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Can't say that I've seen the same on average; other than the occasional odd-ball sale up or down, they've been pretty steady for the last few years from what I've seen.
There will always be a market for the most desirable trim levels with the most desirable options and lowest miles but, IMO, the mid-mileage examples that are still in use as regular drivers won't likely hold or gain value the same over the foreseeable term as they reach higher mileage. Too many of these were tucked away with ultra low mileage for anything in the upper 5/lower 6-figure mileage range to appeal to most collectors. C5s have continued to get more affordable, and IMO this will put a cap on prices for the mid-grade/driver 4th gens, leaving only the nicest and most sought after examples to grow in value with the collectors (pretty similar to what we've seen with 3rd gens and early 4th gens vs. C4s.)
Regional differences may apply, but I think your purchase price of $10.5k was close to par for a '99 A4 WS6 at that mileage. Here's some data on a recent comparable sale, '98 A4 WS6 with 48k miles:
I remember this member's car being listed for sale for quite some time, it was originally listed for around $10k but in the above link he confirms a sale price of $8000. I think it could have done better in another region perhaps, probably selling for around the initial asking price but not massively more.
I certainly wouldn't count on getting close (meaning, to me, 90% or more) to $10.5k for a car with such specs at ~100k miles. The '98-'00 cars (and especially the '98-'99 cars since Ebony interior wasn't yet an option) just don't bring as much money as an '01+, and the A4 also has less demand/value. An early LS1 F-body would have to be something particularly special to get near or over 5-figures with an auto trans and 100k miles.
Lots of good points here. I'd like to add that in my region (south central Pennsylvania/northern md) the ws6/firehawk cars seem to out pace comparable camaro in asking price. For about the last 4 years ive been doing a Craigslist search daily to see what's out there. The areas I search are all within about a three hour circumference of my house. Within my searches, The early 4th gen cars seem to sit when asking price is >10k. The 01-02 ws6 cars rarely come up for sale at all. If one does, the prices seem to always be >10k and they are snapped up quick. The cheapest ws6 I saw was a white 99. (Didn't know they made white in 99?) It had blown head gaskets, no back seats, was an automatic, 130k. I had a verbal agreement to buy it for 3k, the guy sold it out from under me before I got to it. Never seen any other 98-02 ws6 for less than 6k. Of course I'm only seeing the asking prices.
Darn WPH351, that's a heckuva nice red WS6 for being stored outside. The defects that you mention don't show in those photos. Looks to be a solid 8 on the paint, even if sail panel is worn/blistered a bit. For $7K you get the world's most killer driver. And in your case, at 100K miles, it would still probably be worth $7K - 8 to 10 years from now. Amazing find and deal. One of the best I've seen go through here the past 5 years. The only comparable one was probably the 1999 red Firehawk A4 with 38K miles that the guy got for $9,000. Yours seems a much better deal. Worth $10K-$12K all day long imo...and possibly
Thanks man. The sun earth and moon aligned on this one. Although I'm going to have some major elbow grease ahead, I know it's a car that would be very difficult to equal at $7k .
I tried getting pictures yesterday showing the trouble spots but I had trouble capturing it because of glare. I'm going to get it in the garage and try again.
Just spent about 3 hours washing the car. The entire car was covered in the little black specs that cars get when they haven't been hand washed in a long time. Also, just about every crease had muck in it. Particularly bad was the hatch area, where the spoiler meets the hatch. Just thick black funk in the joints. Also every place glass touches a seal....funk!
I didn't take pictures of the funk except where the hatch meets the cargo area. Here is a pic of that and the other trouble spots. Here is an example of the crevice funk i found everywhere. Sail panel burn. Front of spoilere just below bottom of sail panel. Drivers door spider web. Driver side front bumper spider web.
Those spots are pretty much it. The rest of the paint is going to clean up just fine. There is basically nothing in the way of stone chips anywhere on this car.
The areas I search are all within about a three hour circumference of my house. Within my searches, The early 4th gen cars seem to sit when asking price is >10k. The 01-02 ws6 cars rarely come up for sale at all. If one does, the prices seem to always be >10k and they are snapped up quick.
For the record, I think you got a great deal on yours, all things considered; such low miles, plus being an '02 with an M6. As others have stated, it's the ultimate worry-free fun driver.
We have a pretty busy and broad market here in the Chicago area, so I see various 4th gens pop up for sale pretty frequently. You're definitely right about the higher value for '01+ cars, especially if it's a WS6 with a manual. But when it's an early version, and especially an auto, it never seems to move at anything close to $10k if it's got ~100k miles.
Here's a current example of what the pricing is like for 100k mile auto trans WS6 cars in my area:
This one is not perfect but pretty clean for the mileage, a popular color and even falls in that desirable '01+ category, but the mileage and A4 trans keep it well under $10k. The ad was posted over two weeks ago and just bumped yesterday so it's apparently still available, which is further indication of this car not being grossly under priced at $7500 (if it was a steal it would move very quickly in this busy local market.)
By "30th", I assume this was a Z4C anniversary package car? If so, that factor, plus being an M6, makes that price seem quite realistic to me if the car was really that clean. That is perhaps the most desirable version of any LT1 Z28, even more so than an early pace car. So if prices are high in your area, that sale certainly makes sense. But if it was a simple garden variety (non-Z4C) M6 LT1 Z28 here in the Great Lakes region, you might still be waiting to get that sold for $8k with those miles.
At 100k miles, you typically aren't getting $10k and up for an early WS6 with an auto unless it's something particularly special (such as a highly modified car that was bought by someone looking for that exact sort of setup, or maybe a super rare color that someone just happens to be hunting for at the time, etc.)
I understand that completely, in fact I'm looking for another for this same purpose as well. My '98 is on permanent garage queen duty therefore rarely allowed outside. My '02 used to fill this purpose, but now that it's gone I really miss having a second one that I can actually drive.
We can agree to disagree here. Of course, as stated above, if you're speaking about top tier 3rd gens (most desirable options/trim levels/etc.) with the lowest miles generally available, then C4 prices have little effect since the market for those cars cannot be satisfied by a Corvette. On the other hand, the typical shopper who would buy a higher mileage (but still clean/mid-grade condition) fun driver from that era isn't going to often pay more for an F-body vs. Corvette....and such is consistent with the prices I've seen locally and the sales of which I have knowledge. And I see the same happening with C5 vs. late 4th gen as well.
Not sure how far into the future we're looking here, eventually general inflation may play a role across the board, but I think it's doubtful that stock, 100k mile early LS1 SS/WS6 cars with an auto trans and common colors will be selling for $10-12k (in current dollars) with any regularity in the foreseeable future.
1) Yes, mine was a genuine Z4C. While that fact probably helped me, over the years it never seemed like a Z4C sold for much more than a regular one. In recent times maybe that's changed a little...but over the 15 years I owned it, it never seemed like it helped value substantially. 35ths seemed to carry a premium, but 30ths didn't.
2) With that said, I personally felt like I hit the lottery selling an 84k mile M6 LT1 and buying a 38k mile A4 WS6 LS1 for only $2,500 more! Admittedly, my Z4C was in better shape...it was turnkey, whereas my WS6 needs a few things its slowly getting. Other than the original clutch still being in it, there was nothing for a buyer of mine to complain about.
With that said, I still feel like there's a value difference far bigger than $2,500 between the 2. WS6 package, LS1 and 46k miles less are big advantages, even factoring in the A4 factor.
3) The past 9 months were the only time since 2006 where I owned only 1 F body (I've had as many as 5 at once, all being clean low mileage cars...no rats!). I strongly encourage getting a second and having one to drive and one to use sparingly. I've put 1,000 miles on my WS6 in 3 weeks, and while that use level will be cut in half going forward, if that, its been a blast having one to drive and not feel bad about the odometer!
4) I follow 3rd gen values super closely as traditionally I was a 3rd gen guy more than a 4th gen guy. I'm watching 80-100k 350 IROCs that are clean selling for close to $10k now...which blows my mind. With that said, to me a comparable LS1 will sell for that or better in the coming future because of the vastly superior build quality and the LS engine. I could be wrong, but I don't think I am
2) With that said, I personally felt like I hit the lottery selling an 84k mile M6 LT1 and buying a 38k mile A4 WS6 LS1 for only $2,500 more! Admittedly, my Z4C was in better shape...it was turnkey, whereas my WS6 needs a few things its slowly getting. Other than the original clutch still being in it, there was nothing for a buyer of mine to complain about.
With that said, I still feel like there's a value difference far bigger than $2,500 between the 2. WS6 package, LS1 and 46k miles less are big advantages, even factoring in the A4 factor.
The A4 cars just don't enjoy the same demand or value, the price difference between an A4 and M6 model of otherwise same specs is usually in the lower 4-figure range. Here's another example that's meaningful to this conversation:
This is the most desirable year (2002), a very popular color (black), and the most sought after trans type (M6.) Mileage is a bit higher than yours, but still in that ~40-60k mid-mileage range. A few blemishes, but the sail panel issue is (or will be) a concern for all '99+ cars so that's nothing specific to this one. Some might not like the wheel swap but that can be undone pretty easily. Overall, I think most folks would agree that an '02 M6 WS6 in black with under 60k miles is right near the top of desirability in terms of a driver, yet it's been listed for a month at a price that's only $1500 more than you mentioned paying for your '99 A4 version. I'd say this car has a fair asking price and should sell in the near term, and I'd also call yours a fair deal but not massively under valued at your listed purchase price - at least not in my region. And again, if you check that link I posted above of the 108k mile '01 WS6 A4, you'll see the sort of price that is typical to get such a car sold in the Great Lakes/Midwest once it's in the 6-figure mileage range.
Originally Posted by Jason E
3) The past 9 months were the only time since 2006 where I owned only 1 F body (I've had as many as 5 at once, all being clean low mileage cars...no rats!). I strongly encourage getting a second and having one to drive and one to use sparingly. I've put 1,000 miles on my WS6 in 3 weeks, and while that use level will be cut in half going forward, if that, its been a blast having one to drive and not feel bad about the odometer!
Yep, I agree. I did this for many years as well, I've really missed having a driver. The season is winding down here now, but I hope to have this vacancy filled by sometime next year.
Originally Posted by Jason E
4) I follow 3rd gen values super closely as traditionally I was a 3rd gen guy more than a 4th gen guy. I'm watching 80-100k 350 IROCs that are clean selling for close to $10k now...which blows my mind. With that said, to me a comparable LS1 will sell for that or better in the coming future because of the vastly superior build quality and the LS engine. I could be wrong, but I don't think I am
This just doesn't seem to be the case in my area. I know of two very desirable late 3rd gens (a Trans Am and a Z28, both '91+ and L98 cars) that recently couldn't sell for more than $10.5k even with under 50k miles. A 100k mile IROC, even an L98, wouldn't typically move here for close to $10k unless it was perhaps restored and/or highly modified. But, it's also important to keep in mind that the higher mileage cars here in the Great Lakes usually have some rust issues, so that might be part of our disconnect on price as this isn't such an issue in the FL climate.
A couple questions for you, seeing as how...
1) You've clearly done more 4th gen homework than I have, because admittedly until recently I was going to buy a 3rd gen
2) I appreciate the open, friendly dialog on here far more than the retarded "debates" that seem to be all over any Facebook F body page I belong to...
1) Why is having an 01-02 such a big deal, and therefore a higher price? I get that 2002 is the last year...but is a cam swap for 01s really that big of a deal? To me personally, an LS1 is an LS1...year didn't matter to me. I never thought my 2000 SS was worth demonstrably less than a 2002...maybe I'm wrong?
2) If you see 2 vehicles of comparable condition/options/etc., and one has 20,000 miles less than the other one...what is a guideline for the difference in value? I know it comes down to condition, but lets take that out of the equation. To me, 20,000 miles is a big deal...that's probably 4 years of use for me with the WS6 (or 20 with the SS lol!!!). I agree that the posted 02 is a good deal at $12,500...but to me, why wouldn't mine be worth similar money with 20k miles less? Am I just more mileage sensitive than most in the 4th gen world these days?
You put both cars next to each other for $12,500, and to me its a toss up. I like the 02 and 6 speed factor of the black one, but I much prefer the mileage of mine. I don't think I would've looked at mine, personally, with 57k miles unless it was a lot less...I'm a stickler for mileage, and a deal...
For the record, I think you got a great deal on yours, all things considered; such low miles, plus being an '02 with an M6. As others have stated, it's the ultimate worry-free fun driver.
We have a pretty busy and broad market here in the Chicago area, so I see various 4th gens pop up for sale pretty frequently. You're definitely right about the higher value for '01+ cars, especially if it's a WS6 with a manual. But when it's an early version, and especially an auto, it never seems to move at anything close to $10k if it's got ~100k miles.
Here's a current example of what the pricing is like for 100k mile auto trans WS6 cars in my area:
This one is not perfect but pretty clean for the mileage, a popular color and even falls in that desirable '01+ category, but the mileage and A4 trans keep it well under $10k. The ad was posted over two weeks ago and just bumped yesterday so it's apparently still available, which is further indication of this car not being grossly under priced at $7500 (if it was a steal it would move very quickly in this busy local market.)
I think to a degree, the local market plays a significant role in price range. My area is a blend of rural and urban. There doesnt seem to be a huge supply of available LS powered cars, while the demand is pretty robust as the drag race, cruise, show scene is very active.
The car you posted would have sold quickly in my local area, I believe. I just did a quick search and the closest LS powered car for sale on Craigslist is about 45 minutes away...
Now I don't know how much interest the seller has received, but a sale price of >12500 wouldn't surprise me at all.
We are talking about the higher end pricing for these cars. How about the low end? What's the cheapest running/driving 98-02 LS car you guys have seen?
Back in June I bought a running/driving 2002 z28.
178k. Interior was ebony leather in fair condition. Body looked decent from 15 feet but had a lot of small imperfections. New brakes and tires all the way around. Car ran good. Held 50 psi hot idle. Got it for 1000 bucks! Traveled half way across the state to get it. Sold it a few weeks later for 4200.
The A4 cars just don't enjoy the same demand or value, the price difference between an A4 and M6 model of otherwise same specs is usually in the lower 4-figure range. Here's another example that's meaningful to this conversation:
This is the most desirable year (2002), a very popular color (black), and the most sought after trans type (M6.) Mileage is a bit higher than yours, but still in that ~40-60k mid-mileage range. A few blemishes, but the sail panel issue is (or will be) a concern for all '99+ cars so that's nothing specific to this one. Some might not like the wheel swap but that can be undone pretty easily. Overall, I think most folks would agree that an '02 M6 WS6 in black with under 60k miles is right near the top of desirability in terms of a driver, yet it's been listed for a month at a price that's only $1500 more than you mentioned paying for your '99 A4 version. I'd say this car has a fair asking price and should sell in the near term, and I'd also call yours a fair deal but not massively under valued at your listed purchase price - at least not in my region. And again, if you check that link I posted above of the 108k mile '01 WS6 A4, you'll see the sort of price that is typical to get such a car sold in the Great Lakes/Midwest once it's in the 6-figure mileage range.
Yep, I agree. I did this for many years as well, I've really missed having a driver. The season is winding down here now, but I hope to have this vacancy filled by sometime next year.
This just doesn't seem to be the case in my area. I know of two very desirable late 3rd gens (a Trans Am and a Z28, both '91+ and L98 cars) that recently couldn't sell for more than $10.5k even with under 50k miles. A 100k mile IROC, even an L98, wouldn't typically move here for close to $10k unless it was perhaps restored and/or highly modified. But, it's also important to keep in mind that the higher mileage cars here in the Great Lakes usually have some rust issues, so that might be part of our disconnect on price as this isn't such an issue in the FL climate.
Clean L98 irocs under 100k are sniffing 10k around here. Even clean 305 tpi cars are inching up. I'm only referring to asking prices of cars I've seen on Craigslist.
I think that 2002 black WS6 M6 with 57K miles is a pretty good deal at $12,500. I'm surprised it's not sold....but now late September and buyers are in short supply. By inference, a 17K mile car would bring approx $3K more ($650-$750 for each 10K mile difference....and don't use this thumb rule for cars under 10K miles, and especially under 5K miles). Even with a $1K/10K miles that suggests you can buy a sweet, 17K mile 2002 WS6 M6 for $16,500. I don't think you can unless you get lucky with a clueless owner or dealer.
A couple questions for you, seeing as how...
1) You've clearly done more 4th gen homework than I have, because admittedly until recently I was going to buy a 3rd gen
2) I appreciate the open, friendly dialog on here far more than the retarded "debates" that seem to be all over any Facebook F body page I belong to...
Glad you enjoy the conversation here. I'd like to think that LS1Tech is still the foremost site for LS/late 4th gen enthusiasts to discuss, research and share regarding all topics F-body. On that note, I'm happy to provide some info regarding the below....
Originally Posted by Jason E
1) Why is having an 01-02 such a big deal, and therefore a higher price? I get that 2002 is the last year...but is a cam swap for 01s really that big of a deal? To me personally, an LS1 is an LS1...year didn't matter to me. I never thought my 2000 SS was worth demonstrably less than a 2002...maybe I'm wrong?
There are several factors to this - some real, some over-hyped, and some are downright a matter of popular perception/opinion.
As far as the factual aspects, there are some mechanical advantages to the '01+ years. The LQ4/9 truck cam is part of that, but the cam itself is actually more mild than the earlier LS1 specific cam (for better low end torque in the truck motors.) Here are the cam specs for each, just for your reference:
The LS6 intake and marginally improved cylinder heads (same general casting as the earlier models, but the port finishing process was a bit better on the 241 heads that appeared very late in '00 and are found on all '01+ cars) add to the slightly better performance of the later engines. The exhaust manifold update in 2000 also adds to this. Basically, the '01+ cars are just a bit faster stock for stock, all else being equal, but internet lore has caused much hype regarding these later model year examples and the concept that they are somehow "so much better."
Truthfully, I actually prefer a '98 over all other models years largely because of the roof issue that plagues all '99+ cars, but there other reasons as well (will come back to this later.) I'm always quick to tell folks that their money is better spent on getting the nicest example possible rather than just the newest model year but, again, internet lore seems to foster significantly more desirability for the '01+ cars (some of this is cosmetic as well, as the "ebony" interior color wasn't available until 2000 and this is another factor that some folks quote as a reason for preferring the later model years.) And some prefer a 2002 just to say that they have the latest 4th gen possible.
Here are some links to threads which detail the model year differences extensively. Additionally in those links, I've outlined the various reasons why I personally prefer the earliest model year - though, again, much of this is subjective. I've linked them directly to the portion which begins to cover model year differences, but there is a ton of other late 4th gen info in these threads that you might find interesting if you have the time to read it all:
2) If you see 2 vehicles of comparable condition/options/etc., and one has 20,000 miles less than the other one...what is a guideline for the difference in value? I know it comes down to condition, but lets take that out of the equation. To me, 20,000 miles is a big deal...that's probably 4 years of use for me with the WS6 (or 20 with the SS lol!!!). I agree that the posted 02 is a good deal at $12,500...but to me, why wouldn't mine be worth similar money with 20k miles less? Am I just more mileage sensitive than most in the 4th gen world these days?
You put both cars next to each other for $12,500, and to me its a toss up. I like the 02 and 6 speed factor of the black one, but I much prefer the mileage of mine. I don't think I would've looked at mine, personally, with 57k miles unless it was a lot less...I'm a stickler for mileage, and a deal...
Firebrian posted some good thoughts above on price difference for the mileage, and the difference seems to be less pronounced within certain ranges. Obviously, the difference between a 5000 mile and a 25000 mile car is huge, but in those mid-mileage ranges (such as 40k to 60k), it's a less dramatic value difference. As you reach 100K and beyond, a ~20k difference might be marginal at best.
Starting somewhere around the 30k mile mark, cars of this current age (~15-20 years old) seem to begin the transition away from potential "collector" grade for a lot of folks with whom I've discussed this topic (unless perhaps the car is something particularly special in terms of important options with high demand/low supply.) Obviously this is also condition dependent, but as a matter of perception that shift seems to fully take place by about ~40k miles at present (and I think this also relates to the fact that a lot of these LS1 cars were tucked away with very low miles; in many large market areas you can find several LS1 F-bodies with under 30k miles for sale at any given time.)
Having said that, even though yours should bring more money for the ~20k less miles if all else were equal, such is offset by the '01+ & M6 factor in this case. It's not uncommon to see a $1500-2000 premium for the M6 alone, sometimes more, plus higher value (due to higher demand) for the '01+ examples. Of course, the "right buyer, right time" factor can always be a wild card, but on the general market you can expect to get more money on average for an '02 M6 WS6 than a '99 A4 WS6, condition/color being comparable, when both are in that general ~40-60k mid-mileage range (even if they are at opposite ends of that range.) This is due almost entirely to demand and perception rather than any significant and actual overall material benefit to the later M6 variant.
wph351 also makes a great point about variances in local market conditions. While some folks are willing to travel a great distance for vehicle purchases, most will end up buying cars that are within about ~100 miles of their location on average. And local climate also plays a role in how nice a higher mileage driver (i.e. the various ~100k mile cars that have been brought up above) will typically be, therefore how much it might be worth. Most 100k mile cars in my region (even going back to cars as old as 3rd gens) have seen some winter exposure at some point, so rust issues (if unrestored) will really have an impact on value.
Originally Posted by wph351
Clean L98 irocs under 100k are sniffing 10k around here. Even clean 305 tpi cars are inching up. I'm only referring to asking prices of cars I've seen on Craigslist.
I think 3rd gens in general just don't carry as much value in my region. Here is a really nice one I've been watching for a while, it's not a TPI car and not a GTA or IROC, but still a super clean Trans Am with very low mileage (37k) for a 30 year old car. This is the second ad that's been run, the last one had been renewed for about a month before a new one was posted - so the car has been for sale for a couple months at least and just bumped again yesterday, seems to be no takers at $8k:
Listing prices like these are not uncommon in this region; neither of these cars is a shocking deal in my local market.
Lastly, I just wanted to touch on this with a personal connection:
Originally Posted by Jason E
To me, 20,000 miles is a big deal...that's probably 4 years of use for me with the WS6 (or 20 with the SS lol!!!).
I see that your SS is at the 17k mile mark per your signature. This is meaningful to me because, just tonight, my '98 rolled over 18,000 on the way home from a car show. Looks like we are on a similar program, except that I've only been putting about 300-400 miles annually on mine in recent years.
On an interesting side note, you, Firebrian, wph351, and myself all have LS1 F-bodies with under 20k miles. Just another example of how many are still out there with very low mileage.
On an interesting side note, you, Firebrian, wph351, and myself all have LS1 F-bodies with under 20k miles. Just another example of how many are still out there with very low mileage.
Sadly, I'll be leaving this club in summer/fall 2018 as I say good bye to 19,999.
It will have been a fun 6-1/2 yrs. Then I get to make the transition more to a driver status. Not like there's a ton of downside with a 21K vs. 29K mile car. It will take me 6-8 years to get through the 20's....assuming physical ailments don't catch up to me requiring a shift to automatic transmission cars only.
Thanks for your thoughts and detail in your post. Much appreciated. I just learned of the roof/targa band issue on 99+. Mine feels smooth but does exhibit bubbling when you look at it from an angle...its not bad at this point. I'm getting a California Pop Top for when its parked outside at work, as a co-worker has one for his 05 Vette vert (if you've never heard of one, check out capoptop.com...well worth it IMO!). That should at least help it from getting too much worse. I wondered why my 97 never showed any bubbling over the years...now I understand its a 99+ issue. I have another co worker with a 98 WS6, however, and his targa band is bubbling a little bit...?
I bought my SS from my dad 5 years ago with 10 on it. I had chased the car since 2003...bought it for my Pontiac dealer's inventory in 2003 with 6k on it, got bought by one of our techs at that point before I could snag it, sold to my dad with 7k on it in 2009 when I couldn't afford it but my dad could (he also has a 12k mile SOM 02 Formula M6), then my dad put 3k on it in 3 years until I bought it in '12 finally. Bottom line is, it ain't going anywhere and will continue to live a pampered life. I limit myself to 1k a year, so 20k will be looming faster for me than you lol.
The hard one to keep miles off for me is my CTS-V. The stupid thing is so much fun, I just wanna drive it lol! Trying to limit myself to around 2k a year going forward...so getting the WS6 as a distraction is critical to that goal!!!
On a side note....I'm a nearly 20 year member of thirdgen.org, and asked on here years ago why we don't have a "History/Restoration" sub-forum. That forum is a huge resource over on TGO. I was nearly laughed off the LT1 board here for suggesting that, with everyone saying that was stupid, no one restores 4th gens blah blah. Are we ever going to get a sub-forum like that for people that value 4th gen history/specs/etc?
....I wondered why my 97 never showed any bubbling over the years...now I understand its a 99+ issue. I have another co worker with a 98 WS6, however, and his targa band is bubbling a little bit...?
The break point on this isn't quite as simple as '99+ only, although the GM TSB (#03-08-98-001A, dated 4/2/03) for this only lists '99-'02 cars as being subject to the condition. Through many years of research and looking at many cars/talking to many owners, we've discovered that the break point seems to be May of 1998 production. Some 05/98 cars are OK, but many have the problem, and basically all June and July cars have the issue as well. April seems to have been a low production month as I haven't found many test subjects from this month (but those which I have encountered have been OK.) March and earlier are in the clear as none have ever been reported or found to have the condition after all these years (my own '98 was built on 3/23/98 and it's perfectly fine, even after two decades of midday sun exposure at car shows and the like.) So, I'd have to assume that your coworker's '98 WS6 was likely built in 05/98 or later if it exhibits the waves/bubbles.
This issue is a matter of the epoxy primer being omitted from the underside of the panel on the assembly line, allowing the adhesive to weep through the panel over time (and with sun/heat exposure being the main catalyst.) Here's a sticky that I updated years ago with a comprehensive summary of the issue and repair options:
I bought my SS from my dad 5 years ago with 10 on it. I had chased the car since 2003...bought it for my Pontiac dealer's inventory in 2003 with 6k on it, got bought by one of our techs at that point before I could snag it, sold to my dad with 7k on it in 2009 when I couldn't afford it but my dad could (he also has a 12k mile SOM 02 Formula M6), then my dad put 3k on it in 3 years until I bought it in '12 finally. Bottom line is, it ain't going anywhere and will continue to live a pampered life. I limit myself to 1k a year, so 20k will be looming faster for me than you lol.
It's always great to get the story behind these nice, low mile cars. I bought mine in 2004 directly from the original owner - a local guy who used the car the same way as I do now. It had 11k on it back then, so I've only done 7k miles in 13+ years, or 500/year on average. It was easy to resist driving it during all the years that I had a second one as a driver, but that ended in 2014 and I'm really getting the itch to buy another driver - hope to have that done in the next ~12 months.
Originally Posted by Jason E
On a side note....I'm a nearly 20 year member of thirdgen.org, and asked on here years ago why we don't have a "History/Restoration" sub-forum. That forum is a huge resource over on TGO. I was nearly laughed off the LT1 board here for suggesting that, with everyone saying that was stupid, no one restores 4th gens blah blah. Are we ever going to get a sub-forum like that for people that value 4th gen history/specs/etc?
There doesn't seem to be a big restoration market for these cars yet, perhaps because they don't contain a lot of metal body panels so rust issues aren't as prevalent as with 3rd gens, and the factory BC/CC finish is of better quality than the earlier cars so it can often be brought back without a complete strip and repaint. Additionally, most folks looking for a really nice 4th gen just end up buying a low mile one since they are relatively plentiful and that option is much cheaper than a proper restoration on a "used up" example.
Having said that, I've seen some nice threads on restoration work in both our Paint & Body Work section, as well as the Appearance & Detailing section. For more historical discussion, or more comprehensive "build threads"/project cars, you can usually find such in the vehicle specific sub-forums (such as 1967-2002 Firebird & 1967-2002 Camaro.)
I wouldn't be opposed to adding a restoration section in the future if demand is there, but at this point I think it would mostly get overlooked in favor of those other sections mentioned above (especially since the demand/interest is currently not very strong.)
09-22-2017, 06:36 AM
