GimmeLSx

iTrader: (4)

Both are ultra low mileage examples but both have been for sale off and on for quite a while.

http://flint.craigslist.org/cto/5806492306.html


http://detroit.craigslist.org/mcb/cto/5752885469.html

Mappinsj

wow those are extremely low miles

GimmeLSx

iTrader: (4)

They sure are. I would be interested in the '98 Formula if he was anywhere near a realistic asking price.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Yeah, I don't think so.

"100 disc CD changer", " WS6 simply means , W= Wheels ( chrome rims ) S= suspension 6= 6 speed manual"

LOL. I wouldn't call this guy even if it was the last LS1 car for sale in the nation.

Horribly cracked door panels and a filthy engine bay at only 4k miles don't inspire me to do anything more than cringe and shake my head at that price. The cowl panel is considerably faded for such low miles. Paint is in rough shape too, tons of swirls and the ram air decals are missing from the hood. Wheel well liners look to be as whited-out as anything I've seen after a Chicago winter. Water all over the interior door panel after a wash? Sloppy. I've seen cars with 50k miles that looked better in all those areas.

As for the price on the '98 Formula WS6....nothing much to say here, other than this being a person who doesn't really want to sell their car. Looks like a nice car, much better presented even though there are few pictures. It's well above original MSRP and I don't think there is any precedent for a price like that on such an example. The price will need to come down by at least $10k if he's interested in getting buyers who will make serious offers.

AnotherWs6

iTrader: (17)

Lol, what dick......

( WS6 simply means , W= Wheels ( chrome rims ) S= suspension 6= 6 speed manual

Double lol, other guy is a dick too......
The car also has the rare options of a 6-way power seat, leather, and Monsoon stereo

Yeah, that first one, holy S dude. There is dirt on/in the back seat. Who the F doesn't WIPE THE MASSIVE AMOUNT OF WATER off of the door panels. Those tires are practically white as well. That thing either has a ton of miles or it has sat outside for a long, long time. And that engine, at 4K miles? 4K miles of what, driving in the desert?

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Well, being a Formula, the leather might have been a somewhat rare option. Most had cloth, though at WS6 trim level I'm sure leather was more common.

But there are worse things in his description, such as this:

"This was the first year for the WS6 package on a Formula with the LS1 engine, which had larger injectors, a more performance-orientated CPU tune, and a one-year only, low restriction / high flow exhaust system."

Larger injectors? Nope, every '98 LS1 had the same size injectors; Z28, Formula, SS, Trans Am, WS6, doesn't matter. Same for the tune - nothing specific to WS6 at all. However it is true that injector size was decreased for the '99-'00 models, but again this has nothing to do with it being a WS6 - only that it's a '98 LS1.

But that other one is really bad, though not bad enough to seem like he's going for a "best of Craigslist" ad, which tells me that he must actually believe what he wrote. Even worse.

GimmeLSx

iTrader: (4)

Yeah, I almost spit coffee all over my computer while reading the description of the first one. With all those issues, the low mileage claim seems rather suspect. It could be interesting to find out the story on that one.

I agree that the second one is about $10,000 overpriced. I'd be a buyer at around $20k or so if it checked out well in person.

Firebrian

Before I checked the pictures on that WS6 vert I figured it was into the $20K's being a 5K mile 6 speed. Then the pictures made it look like a 75K miles in some areas. NEVER seen such a low mileage car looking so lousy. Double door panel cracks? I don't think I've ever seen that on any WS6, let alone a 5K mile car. Must have been a lot of hard driving over bad roads with the top down to do that. Makes you wonder if the instrument panel wasn't swapped out or something. Seen its share of Flint, Michigan winter driving too.

No one has ever put a clean rag and soap/water to that engine bay. Not a crime though. When I got my car from the orig owner at 12K miles they hadn't ever cleaned the dust off either. But mine was nowhere near like this one. Low mile verts like this aren't that common to run across. It's unfortunate this one has been neglected and/or abused is some way. Someone will be mesmerized by the low miles though. I wouldn't pay $18K unless I was confident the mileage was correct and everything but the door panel cracks could be easily corrected. Might take $1K-$2K in paint work, new tires, and extreme detailing to bring this car back.

But to show you how badly a car with low miles can deteriorate I will mention a 31K miles, 1 owner, black 2001 WS6 M6 I personally saw and test drove in 2011. The car had been left outside quite often all year round including winters...and often driven around a muddy farm. The entire underside of the car was caked in hard mud. The paint was ruined with peeling clear coat and bubbling issues on hood, roof, upper quarters, and spoiler. Raw fiberglass chunks were exposed in most of those area, especially on the spoiler and quarters. The driver's seat was flattened like a pan cake and ripped up. The driver's carpet was heavily stained and had a boot heel hole worn clean through. The tires were likely the second set and near death. 95% bald with at least 1 of them out of round/warped and making thunking noises on every revolution. Those were the cosmetics.

On the mechanicals the driver so beat on this car they by the end of the 3 yr warranty period in 2004 (16K miles) they had been through 2 sets of brakes and exhaust pipes/mufflers/cats. The clutch and shifter had been replaced. Window motors and side mirrors replaced. The engine had been gone into and rod bearings replaced under warranty. There was much more but that's all I remember at the moment. Basically, most every system was broken into under warranty except trans and rear end. The car was a basket case...and the CarFax and GM service history documented it all. In the end, the Connecticut dealership that took this on trade wholesaled it to a small performance shop in Rhode Island. They did the necessary cosmetics to make it look mostly like a 31K mile car. Still, you can't really fix 10 years of abuse. This was a beater and might as well have had 131K miles based on appearance. I wonder who owns this car now and if they are aware of the car's full history? The above 5K mile care got nowhere near this point. But mileage isn't always the only determinant....and can fool you.

Mappinsj

man RPM WS6 has some disdain for that Craigslist poster. You would love to repo that car from such a shitty owner wouldn't you.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Haha.

Several things about that ad are troublesome. First, there is blatant use of the MUS tacit (Make Up ****) with the "definition" for WS6. It's not like what he posted is even some sort of common misconception or easily found rumor - it's total garbage that was made up on the spot. Something like this speaks volumes about the character of the seller. Why even make that statement? And a 100-disc CD changer was a factory option? Has any vehicle ever offered such an option? It would look like a suitcase in the trunk.

As Firebrian said above, it seems hard to believe this mileage is even correct based on the condition in some aspects. An example with this sort of mileage should show almost zero wear of any kind if it was cared for properly. And more importantly, who would want such a low mileage car for such a high premium when it's not even as nice as some examples with 10 times more mileage? $28k is a few thousand too much even if the car was absolutely perfect - and this one is nowhere near. Every aspect of this car would need major detailing/correction just to get it cosmetically correct for the mileage (no telling what mechanical issues it might have), that's a lot of labor and I can't imagine paying top dollar (and beyond in this case) and then having to do all that work.

Buying a used car, no matter how much inspection you do, inherently requires a certain leap of faith, so with red flags like this it's better to just walk away. The seller is either clueless, or trying to pull a con, or some combination of the two.

As for the guy with the Formula, he's just a dreamer. Yeah, there are a couple technical mistakes with his ad/description as mentioned above, but it's nothing that stands out as making him look like a total goof. The only red flag I see there is a price which suggests a person who doesn't really want to sell their car.

GimmeLSx

iTrader: (4)

I had a brief conversation with the guy who posted the vert. He claims his wife is the original owner, having bought it new and that the miles are actual. And to put it mildly, he does seem absolutely clueless. On the bright side, he did say they would take a lot less than the asking price after I suggested it was not realistic even if the car was in showroom new condition.

Firebrian

Here's a 19K mile 1998 NBM SS M6 that just sold on Ebay for $11,900. A pretty reasonable price. Probably has original tires. Not sure what they mean about replacing rear bumper after drilling for plates??? I'm sure this is not the best '98 SS in the country, or probably even close to it. A nice looking car though. Still has the single on the left exhaust.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1998-Chevrolet-Camaro-Z28-SS-/252522032673?forcerrptr=true&hash=item3acb7c6e21%3Ag%3AqPYAAOSwMgdXx2Me&item=252522032673&nma=true&si=qAMImNf5JRTwZZKX6KS46NcVOjo%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Firebrian

Here's a black 1999 SS M6 with 30K miles selling for $10,200. These have dropped in price more than I thought this year. I see an 82K mile 2000 SS M6 selling for $7600. You might as well fork over the extra $3K-$4K and get a much lower mileage vehicle. This might make me change what I'm doing with my own 1999 SS M6. With these going for so little there's no real reason for me to keep my mileage down to 1200-1400 miles per year any more...if there's so little difference between the price of a 20K mile car and one with 80K. I might as well be the one to enjoy those next 40K-60K miles....not the next owner. It's been almost a decade since I put 5K-10K miles per year on an LS1.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1999-Chevrolet-Camaro-/162162954256?forcerrptr=true&hash=item25c1aa5010%3Ag%3ABzsAAOSwqfNXl23p&item=162162954256&nma=true&si=qAMImNf5JRTwZZKX6KS46NcVOjo%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

98CayenneT/A

I agree, that vert is a absolutely heap of ****, especially with that low of miles. I would say 99% of the members on here have cleaner cars no matter what the milage.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

This car was/is local to me, southeastern Wisconsin I think. It was on Craigslist for a while, it was priced far too high but came down to something much more realistic, and now it apparently sold. I wasn't interested because it was an M6 - too bad because with that March build date it's one of the few LS1 SSs that won't need a roof replacement (few SSs were built prior to 05/98, SS production ramped up very late for the '98 MY, making this early LS1 SS rather unique.)

The ad is an overstatement though - the interior is not flawless. You can clearly see that the steering wheel has been damaged. The entire rim is bent back towards the driver, looks like someone grabbed the top and pulled it towards them really hard while sitting in the driver's seat. The driver's door inner window sweep also has something amiss straight up from the interior door handle. It shouldn't be flattened out like that.

In the ad he mentions: "The car was ordered by original owner without the SS badges on side, just the back." That's not correct, side badge delete was not an option, someone just removed the badges (maybe even the dealer, at the owner's request perhaps?)

As for his claim about the bumper being replaced due to holes having been drilled for a license plate, this was probably due to the grille. There were three push-pin type anchors that connect the stock front plate bracket to the grille. Once installed, there are three permanent holes in the grille. The stock grille is attached to the bumper with clips from the back side, so to properly replace the grille (by attaching a new one with the proper factory clips) you'd have to pull the front bumper cover and swap the grille. What the dealer likely did was just swap the whole front bumper cover from another NBM Camaro on the lot that didn't yet have the plate bracket installed (I've seen local dealers do just this sort of thing in this situation before.)

There are also some modifications he doesn't make mention of (beyond just the shifter **** and air lid) - specifically the 3-point shock tower brace (third point connecting to the cowl....and were holes drilled there? Or perhaps the installer didn't connect that point?) and the aftermarket MAF ends (they are clearly blue in the picture - possibly painted stockers, but just as easily aftermarket pieces.) Regardless, those items are not stock.

It's interesting that the factory tires have survived, but the original wiper blades have not (those are clearly replacements - they didn't even make ones of that style for these cars when they were built.) The owner states that the car "Has never been driven in rain"....so then why would it need new wiper blades? The assembly line wiper blades on my '98 have survived just fine for 18 years of no use and indoor storage. The fact that his have been replaced would suggest that perhaps his car has seen some rain after all.

In the Q&A section at the bottom of the ad, he calls the car a "higher end/strong #2 car that some people might call a #1." With a comprehensive detailing it could be a solid #2 but, based on the above mentioned issues, not to mention what else might be found during an in-person inspection, it's not going to reach #1 status with just a detailing. My '98 has less miles, is much more highly detailed and doesn't have a bent steering wheel or a flattened window sweep, but I still wouldn't imply that calling mine a #2 car is overly conservative or a downgrade from its actual condition (as was implied about this car by its owner.)

A nice car, and I would have seriously considered it had it been an auto, but the owner was a bit unrealistic and uninformed regarding his description. Some people might say I'm nitpicking, and I guess I am, but when people start throwing around terms like "perfection", "flawless", "showroom mint condition", "can't imagine a nicer one on the planet", etc., I think it's warranted to nitpick. Those are some important claims, and they are overstated here for sure.

If your primary (or only) reason for keeping the mileage low has been resale/value retention, then I would agree - just start driving it. In my case, limiting use/mileage has nothing to do with any value concerns, especially since I have the least desirable LS1 vehicle of all - an A4 Z28 - but I was well aware of this at the time of purchase, and it didn't matter since resale was not my concern and this was exactly the car for which I had been looking.

For me, it's really about the time capsule experience and the pleasure I get from visually admiring and occasionally driving or showing what is essentially a near-new 18 year old vehicle that, to this day, remains one of my most favorite vehicles ever. I get almost as much pleasure from looking at it as I do from driving it. It would be impossible for me to constantly maintain its condition and presentation at this level if I were to drive it 5k+ miles per year. Instead, I'd rather just buy another one to replace the driver '02 Z28 that I sold two years ago, but the "right" driver has proved difficult to find so I may just end up going with something completely different to fulfill that purpose.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Did he have any reasonable explanation for his "creative" definition of WS6? I can't understand why someone would rather make up garbage than just say nothing at all. If the car was a Z28, would he have felt compelled to make something up for that too? I'll give him some future material, in case he ends up with one of those to sell in the future: Z= Z-speed rated tires, 2= number of tail pipes, 8= number of cylinders. Now I'll feel bad if I see that in a future Craigslist ad, someone might use this post as a reference saying it's correct!

It's almost like they tried to make that car look neglected.

GimmeLSx

iTrader: (4)

That information, he claims, was relayed to him by a friend and honestly, I believe him, as it is not the first time I have seen that. As per our conversation, he is definitely not an enthusiast, nor did he seem inclined to do much research about the car on his own. To some folks, such things simply do not matter.

NC01TA

This is why I ignore CL. Free ads = everything from nonsense to scams. It isn't worth it to me. Liking low miles cars made me take a peek at the OP's links. I see that some things never change.
Don't worry, the knuckleheads just don't exist with our F-bodies, but w/ Mustangs as well. You think the WS6 explanation is bad, I've had two people tell me my GT/CS (see stripe on car) stands for Carroll Shelby instead of California Special.
Attachment 552666

Firebrian

Some good pick ups by RPMWS6 on that '98 SS. I had to look at those steering wheel photos a couple of times and then go out to my own car to finally "see" the difference. I think I could miss something like that during a buyer's pre-inspection. I just assumed the strut tower brace was solely a bolt on. If welded in place, especially poorly, that would be a significant negative. The console door also looks sprung. Still, it's a decent car certainly up to #2 status and to me a pretty good deal at $11,900. With new tires and some other fixes it will be closer to $13K. I agree that calling it a #1 is a big stretch.

Driving a car 19K miles will reduce a car to #2 status unless you drove those miles in an enclosed box. My 1 owner '99 SS wasn't #1 condition when I bought it from the orig owner almost 5 yrs ago with 12K miles for $11,950...the same price as this '98 SS. I didn't consider the new tires ($550) when I bought my car, nor the $650 needed to replace the AC compressor which was on the way out (known to the owner) and LP/HP lines. Complete fluid exchanges and filters ran me another $300+....an extra $1500 total. A few blemishes on the car means it will at best be a #2. And every year I add a few more, not intentionally, they just happen. If there's a 2nd time to buy a very low mileage garage queen, I will be a lot fussier.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

I agree, I think that '98 SS was a good deal for the auction end price, though it was pretty overpriced in its original Craigslist ad from what I remember. Again, had it been an auto it definitely would have been on my radar due to the build date alone. It's a nice car and certainly has good potential to be a solid #2 with some serious detailing, or just left as-is and used as a regular spring/summer/fall daily driver (that would have been my purpose for it.) The ad was quite an overstatement in terms of condition (both expressed and implied), but I think the buyer did just fine as the deal is plenty fair for what he's apparently getting.

I also agree about #1 vs. #2. Too many people aren't realistic about this, or maybe aren't detailed enough to tell the difference. 19k miles would be a lot of road time for a *true* concourse level show vehicle; it would be all but impossible to keep one blemish-free after all those miles. If there had only been a handful of these cars built, and if nobody had bothered to stash any of them away, then perhaps a car such as this would in fact represent one of the nicest examples of its kind in the world (#1.) But we all know that's not the case, as there are still 3 and 4 digit mileage examples to be found, properly cared for and barely out of the wrapper, which represent the true #1 condition category for these cars. Owning a car like that is more like having a very large, very expensive 1:1 scale diecast model of a car....haha. It's not something you can drive 20k miles and still keep truly factory perfect, even under the best of conditions.