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Value of 239,000 mile 02 Z28 aka How bad did I get burned?
Let her rip, I bought a 240k mile Z28 for $4500
Several weeks ago kicking fenders with Carguru's, I stumbled across an 02 Z28 while out of town. Bored one Saturday, I checked the Z28 out and eventually ended up buying the car. The Z28 was stock down to the factory air silencer. Drove quiet and rattle free. I was surprised the car checked out.
.
$4,500 later I drove the car home on a 600 mile road trip with no issues. Got 27.5 mpg.
How bad did I get burned?
Carfax/Autocheck showed: 3 prior owner's and two fender benders.
Car has 13 years of dealer maintenance records. I spent two hours reading them before buying the car. Mechanically the car is in excellent condition. I have copies of the records. Everything worked as it should. New tires. Good AC. No leaks of any kind.
Interior is almost new condition. One small crack in the dash. Driver seat like new
Exterior is very good. No curb rash on rims. Prior owner often washed the car in the rain sort of deal. Paint has a few flaws as does the body.
The head lights are on my list of things to replace
In two months or so only one person expressed interest in the Z28
The add should have shown the seat
Driver seat is like new
On the road the Z28 got a lot of attention at gas stops.
This was a pity buy I felt sorry for the old high mile Z28 that someone had carefully maintained and cleaned for 13+ years. The 02 Z28 has assumed the daily driver role until winter comes
Last year I bought a 2002 Z28 with 38k miles on it and that one honestly looks like its in better shape. I overpaid on mine by a bit but i think you did just fine. Enjoy!!
Looks like a 75K-125K mile car that was well taken care of. Tires fresh. Front seat probably recovered. Maybe the car is even repainted. Very clean for miles that high. That only thing that sticks out as "high mileage" are the fogged out head lights. Nice car. Probably mostly highway miles.
$4500 for a car with 240k on the clock and 2 accidents on the title history means you paid at the very top of the market value. If anything major goes wrong, a real possibility for any vehicle with that many miles, you will be upside down in it real quick. And while it certainly looks clean, I do not believe for a second that that is the original driver's seat; it looks as if it has no wear at all. I would not have paid that much but what matters is that you are happy with the purchase. Good luck with it.
@Firebrian and @GimmeLSx are correct about the driver's seat - that's not the original cover. The texture is not correct/original on the side bolsters as seen in that close-up shot. But it's interesting that someone took the time and spent the money to recover a seat on an otherwise stock car such as this with so many miles. It does seem to have been very well cared for. The front end would look exponentially better with a headlight restoration though, and based on the rest of its condition I'd say the car deserves this.
Ultimately, I wouldn't consider paying more than about $3-3.5k for something like this with so many miles, totally stock/original drivetrain and some accident history. BUT, rust is a major issue in my region, and with 240k miles at just 16 years old it would have certainly been driven many times in the winter if it were a Chicago car. So, for that reason alone I probably wouldn't buy the car at any price - but in your case, this is obviously not a rusty Chicago car so it's a different story. (Side note: you should have seen the undercarriage on my 110k mile '02 Z28 when it was just 12 years old - after many Chicago winters, it looked disgusting compared to the pictures of your undercarriage above.)
Even still, I would expect things like the auto trans to need a rebuild in the near future (if not already done), items like the fuel pump to be at or near the end of it's lifespan (if not already done), cooling system to be questionable (cracks in the radiator tanks would be expected/common at this mileage, unless already replaced; also, 2002 had the PS cooler standard in all V8 models - is this one leaking yet? Or maybe it's already been replaced/deleted?), A/C system could likely have issues in the near term, plus the typical brakes/steering/suspension and everything else. You mentioned a lot of dealer service records, so perhaps many of these items have already been recently replaced with documented GM parts, in which case the gamble isn't quite as big.
It seems like a nice car that presents much better than expected for the mileage. I can see why you got attached to it.
That's good to know about the replacement seat cover and the 02 Z28 having the PS cooler. I'm not up 4th Gen Z28's and didn't realize that.
The there are several important items that have been replaced within the last 2-3 years per dealer service records.
Radiator, hoses & water pump
Alternator
PS pump, thermostat & hoses
Timing chain, front & rear cover seals
AC compressor, condenser, evaporator etc
Fuel pump, sending unit & filter
Rear pinion seal, carrier bearings & pinion bearings
Front LCA lower control arm ball joints
Tie-rods
My girlfriend said the heads lights should have been the first item of business
So far I've had the oil , filter, transmission fluid & filter & rear diff oil changed. Rear shocks were bad, replaced those. I didn't like the alignment so I had the tires rebalanced, rotated and realignment. Also had the cooling system flushed as it was almost due per records and brake fluid changed as that had never been done.
Power steering fluid change and new headlights will be next items.
Speaking of the transmission, it "seems good. I had a 700R4 go 389,500 miles and it was still good but it was still smoother than this 4L60e. Got quote from RPM Transmission for a Level 4 just in case.
The Z28 burns 1qt of oil per 1,000 miles which is high. Might have to do valve seals later after the headlights. Oil pressure is solid at 45-50.
That's a nice list of new parts, especially if it's all OEM/top shelf items. Some of that is expensive work so, if done recently, there's certainly some value in that with proper documentation.
If the radiator, hoses, t-stat, PS & water pumps have already been replaced, perhaps the PS cooler was already deleted? It may have been the reason for the pump failure, and/or found to be leaking when the other work was done. The cooler was standard for all V8 models in 2002 (RPO "V12" on your SPID), but yours might already be gone.
Regarding the headlights, just some general information: The aftermarket reproductions that are available don't usually fit perfectly. Several different styles are on the market, including OE "look" replacements, but all of them usually have fitment issues for most folks (large/inconstant gaps between the module and the bumper cover, hood and/or fender). You can improve the situation some by swapping the stock bracket over to the new headlight module, but that only helps a little. Some folks have had luck with shimming the mounting points for better fitment, but there's only so much you can do in this regard without having to modify the frame in which the mounting tabs lock. A few people have reported good fitment from the aftermarket pieces right out of the box, but they are in the minority.
Here's a thread that shows some pictures of the typical fitment issues:
True original factory/OEM headlights no longer exist through the dealer. GM stopped issuing the "assembly line original" pieces sometime around ~ 2008-'10; what you get now from GM is the same aftermarket module that you'd get from anywhere else (made by a company called "Depo"), except with a "GM" logo on the lens and a huge mark-up in price. Unlike the assembly line originals, these new modules are not made in USA and are stamped as "Depo" on the back (with a GM logo only on the lens itself). I can say from personal experience that these new GM/Depo units don't fit any better than the various other versions sold in the aftermarket. The only way to get true original pieces at this point is used/NOS. The other option is restoration of the originals, which includes wet sanding and then either a series of polishes and sealant for clarity and protection, or applying a clear coat (two-part being much more durable in this regard) for longer term protection.
Transmission longevity can really vary in these applications, with simple highway cruising obviously being very easy miles. Since the car has had a few owners though, it might have seen some very different types of driving at various points in its life. How did the fluid look and smell when you changed it? And did those records indicate any previous fluid maintenance? It might still be fine for a while if all the owners were relatively easy on it and maintained it well, but it's good that you've got some replacement options and quotes already in mind just in case.
Some LS1s see pretty high oil usage even with low mileage. Some of this has to do with the PCV system, but often this will happen with changes in cylinder pressure after a cam swap (my '00 car used a similar amount of oil as yours after swapping the cam), but yours is obviously stock. It wouldn't hurt to do a leakdown (or at least compression) test prior to replacing valve seals, just to get a better idea of where the oil (and possibly some compression) might be escaping - especially considering the mileage.
That's excellent info on the PS cooler and code V12. I'm going to check and cooler will have to go or be bypassed.
The work way done at the former GM dealership that sold the prior owner the car. When GM downsized the number of smaller family owned dealerships this GMC / PONTIAC / Cadillac / Subaru dealer took the buyout and became a Subaru dealer. Met the owner and we had a long talk about muscle cars, mid 60's and 70's Corvettes. Likewise talked with the service manager and several mechanics. Came away feeling like this had been a very good GM dealership.
I checked the transmission fluid and it wasn't the color fresh cherry pink of new fluid. It was still pink and smelled OK but not fresh just changed. Looked and smelled like 50,000 + fluid to me. The fluid had been changed previously basically at 45,000 - 50,000 mile intervals. When I changed it we dropped the pan so only about half was changed. Used Mobile 1 ATF & Red Lube Guard & new filter of course. It look pretty good just a little fuzz on the magnetic plug. In a few thousand miles it will get another change with Mobile 1 ATF & Red Lube Guard + new filter. My 91 RS ran the M1 ATF w/Red Lube Guard and after 389,500 miles still drove very well. That one was probably capable of going 500,000 miles with proper care. However this 4L60e isn't in as as good of condition at 240,000 miles. Of course the 4L60e has to handle far more torque and hp with the LS1 than that 700R4 ever did with a 170hp 250 tq 305 TBI.
That's unfortunate the aftermarket headlights fit so poorly. My first restoration attempt with the stock headlights failed. I used the RainX kit. Used up the sanding discs and they fell apart on just one headlight. Almost no noticeable improvement. Have the 3M kit now for one more try before going to the aftermarket.
I've noticed either a bad case of piston slap on start up or something more sinister like a lifter or rocker noise. I can't tell. Most of the piston slap I've heard in the past went away quicker. The noise goes away when the car warms up. In a few weeks I plan to take the Z28 to Norris Motorsports. I will ask Mike about doing a leak down etc to help determine the engines actual condition. New valve seals, locks retainers, springs, push rod check, & a bushing kit for the rockers or new rockers maybe in the cards as maintenance items.
You paid $4500 for the car; does that include tax, title, and plate? Then you have had the fluids changed, new shocks, front end alignment, and a few more maintenance items planned. How much are you into it in total so far? And now I see you have some internal engine issue, possibly piston slap, possibly something worse; I'm not trying rain on your parade, but it looks to me like you are going to have way more into that car than you will ever get out, especially when you are closing in on 300k miles.
You paid $4500 for the car; does that include tax, title, and plate? Then you have had the fluids changed, new shocks, front end alignment, and a few more maintenance items planned. How much are you into it in total so far? And now I see you have some internal engine issue, possibly piston slap, possibly something worse; I'm not trying rain on your parade, but it looks to me like you are going to have way more into that car than you will ever get out, especially when you are closing in on 300k miles.
Yes, your insightful I wanted feedback on the purchase and that would include the opportunity costs that owning the Z28 incurs.
I like the Z28 a little too much so the Z28's role shifting from a daily beater/driver to a nice Z28 that I want to keep nice. Also I expected my fiancee to dislike the car. Instead she has really taken to the Z28 any it's become her defacto 1st hot rod / muscle car.
I'm in for around $5,800 at this point.
Z28 $4500
Tax, tag title was $180
The oil, transmission, red end fluids & filters $200
Rear shocks $100, install $54
Alignment, balance rotate $69
Coolant & brake fluid flush replacement $175
Window tint with lifetime warranty $300
New headlights, new billet grill & Z28 emblem for grill -$400
Me being OCD about car stuff - priceless
I have a spare LS1, the 99 TA's old heads and cam engine...honestly if the02 Z28's motor has much of an issue it will get swapped out.
FWIW - I gambled once before on a high mile car and was very happy with the results.
My 91 RS which had been built proof and Super reliable since new was totaled with 229,000 miles on the clock back in 2001. Spent $500 on parts and $4500 on body shop getting the old RS fixed with a new front clip & paint etc. Everyone , family , friends and other car nuts told me I was insane. Other than normal maintenance the RS was trouble free and my daily driver until June 2015. The RS had 389,500 miles on the odometer. I drove the RS to the shop that did the restoration and LS swap in June 2015.
I'm not sure if the Z28 is as good a car as that 91 RS has proved but decided to take the chance.
That's unfortunate the aftermarket headlights fit so poorly. My first restoration attempt with the stock headlights failed. I used the RainX kit. Used up the sanding discs and they fell apart on just one headlight. Almost no noticeable improvement. Have the 3M kit now for one more try before going to the aftermarket.
I had to get pretty aggressive with the wet sanding on my '02 car to get rid of the yellowing and hazing. It's been quite a few years since I did this, so I don't remember exactly what grade of sand paper I had to start with - it may have been as coarse as 320 (come to think of it, I may have gone to 180 on one of them which was really bad). Then I used every grade all the way up to 2500 or maybe even 3000. I then opted for a compound/polish/sealant finish for final clarity and protection rather than doing a clear coat after the last step of wet sanding. It might have been better to use a clear coat (two-part for much better longevity) as I ended up having to touch up the polishing job a couple times per year, even using a good sealant. I also tried to park the car in such a way as to keep the headlights out of the sun. Since then, I've read about a couple of coating products that are supposed to be as good or better than two-part automotive clear coat as a replacement for the factory coating that's been sanded away. I never tried these, and I don't remember the name or cost of the products off hand.
I wish I had bought more factory headlights when GM was still selling the original assembly line pieces. I did buy one set to have as a spare but, due to cost, I just couldn't justify piling up a ton of them. Wish I had though, as this and the bubbling sail panels are the most noticeable flaws that these cars develop if exposed to the elements as they age.
Look, you already own it. Who cares what people think, you like it, then thats what matters, whats done is done... Now get to work and start building it, time for a 383, converter, and all the bolt ons......... Get to work
RPM, 180 is some serious cut, I will keep that In mind the aftermarket ones don't work out. I found a couple of real GM headlight assembly but they were over $300 each.
SRT8, it interesting to hear other folks opinions on the car. Eventually a new engine new engine would be nice. With all the LS parts that accumulated over the last 15 years, it might happen
For the first time ever, I'm doing an appearance mod's ( headlights & grill) before performance mod's on a car.
Although I wouldn't have paid as much as you did, its all about whatever you think its worth. With that being said CONGRATS on the purchase and I hope she serves you well! Good looking car !
Attention Moderator could this thread be moved to one of the general auto forums? It would be a nice place to document the tweaks, mods and so on.
Due to the title and initial posts, moving this thread as-is would likely result in a lot of folks replying with comments and side discussions about value and such. We could change the title, but not all the early discussion focused on value.
It would really be better to start a separate "build" thread in the Camaro section, and you could also include a link to this thread within if you wanted to provide some history.
06-20-2018, 03:45 PM
Value of 239,000 mile 02 Z28 aka How bad did I get burned? 
