one of my Z28s. The front sway bar was the 32mm 1LE piece but the rear was the standard V8 bar (19mm), not the matching 21mm 1LE bar. I bought the car new, and that's how it came.

I've heard before that some of the earlier WS6s (1998 and perhaps some of '99?) came with 1LE springs. I don't know if this is entirely true. I know that my 2000 did not though.

The WS6 package was about $3100 on my '00 car. People have always asked more for them and it's justifiable as they are in higher demand (this is one example of where rarity doesn't equal increased value, meaning the rarity of lower trim levels that offer the same performance - such as base Formula.) Doing a proper clone with OEM parts and a good paint job (hood, if the color/condition of the donor car doesn't match) isn't dirt cheap by any means. The OEM hood is much nicer than most of the aftermarket ones I've seen. Thing is, most people dump all the original WS6 items other than the hood and badge, so that's really all they are paying for. As you've said, there is no performance difference between them and a base model V8 for the money.

Honestly I agree, after having owned one new, I don't see enough value in the package to be worth the premium. I'd much rather save the cash and get a Formula or Z28, but nice 4th gens don't grow on trees and more WS6/SS cars have been set aside and spared daily usage. So those are usually easier to find in really nice shape.

Firebrian

I'd say the different in price is fairly proportional to the original price ($3100) of the WS6 package. For lower mileage specimens (15K-30K) the WS6 brings about half the price of that original package, or about $1500. And that's the thumbrule I apply for figuring out how much more a WS6 is worth vs. a Trans Am or Camaro SS. Generally, it's about 10% more. And as the price of the car goes lower, it comes down to the donor value of the hood and wheels....maybe $500 for a $5,000 car.

In following 1960's Mopar muscle car prices for 15 years I assigned premiums for options like this. It wasn't hard to stack up 30-40% in premiums for similar cars.

Ram air or fresh air hood: 5%
4 speed: 10-15%
black or high impact exterior colors: 5-10%
console 2-3%
power features: ps/pb/pw - 5%
bucket seats: 2-3%
rally dash: 2-3%
hood performance treatment/stripes: 2-3%
original sheet metal/body panels: 5-10%

I don't see why important options can't make a 4th gen more desirable, and even worth me....despite it being more common in the end. 4th gens aren't classic muscle cars...but there are some similarities in what attracts enthusiasts. If you're paying more today for a WS6 you will get that same % premium back when it comes time to sell. Now assuming you never plan to sell and will drive the car to its demise someday....then getting the cheapest LS1 platform you can find is the logical way to go.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

I will only add that it doesn't really matter if the plan is to sell or not; with a lower trim level you'll pay less up front and sell for less down the line. Either way it's a wash. So the extra cash for a higher trim level just isn't worth it unless you love the looks or you're buying a #1 car, without the intent to use it much or at all, and hoping for BIG collector value increases down the line.

But again, it's generally harder to find really nice lower trim level V8 4th gens at this point, so the WS6/SS premium might be necessary for those wanting the convenience of quickly finding a nice example. As common as my Z28 is/was originally, I would say that it's probably more rare, condition wise, than comparably nice SSs today. On the Pontiac side, Formulas were pretty rare even when new, as compared to the total of Trans Ams and Trans Am WS6s. A super nice, ultra low mile Formula would be considerably more rare today than a nice WS6 T/A.....and with no real difference in performance. I'd rather put my cash towards nicer condition than a higher trim level - you can always do a clone later if you really want the look, but a total restoration is so much more difficult and expensive; I'd always rather have the nicest example possible for my money, especially when performance is the same.

70T/A400

iTrader: (2)

This is an appropriately priced Trans Am that has low mileage and is in good condition.

http://limaohio.craigslist.org/cto/5875257854.html