RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

This car is back on Craigslist now:

http://chicago.craigslist.org/nch/cto/5820328332.html

Still has a horribly bent steering wheel, but it looks like somebody at least straightened out the window sweep. It also appears that the new owner is looking to make a quick $5k on the car. Perhaps he doesn't realize that the previous owner tried to sell it for a price like that as well, and had no luck at all? Haha. Dreamers.

Firebrian

Good pick up to see that again. From $11,900 to $16,900.....what's a little arbitrage between friends? Good news for me. Now my car is worth $16,900 as well....lol. The buyer surely realized they were the highest bidder in the nation on Ebay. The advantage is really to the local buyers who can drive only a couple hours at most to actually see and test drive the car. Seller and buyer are only 50 miles apart. The car may not have changed ownership, just another dealer trying to assist in the sale. Car is still in Wisconsin near Racine/Kenosha.

84 miles added to the odometer. I don't think the new owner picked up on the bent steering wheel or they would have surely made an effort to fix it. If the car did really sell.....then too bad an actual enthusiast didn't get this for the $11,900. A lot of collectors prefer to buy their collector cars from the "higher" seller....preferably a "name" dealer who specializes in those types of vehicles. They would never even think of buying it from the actual private owner for less money. They'd rather pay another 10-20% and have a "comfortable" purchase via their favored dealer. I see it in many collectible's markets.

AnotherWs6

iTrader: (17)

17 grand for a fng cloth interior Camaro? Seems nuts to me. Then again, not apples to apple but.....
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chevrolet-Ca...m=282187727745

and....
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chevrolet-Ca...m=182183896106

Then again....
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chevrolet-Ca...m=162162954256

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

I, too, wonder if the car actually sold. This "new" price is eerily similar to the old price from when I first saw this car listed on CL. I agree that it would be odd for the new owner, realizing they are the highest bidder in the nation, to somehow think they can quickly flip it for $5k profit on the local Craigslist page. It's not like they picked the car up for $6500 from some unsuspecting widow or something. Surely if they use CL they must've seen the previous ad and price like I did, thus should realize they are priced out of the market (especially at the end of the season.) Oh well, it takes all types I guess.

Or maybe, like you said, it's just on some sort of consignment now.

I honestly would have gone to look at this one in person for the $11,900 if it had been an auto. It's one of the few LS1 SSs ever built that won't have a bubbling roof. A nice car for sure, but not at $17k.

It gets worse than that. Here's one that will really shock you then:

http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/cto/5762260462.html

Notice that he cut off the prices in that picture of the window sticker. That's likely because he doesn't want people to see the fact that it's currently priced within just a few thousand of the original MSRP with those options. And it's not as special as he implies in terms of options - all that stuff is typical other than the Hurst shifter (RPO BBS.) This is one of the most outrageously priced Z28s I've seen locally. It's a very nice car that has no obvious flaws (beyond the 3 holes in the grille from where the plate bracket was originally mounted), though the pictures leave quite a bit unseen, but he's out to lunch with that asking price. I predict this car will be for sale until the end of time, unless the price comes down.

Firebrian

True enough. Owner claims they specially ordered this one just for them. They got an SS, with leather, and a Hurst short throw shifter. What's so special about that? That would be nothing much different than half of the SS's for that year. No SLP options like a CME/performance exhaust, Auburn, Bilstein, SS grille, SLP mats, etc. The car with 6K miles is probably worth around $16,500 tops for an M6. And I'm not so sure you can even get $16's for these any more. I've seen some equivalent mileage cars in the past 1-2 years go for $17K or $17,500 but those had a loaded SLP content.

Firebrian

When reviewing these auctions you have to look at the actual bids and bidders. That top car was bid on a by a single bidder with 0 Feedback suggesting it's all bogus. 99.99% sure it's all fake or someone's joke bidding.

The 2nd one could have been pushed up by the owner or friends of the owner. Not sure though. I think the bidding is ok with 3 bidders at $11,700 or higher and the last 2 taking it up to $12,900-$13,000. That's a strong price for a 40K mile car imo. But if it was nice, it could have been a fair deal. I'd have figured it for $12K-$12,500.

The 3rd seems like a very good deal at $10,200 for a '99 SS M6 with 30K miles....sure beats the $22K 6K one that RPMWS6 just posted. While the bidding didn't get past $9100, I see no problem with a new bidder just taking the BIN at $10,200, especially if you've been looking for of these in your area. Car looks real clean and has excellent SLP content of Perf exhaust, Bilstein, Auburn, SS grille, chrome wheels, etc....about as good as it gets for a '99 SS M6. That content is worth an extra $1K-$2K to me. AC system appears serviced and newer Baer slotted brakes/rotors. 3 owner car from Virginia, Mass, to Wisconsin. I don't see any red flags. Good buy imo. Odd that is also from the Kenosha, Wisconsin area again....just like that '98 SS flipper car. Same guy recognizing a decent deal? It would not surprise me one bit....I'd almost bet on it. Too bad the bidder into is now hidden on that earlier '98 SS Ebay auction. I'd bet the number of feed backs would match up.

This is going to keep RPMWS6 busy up his way. Some decent cars popping up as fall takes hold. $10,200 seems cheap for a low mileage SS M6...and with a loaded SLP content to boot. I suspect this '99 SS will show up on the flipper board for $12K-$14K very soon...........stay tuned. Not sure why in WI the car's title is now listed as "excluded/exempt." It sat in Taunton, MA for nearly 4 years accumulating only 300 miles. Taunton, MA is a hot bed of activity for used car dealers in this region, especially performance cars....though much of the New England region has poor offerings in FBodies. Would not be surprised if that sat unsold for those years or was owned by a principal in one of those dealerships.

70T/A400

iTrader: (2)

You are right about the amount of cars that are available in the Chicagoland, Wisconsin and Minnesota area. Seems like a hot bed of WS6's there and in Ohio/Pennsylvania and Texas.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

It's not even an SS, just a simple Z28 - which makes it even worse. With those options (t-tops, leather, Hurst, and rear window defogger) the car would have stickered for about $25k when new. He doesn't want to show that because, I'm sure, he'd get people asking him how the car could have only depreciated ~$3k in the last 14 years. Just another dreamer.

Looks like that '99 SS auction ended back in August, I can't say that I've seen it on any of the local pages yet. But I don't watch the '99-'02 cars quite as closely since my bigger interest is another '98, so I may have missed it. However, if it's the same flipper looking for a similarly silly price, I'm sure it would still be for sale - and currently it's not listed here.

I'd really like another '98 to avoid the roof hassles, or a '99+ with proof that it has already been fixed. If I get another one it would be an outdoor car, a spring/summer/fall daily driver, so the roof issue is a big concern. And I really don't need another super low mileage show quality car for this purpose, but at some of these prices it might make more sense to get one of those than a higher mileage car for not much less money. For me, this is a fine line to walk; if the car is too nice I won't be able to drive it with ease, but if it's too rough I won't be willing to put any money into keeping it on the road.

IL does that too after a car hits a certain age, for some reason I can't remember the exact age off the top of my head though....10 years perhaps?

Firebrian

https://ls1tech.com/forums/vehicle-c...-400-rwtq.html

This modified SOM 2002 WS6 M6 w/91K miles out of Florida has been for sale here for 4 months. Lots of interest. Hard to believe it's still unsold at $6500.

70T/A400

iTrader: (2)

This car is going to need at least that amount put into it unless someone wants a car to keep deteriorating.

Paint and clear coat coming out multiple surfaces
Interior damage


It just screams that someone left it outdoors and doesn't care. And then there are the modifications that will scare the majority off.

At this price it should sell.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

I agree with 70T/A400 about the paint and interior damage/wear. That paint issue isn't going to be a "cheap fix" unlike the ad suggests, unless someone has a connection or it just gets another not-so-great-temp-fix. I didn't see any pictures of the roof damage mentioned in the ad, but regardless the car will need a new roof at some point due to the bubbles. I don't know where some folks get their estimates from, but it seems like everything is a "cheap fix to do it right" in a sales ad. Double or triple the listed cost is probably closer to reality for anyone who doesn't own a shop or have a close friend who owns a shop.

Having said that, I am also surprised the car hasn't sold yet with all that interest. It certainly has some issues, but the desireability of the SOM, plus WS6, M6, and the many shoppers looking to save on mods by buying one that's already got some items such as this.....it seems that the price is proper unless there are serious mechanical issues not mentioned in the ad. Perhaps the issue is that buyers aren't able to get in touch with the seller? Looks like a couple have mentioned not being able to make contact in the thread. Not sure what the price was to start, but at this point I wouldn't expect the car to stick around much longer.

Firebrian

The seller might have some specific conditions for purchase/delivery that are turning buyers away.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Another interesting local one to add to the list.....

http://chicago.craigslist.org/nwc/cto/5837891782.html

Looks like this seller has been doing some research about the roof condition, probably here at LS1Tech, and probably past posts from myself and/or Firebrian as I don't think many other people reference this condition with such specific mention of build months. Although some of his assertions about the roof specifics are just speculation, the fact remains that he's certainly correct about the process change resulting in bubbling roofs for most of the LS1 4th gens.

Unfortunately for him, this doesn't translate into increased value to the vast majority of shoppers. I'm one of the few who is specifically looking for this, and would pay more for a '98 than the average shopper, but even *I* wouldn't consider paying $15.5k for an example such as this. That price would be a tough sell even for a WS6 version, all else being the same and especially at this time of year, but this is just a base T/A with auto trans, virtually no optional content (standard wheels & gears), approaching mid-level mileage and, contrary to statements in his ad, its the least desirable year by popular opinion.

Car generally looks very nice in the pictures, with the only obvious flaw being damage to one of the lumbar inflation switches, and the need for a bit more detailing in several spots to be at its best. This car has most of the right factors and options to appeal to me (though I represent the minority here), and its honestly a car that I would be very interested in if the price was reasonable but, at $15.5k firm, "reasonable" is apparently not in the picture.

Bandits96ss

Figured this might be a good place to interject a question....I have become fascinated with CETA WS6's and as I know you guys are the few that follow the LS1 market better than anyone I was wondering what ya'll think would be a good expectation of paying for one with mid-mileage (40K to 75K)?

70T/A400

iTrader: (2)

The seller mentions F-body vs C5 camshafts, not much difference, they both have very little duration.

F-body-0.495"/0.495" 199/210 119.9 LSA

C5-0.479"/0.472" 199/207 117 LSA

I'd take the F-body cam if given a choice.

Roof bubbling and cracks in the door panel make the '98 a winner. But there are downsides as well such as not having the LS6 intake, having EGR, computer tuning and the gray interior versus the black interior.

I would say that car could fetch $10K if everything works and paint is in great condition.

Firebrian

That '98 Firebird with very early production, lower miles and an absence of door panel cracks is no doubt very hard to reproduce. It doesn't make it worth thousands more than a comparable 2002 WS6. Didn't know that early '98's might be exempt from door panel cracks. Good to know if it's true. Here's what the seller stated that doesn't make sense:

"All original
Runs and drives like new
Engine temp runs at 175 all day long
Needs nothing."

There is no such thing as "all original" unless we're talking a car with 0-10,000 miles....and even then filters, oils, and other things get changed. My car had a shock fail in the first year of life in 1999. It wasn't 100% original after that point even though an identical orange factory shock was put back on under warranty. If the tires were changed, it's no longer "all" original. They stopped making those factory tires years ago. I doubt that owner saved the original tires but anything is possible (I still have mine in the basement). Give me 2 hours to look that car over and I'll find 50 or more things that it "needs" to be a truly "needs nothing" car. To need nothing, the first requirement is that it was parked in your garage since 1997 and you never drove it except for 1-2 maintenance runs per year. The last Firebird Trans Am I test drove (Nov 2011) was a 1 owner trade in, silver 2002 A4 with 48K miles. That car was super clean and looked like 20K miles. The engine bay was spotless. No signs of interior wear or door cracks. The dealer was asking $12,500 and that was too high for that time. I wanted to pay $10,500 or possibly $11,000 tops....they wouldn't budge a bit off the bottom line of $11,500. And I know they haven't gone up in value in the past 5 years.

It simply can't drive like new being 19 years old and having 39K miles. That's just impossible unless the car is treated to a NASCAR maintenance regimen. Engine temp runs at 175 all day long? How's that even possible in stock condition with a factory 185 deg thermostat? Either something in the cooling system is not stock or the coolant temp is not really at 175 deg. At the peak of a Virginia summer in 90-100 deg weather, the car would be running at 195-220 deg F (which is actually optimum), especially with the AC running and doing some spirited driving. It's possible the owner of the '98 set the cooling fans to come on at 170-175 deg, but that's not a stock factory setting either. If that car ran those 39K miles at 175 deg coolant temp, I don't think I'd want it due to the risk of sludging/carbon deposits I'd rather have a car that led 90% of its life in the range of 190-210 deg. The roof bubbling issue is not insurmountable as most lower mileage, garaged toys from '98-'02 can avoid the issue if not left out in the sun. My '99 had no roof issues when I bought it and 5 years later, still doesn't. I choose to not leave it parked in the summer sun. If it was something I was forced to do, I'd find a small fabric cover for the sail panel....not too hard to come up with. And early 1998's aren't immune from paint issues. Leave it out the hot sun day after day for years and you can probably get the clear coat to peel on the hood, roof, and spoiler.

Bandits96ss

While on topic of OVERPRICED...lets maybe look at what in my opinion seem like (2) really good deals albeit usually to good to be true....

2002 WS6 M6 80K Miles - $8800 (Note the rarier although prob less desired taupe)
http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/cto/5830877998.html

2000 WS6 M6 39K Miles - $9500 (Seems like it was painted or something dont know if I believe this one)
http://delaware.craigslist.org/cto/5829896086.html

Currently in contact with both...been waiting for an SOM but cant pass this up

Firebrian

The last CETA in my area was 2 years ago and it sold for around $16K. It had 40K miles, looked nice, and I think was an M6. They aren't any more money today. Subtract or add $650-$800 for every 10K mileage change. Hard to find these things priced under around $12K unless the mileage is WAY up there or they were abused. A clean 40K-75K mile one should be obtainable in the $13K-$16,500 range. You just might be able to snag one for a bit less if the winter doldrums hit hard. It's easier to find one of these with 0-30K miles than it is for 40K-75K miles. Mint coupes with 10K-15K miles might be buyable for $18K-$20K. 4 yrs back a dealer in my area had a 12K M6 CETA for $19,500. I almost considered that car. It sold fairly quickly as I recall.

There's no shortage of these as they frequently hit the market. The yellow paint and graphics aren't everyone's cup of tea. I think they're cool though.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

I've heard that story before as well, that a handful of '98s got the C5 cam for a short while during '98 production. It's mostly a lateral move IMO, but the biggest benefit to the C5 cam was the fact it didn't need an EGR. Just one less thing to clutter the engine bay and block flow in the intake. However that benefit only applies to C5s, as factory EGR delete was not on the menu for F-body - even those few '98s that got a C5 cam unexpectedly.

I definitely agree here. As far as the PCM and interior color, I'm basically indifferent on those. But the LS6 intake/no EGR is nice on the '01+ cars - though not nice enough to cancel out the negative effect of the roof issue IMO.

That's exactly the number I had in my head as well. I'd be shocked if anyone would actually come close to that "firm" $15.5k price. The fundamentals just aren't there for such a price. If the seller were to place this car on Ebay, I think the max bid would be an eye opener for him.

I'm not an authority on the exact break point of production for when door panel cracks became an issue, but I've heard other early '98 owners claim the same thing. And they too have no cracks. So there must be something to it.



Most individuals use the term "needs nothing" the same as they use the term "mint". These are terms that no longer have any real meaning - other than to suggest that the car is "better than other similar examples [which that owner has seen.]"

Agreed. The stock t-stat was the same from '98-'02, all of them were 86°C units (187°F.) The coolest post-warm up running temps you'll see from the stock t-stat, regardless of fan settings, is about 192-194° at steady-state cruising in cool weather. I've confirmed that myself with many Autotap logs over the years with mine. Coolant temps might get a bit lower in extremely cold winter conditions, but such readings wouldn't even apply to a summer-only "toy" type car.

I think the confusion is due to the '98 water temp gauge. It actually moves around as the fans cycle, unlike the '99+ gauge that is mostly a dummy between the temps of ~185-235. He's likely guesstimating the temp at "175" based on where the needle sits during steady cruising ('98 temp gauge is also marked differently from the '99+ cars, with the lower end of the gauge starting at 160°.)

To me, the roof issue is a big concern. Especially due to the fact that any additional one that I buy will be a spring/summer/fall daily driver - so it will see plenty of sun. But even as a show car/garage queen, I'd hate to be constantly concerned about events in the sun or having the car out during the height of daytime heating. It's not as bad for the Formulas and T/As with lighter, body colored roofs. In fact, a white roof car may never see a serious problem under average conditions. But with a black roof V8 Camaro it doesn't take much time in the sun to start seeing issues. Overall, I definitely place more value on NOT having to replace the roof than most, but that doesn't mean I'd pay ~$5000 more than the car is worth. So I'm out on this one. Too bad since it's so close to home.

As for peeling clear coat, that's really a non-issue if you use a good sealant (synthetic wax) a couple times per year. My '02 sat outside, often in full sun, for most of it's life between 2001 and 2014, and the upper surfaces were still nice and glossy. No cracked dash either (I always used 303 Aerospace on that.)

I will defer to Firebrian's comments on this topic. I don't really follow the CETA pricing at all since there is zero chance of me ever buying one (I severely dislike the color and graphics.)

Firebrian

If that seller is close to you, it might be worthwhile to strike up a relationship. Let's face it, there might not be anyone in the country who appreciates a solid, early 1998 LS1 more than you. The seller will eventually figure out what their car is worth. And if you're lucky, early tire kickers will take the brunt of the blows for telling them the truth on the value of their car. That would allow you at some point to come to the "rescue" and pay a bit more than those early "kickers" and "flippers." Someday that car might be yours. It just might take 2-3 years for the seller to finally accept the situation. It's only been advertised for a day.

As the 2nd owner it's unlikely they could have paid over $15K for that car...even back in 2001. When I bought my 1998 Z28 A4 with 22K miles back in 2001 I forked over $14,000 to a dealership. And that was probably strong money for that time. It's no doubt a sweet '98 for what it is. And it's harder to find one of those than it is a 2002 SOM WS6 with 40K miles. For all we know, this owner has had it a short time with the intention of flipping it....and is trolling for suckers. They probably bought the car in the past 10 years for something in the $8K-$12K range. Can't imagine why they think it's worth more today than what they paid for it. The ad reads like typical dealer puffery....not what an actual owner would claim about their ride.