RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

I agree with everything Firebrian wrote above regarding pricing, some very good and accurate points. You can certainly ask $20k, but you likely won't get any action at that price point and might scare off several buyers who would otherwise be serious. I wouldn't expect to get more than about ~$15k out of a car such as this, plus or minus $1,000 depending on location, so I would start off just a bit above that. As Firebrian pointed out above, most shoppers are looking for 2001-02 cars as they are generally seen as more desirable (except to myself and a handful of others who are particularly mindful of the roof concerns - to me, your early '98 is more desirable than any other year since I wouldn't ever have to replace the roof.) I too have seen several SS cars comparable to this one stay for sale for years at prices in the high teens/low 20s, they just don't move at that price in the recent market. It's even worse for the Z28s; mine is a 17k mile example that has consistently scored 97 points and is show prepped at all times, and I'd probably be lucky to get $10k for it....not that I can complain, that's only 28% less than I paid for it 13 years ago, or a $300/year loss.

dojob

Paid $12,500 for mine. Feb 2016. 13k mi. No modifications
https://ls1tech.com/forums/chevrolet...ld-thread.html

Firebrian

That came along real nice. And you're putting some well-deserved miles on it.

NC01TA

novawagonmaster, I am going to repeat myself but I don't want you to sell too low. I think Firebrian stole his car. That was some great price! I see no reason why your car would be valued 'thousands' less than the example I've listed below that sold a few months ago. Even $3k less would net you over $17k. There is no auction commission with your car.
As I've stated over the many years here, ebay and CL are generally not good indicators of what is happening with pristine low mileage examples of any car. We can't track 'private sales' but they occur frequently as I've experienced living and breathing collector cars every show season for decades. It's true here in the southeastern US anyway. When I showed one of my cars at a Hemmings show this past summer in Vermont I didn't feel things were that much different there either. I spoke with many car owners.
I also want to state that Mecum is not like Barrett Jackson where bidders have more cents than sense in many instances. Mecum sells thousands and thousands of cars every year to people in all walks of life. IMO, this is indeed real world pricing if you have patience. I'm the last person on the planet that wants to build up 'too high' pricing expectations as it's a real disservice to sellers, but I stick with my original pricing thoughts on this. I personally would pay what I said before (and I would pay extra for a hardtop vs T as dojob indicated in his post). My car collector neighbor (12 cars) would too for a car with these miles. That means that others would too. Sub 10,000 miles cars are important to collectors. It's a magical number to be under 10k. Why?? Who knows. I personally know too many collectors that feel this way. Even buyers looking for a good used car would be quite pleased to find your car available for $15K if you decided to go that low. I don't think you have to. Again, best of luck with your eventual sale. Please keep us posted if you would when the sale occurs. It helps immensely for folks dispensing advice. I sure want to know if I'm wrong on this. Thanks!

https://www.mecum.com/lots/CH1016-25...camaro-ss-slp/ $19,500 + commission

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

I'm surprised this car was presented with such a dirty engine bay! That's shameful for a ~5k mile car, IMO. That alone would have lowered my bid; if an owner can't be bothered to even lightly detail an engine bay on such a rarely driven car, then it's likely that fluids and such have been equally neglected. Someone definitely overpaid for that car IMO.

On the other hand, there are examples such as this:

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/d...4730/overview/

This one is under 5k miles, and has been listed at $18k for a year or two at least. No action it seems. Granted, it's an auto, and also not 100% stock (but neither is the OP's car - we've also discovered some other minor mods via PM discussion), but I think it will have to come down a couple thousand or more to finally get sold.

Here is an even better example that I've seen listed for quite some time:

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/d...7920/overview/

$18.9k at 4,900 miles from a dealer, this is a much more desirable 2002 model with a host of highly desirable SLP options and totally stock. Also a manual. The condition appears to be impeccable, probably one of the nicest ones I've seen since these cars were new, but even a dealer can't move this car at $18.9k.

Here's another:

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/d...1575/overview/

Looks like a small dealer, but I've seen it around for a while. 7k miles, manual, additional SLP options and also appears totally stock, excellent condition - $16,500. Pewter is not as desirable as bright red, but the Ebony interior is generally more desirable than the '98-'99 interior colors.

"Right place, right time" can definitely happen in both directions (under priced deals and overpriced priced sales), but it's also a matter of how long one is willing to hold out for a sale. And, again, there are shoppers such as myself who won't even contact a seller if the asking price is more than about 15-20% above what the car is really worth. I don't agree about Ebay being a poor reference for value of collector grade vehicles, I think it's probably one of the better resources due to its broad accessibility (unless we're talking about ultra rare cars that generally don't appear for sale outside of events such as B-J, etc.) I don't think it's fair to call those Ebay sales the "exception" while considering sales from Mecum to be more the rule. Not to mention those examples on Cars.com that are just as nice or nicer and equally (or more) desirable, but aren't selling, even at dealers, for prices that are less than the above quoted auction.

If it were mine, I wouldn't be comfortable listing the OP's car any higher than ~$18k. I don't know his location, so the price may have to be adjusted a bit depending on the region. Even then, it may take a reduction to get it sold - or he could get lucky and move it right away. Either way, I've seen enough comparable examples in that price range stay for sale for long enough that I can't, in good conscious, recommend a higher price.

novawagonmaster

Thaks guys, good points on all sides.
As for that 19.5k Mecum car, the very first thing I noticed was how "dirty" the engine bay was. Mine was cleaner than that before I cleaned it! As stated above, we have discovered that the original owner performed a couple simple mods. Two are simply add-ons that can be easily removed (strut tower brace and Corvete fuel rail covers). It has an aftermarket air box lid and removed silencer. This is also easily corrected. RPMWS6 noticed the throttle body did not have the coolant hoses hooked up. Lastly, the stock grille has been altered with a horizontal billet insert. Again, nothing that cannot be reversed. When the car goes up for sale, the only alteration will be the GMMG exhaust.

I really appreciate all of the feedback. All very helpful!
Thanks,
Jon

Firebrian

I certainly didn't steal my 1999 SS w/12K miles in January 2012 off Ebay, though no doubt the winter time purchase didn't help the seller any. Fwiw, they had a $10,000 min bid on the car and were intent to let it go. I outbid anyone in the country who was interested. The owner told me that he a couple of somewhat local people call him up on the car but no one but me actually came to test drive it. I was lucky enough that it was only 50 miles away in order to take a test drive before the auction ended. Based on the fact that it had an undisclosed AC leak (unverifiable at 25 deg F during the test drive) that was a $600-$800 repair that should have been on their dime, not mine. The car was 98% stock with only an LS1 motorsports air lid, and GM supplied/Hurst short throw shifter added. Those were done right after delivery in 1999. The original pieces came with the car and basically look new. They also tossed in an extra set of brand new SS mats (I use those only for shows). Not sure where it came from but they had a rear cargo mat made up with the car's SLP build #1449, a nice touch. But, RPM WS6's point of owners not cleaning their engine bays is something that should have hit me on my car. The engine bay in my car was rather filthy and surely never cleaned once in 13 yrs. I'll have to give that more weight next time around. I spent a weekend detailing the car a few months after I bought it. Some people don't like to clean....and many don't like to change fluids if there's a "reason" not to. And 100K expected coolant life is not a "reason."

So after the AC and changing all the fluids I was at the $13,000 level. Other than engine oil, I didn't think they had done any fluid changes in 13 years. If I could do it over again, I'd have stuck with a lower mileage WS6 A4, the car I was originally after. Like many buyers, I jumped at the first "good" deal, even though it wasn't exactly what I wanted. At least with the '99 SS, it was low enough in price to reduce the overall risk and future depreciation.

At the time I was looking for an Fbody there were numerous very good deals that went down from Virginia to Maine. Here's some of cars I inquired about or were sold right out from under me as I joined the hunt on them. These were all real buys from 2011-2012.

2000 Firehawk M6 hardtop pewter 28K miles (1 of 6 built) -$12,000-$12,500. This was auctioned on Ebay 3X by Harte Honda, East Haven, CT and failed to sell in the $12K to $13K range. They had a tough time selling this. I was a RIP at $12K. In winter no less.

1998 WS6 A4 red 38K miles SOTL still on the car, New Hampshire private party -$10,800 asking price. Good value.

2000 WS6 M6 black 14K - 1 owner - 100% stock - $16,750 (I test drove that one). The most quiet 6 speed I test drove.

2001 WS6 A4 vert NBM 12K miles - 2 owner - offered to me for $17,500. Unfortunately, just after I bought my SS.

2002 LE Camaro SS M6 vert 12K miles - $19,950

2002 Camaro SS A4 SOM stock, with 44K miles at $10,500. From a too cheap to pass up stand point this seemed like the best deal for me. But trying to work the logistics of a 500 mile trip to upstate NY just proved too much. The car took the owner months to sell.

1998 WS6 A4 white - 14,000 miles - $14,500, out of Maryland. It had been advertised for a few weeks when I finally called on it. It had just sold. I was ready to run down there and buy it if necessary. Good bang for the buck and I liked the low production/survival rate of the 1998's. White is a neat color in these.

**2002 Camaro SS A4 SOM vert 4K miles - $18,500. I regret not getting out to Ohio to seal the deal on this one. They offered the car at $22K-$24K for almost a year on Autotrader.com. Then one day I saw it listed in the $18K's and nearly gagged. I called that dealership and the price drop was for real. But, winter was closing in and long distance deals have never worked out for me. There were enough photos of that car on the internet to suggest it was the real deal. It was after I already bought my SS but I was more than willing to trade up. I think this was during late fall of 2012.

Those were typical offerings in late 2011 through 2012. I suspect that the 2008-2010 recession affected collector car prices quite a bit. They seemed to bottom right around the time I was looking. I ended up buying the 1999 SS with 12K miles because it was close, it was more depreciated than the 2001/2002 cars, and it was about $4K cheaper at that time than comparable WS6 M6's. And a lesson I learned was that even though the owner was a classic/modern performance car buff and/or collector, his routine maintenance, especially on fluids, seemed to be lacking on this Camaro. Low miles don't guarantee anything beyond....well, low miles. The real question is are prices higher today than in 2012...and should they be for anything except for the most pristine, original, low production cars?

I've watched the major auto auctions since 1993 and have never felt they were an accurate judge of the cars I was looking for. It's a 1 on 1 battle lasting only minutes at most, and often the bidders get caught up with showing the other guy they have bigger kahunas. No doubt the seller of that Camaro at $19,500 is beaming from ear to ear....with commish the new owner is over $20K (unless a special deal was arranged). And it wouldn't surprise me one bit if the buyer is a dealer looking to place it with a customer who has something like that on their want list. Collectors love to buy from dealers who "are sure" a car was worth X, or they wouldn't have bought it. I am quite familiar with national level auctions as I have done them in other collectibles for the past 40 years. I've been a consignor a dozen or so times. I am quite familiar with the tactics from buyer's fees, and shill bidding. Sometimes the house and owner (or their buddies) work an agreement to show a car selling....when it really didn't. The ownership didn't change. But now the retailer buyer thinks there's an actual sale occurring at that new "shilled" level.

And from my earlier post in this thread, why did that 1999 silver SS A4 out of New York with 9500 miles listed on Autotrader in 2015-2016 for $13,500 just not go anywhere. I'm not even sure it even ever sold. One owner car, apparently taken care of. I just can't see $18K-$20K for a common, 5K-10K mile SS when this silver '99 couldn't even find $13,500 to a national audience. Was the problem it being stuck in upstate New York?

NC01TA

^^ It's possible about location on the silver $13,500 car but it also may have been misrepresented which is always a real possibility, along with some of the cars being mentioned sitting and not selling. We've all been down that road. Disappointment after disappointment even on 'like new' rides.
With novawagonmaster being upfront and most likely 'in the know' I feel his car is an accurately detailed example although we all want to see pics (hint, hint). I would gladly pay him an extra premium if I was personally looking for a sub 10k miles 6 speed red SS instead of searching all over the country to find a better deal. Not too much extra but.... That's me anyway. Searching is fun but how many similar examples are out there for the money being suggested here? Sometimes you have to look at the 'big' picture instead of insisting on finding the exact car you want at the perfect price. You may wait for months and months. Life is too short.
By the way, that $19,500 Mecum car turned up in this month's Hemmings. I'm sure it's the same one. Same miles, everything I believe. Price?? Hold on!! $25,000 That would make novawagonmaster car a bargain.

NC01TA

RPM WS6, that navy blue 2002 is amazing!! I would own that car in a heartbeat at $17-$18k. I'm sure the dealer would accept. Maybe I enjoy these F-bodies too much. I can't be alone in that thinking. I can't imagine paying $18k for a new cheap 2017 car when I could have that Camaro in my garage. It's not even a question for me. I would want the SS.

** Just wanted to add about ebay. I respectfully disagree. With dealers paying flat fees for monthly listings with no added charge for 'completed' sales, we have no idea what is actually sold. You and I have to pay a $125 fee for a successful sale. We can't use shill bidding or we could get stuck with fees. Dealers don't. We have no idea whatsoever what sold or didn't sell on ebay. It's an inaccurate gauge IMO. Even with private party sales we have no idea what happened after the supposed sale. Someone may have backed out or simply not had the money or whatever. With auction sites, from Tom Mack to B-J, when they say SOLD, It's SOLD! You can't back out, not from what I've seen. That's real pricing for the cars we are talking about. I can't comment on $50k + cars, nor 6 figure cars, as that is out of my league and when the 'cents over sense' kicks in.

dojob

Buying and selling enthusiast cars follows what the market commands... supply and demand.

KBB on my car in Feb. was $9,xxx. Asking price was $17,xxx. I paid $12,500. The inflated price was justified simply... unmodified, no signs of wear/abuse inside and out, no paint defects, undercarriage was spotless, maintenance records, 20 min. from my home.

Dealer and myself spoke openly and realistically on the price and came to terms with the cash sale.

NC01TA

^^ That was a nice job negotiating. Not easily accomplished at most dealers.

novawagonmaster

I told myself I wasn't going to post any pics until the car was suitably returned to stock and detailed to my satisfaction. I did take just a couple pics with my phone the evening it rolled off the tow truck at my house. This was before I began cleaning it up or making any changes back to stock.

dojob

Nice. Simplistic details to return it to showroom appearance, easily done. Looks good.

-Roof and sail panel is black on all v8 cars (except B4C examples)
-Mirrors are black on 1998's
-STB
-Air lid
-Coil covers
-Grille

As long as that painted sail panel and the mirrors are done correctly, I'd be loving that car... Hardtops and painted sail panels look so clean and crisp.

novawagonmaster

Glad I posted the pics. I was not aware of the painted sail panels and mirrors. Although when I was looking at the Mecum car above, I did notice it had black sail panels and mirrors. Just didn't pay it any further attention thinking it might have been a 98 vs 99 thing or maybe because it had t-tops. Thank you for pointing it out!

dojob

Roof too. I initially forgot to mention that.

Regardless, still fabulous example. And to me... even more desirable. Really enjoy the monotone finish

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

novawagonmaster, I did receive your most recent PM but I'll just reply to everything here so I don't have to write two different posts....

Yes, dojob is correct about the roof and mirrors. All 1998 and 1999 V8 Camaros have a black roof and black mirrors unless they are a B4C service vehicle. The D82 monochromatic roof/mirror option was no longer available on Z28 or SS in 1998 and beyond (exception being the 35th LE, which has a body colored roof as part of the LE package.) However, starting in model year 2000 the mirrors did switch to body color for all V8 examples.

This modification is obviously not easily reversed and won't appeal to a "factory original only" type collector, but plenty of others may like it. IMO though, something like this takes the car out of the highest possible "collector" price tier.

In your PM you asked about the new grille that you plan to install, an SLP piece. I'm not sure which one you're referring to though, is it the optional Y2Y "SS" grille (with an SS logo on the center), or the aftermarket SLP version with a Chevy Bowtie in the middle? You asked my opinion about logo color....if you're going with an SS grille, I'd match the SS badges on the fenders (just as SLP would have) and use silver outlined badges for a red car. If it's the Bowtie version, I'd go with red (which is how they came from SLP when ordered as an aftermarket piece.)

I would argue that the inflated price was not justified as they were clearly unable to move the car at anything close to $17k. Good job on getting a dealer to see reality and come down to something reasonable! I think the final price you paid was fair for a dealer car of those specs.

Dave, I definitely agree here. I just wanted to add that this exact line of thinking works both ways though. Ultimately, the risk of significantly overpricing a vehicle is that buyers such as myself won't even bother to make contact. Said buyers then move on to more reasonably priced examples, and are then out of the market. The seller can obviously lower their price, but it may be awhile before new interested parties are found (since we're talking about collector cars/weekend toys here, not basic daily drivers - not too many people beating down doors to pick up low mile 4th gens in the grand scheme of the automotive market.) I would argue that life is too short to have a car for sale for years on end (as some of the ads posted above have been/were), too short to sit and wait for that perfect buyer who will overpay...but who may never come. For a dealer, this is obviously much less of a concern, but for private enthusiasts there is usually an opportunity cost involved here (taking up valuable space, delaying the purchase of something you'd rather have, etc.)

I absolutely agree about how nice this one is, in fact it's so nice that I wouldn't be able to bring myself to drive it! It's literally been years since I've seen one this nice, this stock, and this highly optioned. The fact that it's been for sale for quite some time is why I feel it's a good benchmark of the upper limit for pricing. Why has it not sold at $18.9k if that's a "fair" value? Nothing about this car is undesirable - it's got everything that a collector would want and everything that is most popular. I could understand if it was priced at some nonsense number like $25k that you mentioned for that '99 SS above (that is truly an example of someone who's a dreamer), but this isn't the case here at all. If that car can't move at a listing price of $18-19k, and it's truly at the top tier of examples (both in condition, model year and optional content), then I think it's safe to say that anyone looking to move an example of lesser desirability in a reasonable time frame will have to list at a price below that. Of course, that "right place, right time" can always happen - I've just never been one to count on that.

novawagonmaster

It is the Bowtie version. While not a stock piece, I feel it's a much better fit for this particular car than the billet grille that is currently on there. Thanks for the tips on getting the paint colors right!

So non stock item tally should end up with:
Painted roof and mirrors.
GMMG exhaust.
SLP Bowtie grille.

Not too bad, I suppose.

dojob

I was referring to my inflated purchase price ($12,500) compared to book value ($9,xxx) and why i justified it, as I listed. Not the silly $17,000 they advertised it at. They too found the asking price laughable.

Firebrian

Surprise, surprise, a dealer flipper. I just had a feeling. Those guys operate in a different world than us. They rely on uninformed buyers to take big "wins" off their hands. And they have a habit of finding them since they advertise nationally and can ship to your door. All you need is the money, they'll do all the rest. Easy peasy.

Was it a bargain at $20K? Only if you're the dealer than can flip it for a 10-20% profit. And for all we know the car was not really sold. It could have been consigned to the current dealer while giving Mecum 5% to run it through....and get a price. The $20K price was only good if you know both parties involved and that real money exchanged hands. There's just no way to know. Don't believe for a second that a national auto auction "sold" means anything more than it was the highest bid placed...and not necessarily by a living human being who wants to own it. I've seen this gambit done before as a car supposedly sells strong at auction...and entices a retail buyer to step up since he figures dealer "X" paid $20K so what's 10-15% more? If they are well enough off, the $5K to $8K loss could mean nothing to them. And it should be nothing if they're millionaires. Maybe a little toy to give to Junior on his 18th birthday or high school graduation?

dojob

This is every and any retailer... car dealers, grocery stores, clothing outlets, coffee shops, etc.. etc...