PopaPork

iTrader: (4)

People are still not 100% convinced American cars are up to par with imports. Plain and simple. Kill the UAW let the 3 convince people that their cars up to snuff and people will come. Strong holding the other guy won't help. Just think, if GM could stop paying the high salaries, and perks those asses get, they could still sell the same amount of cars, do the same out of R&D, the same if not more of everything and make a profit.

It's their out flow of cash that is really killing them. They need to get rid of the UAW.

25psi

kain01

This is the statement that a lot of people feel for GM. But just think, if they file bankruptcy right now without a reorg, it'll cost us a lot more than they are asking for in unemployment. The best thing we can do is give the big 3 their money, but stipulate that certain things need to happen. The UAW being abolished or coming under government control would be high on that list, but regardless after they reorganize if they want to file bankruptcy so be it. I don't think people realize the domino effect that will take place if they file chapter 11. It has been mentioned on fox and cnn that chapter 11 bankruptcy isn't even an option that if they file it could be straight to the auction block with them.

TT632

iTrader: (3)

Put some thought into what you are saying. This is the biggest problem I hear from Foreign car supporters. Making the "All Import statement vs. all American". On par with which imports? a Kia Sophia, an out of warantee Mitsubishi or Audi, or maybe a Camry or what American vehicle? Ford Mustang, Chevy truck or maybe a Stratus?
How about a qualification on that statement.

Realistically, I can say there are only a handful of Foreign vehicles that can fit the category as being truly trouble free. And there are plenty of American vehicles that are superior to most "Imports". I buy many vehicles every year, mostly domestics, and a few imports even. There is only one that has performed flawlesly from day one with nothing having been replaced since I bought it new in 2002. Of course its a GMC truck! Now I'm looking over the reciepts for a 80k mile Camry that I picked up for a friend since this is his preferred vehicle. 1 Radiator replaced, 1 A/C compressor replaced, Steering rack replaced, Cat replaced. And this is from a vehicle I would recomend due to a typically strong repair history, just not this one. For reqular cars I consider the Camry, Accord, Civic and Corolla to be on my safe to recomend list if you have to buy on import. Almost any of the other sub-tier Japanese and Korean vehicles don't make the list.

LS1LT1

iTrader: (16)

PopaPork

iTrader: (4)

Hey I'm just saying it's pretty obvious that the American car buyer doesn't trust the big 3 fully, If they did everyone would be driving a big three car. I don't care which cars rank to what cars, that wasn't the point of the post. It just not all people trust them, or trust them yet.

And Kain- Fine let them reorg I think they need a HUGE reorg, but don't let them go down the same path and pump more money in to them, with the idea. "If we (the gov) keep their heads above water long enough, peole will come back and buy from them and all will be good in Oz again" Make them do A B and C and maybe even DEFGHIKLMNO before they get anymore money. It blows my mind that we will pump this money in to fix the problem, It's putting a band aid on a gun shot wound.

kain01

I hope I'm wrong, but I don't see how the big three going down won't affect our sales of plastic, metal, and dealerships. Do you?

TT632

iTrader: (3)

My point being, I think you are above making general statements that all American cars are lacking in quality and all Imports are high quality vehicles. It only perpetuates the lack of trust you refer to above.

Example: When I was conducting competitor testing for a Japanese OEM, we would disseminate which vehicles were to be tested and disassembled with a subjective ride and drive before acquiring data and tearing the vehicles down. The goal was to reduce the # of vehicles tested and disassembled to minimize cost and test time. The management would view this as an initial scrub; I viewed it as a quality check on competitor vehicles. Typically, none of the sub-tier Japanese vehicles, and none of the Korean vehicles made the cut. Consistently at the top of almost all tests were Toyota, GM brands and Honda vehicles, and VW specifically for compacts. Ford and Chrysler vehicles typically were at the bottom, but still made the cut. Test were for Ride/Handling in addition to Noise, Vibration and Harshness; All good tests for vehicle quality.

This is what I am getting at; There is not an overall Import vs. domestic quality gap. There may be a quality gap between the best Import vehicles and a GM vehicle, which is debatable if you look at the new Malibu or GM's truck line. Even domestically, I would say that overall, GM vehicles are of higher quality than their Ford and Chrysler counterparts. This may be changing with the latest Fords, but I can't speak from personal experience.

TriShield

They are down, it's already happened. They are simply wasting everyone's money to make it look otherwise. The companies are already lost.

kain01

No trust me you'll know when it happens. Our current unemployment rates are measly compared to what they will be. Oh and GM just told the Government to keep the 2B they were supposed to get for March.

7998

iTrader: (1)

So really Trishield, are you saying they should just cease to exist? I understand that may be what you want. But I'm really asking you to answer that question.

Since you state they are lost,
Should they just file chapter 7?

TT632

iTrader: (3)

TriShield has always been doom and gloom with respect to the downfall of the big 3. He is right to a certain extent with regards to management and legacy cost issues.
But trust me, not all Foreign automakers have their act together either, and many have survived just fine. Fiat, Nissan Hyundai. and the French automakers come to mind as an example of automotive OEMs that have pulled though difficult times. Some with the support of their governments.

Irunelevens

Yeah, but Nissan pulled through their hard times in the 90s by a serious change in management (Renault). And a huge part of that change was the switch from timing belts to chains. So they recognized a problem... and changed it. The Big 3 need to change a lot of things before they can hope to be viable in the long run.

PopaPork

iTrader: (4)

Tri is right to a point. IF we let the big three keep running things the same old way, we will see this same thing in a couple of years. So yeah current business model, they are lost. File and be done with it it. IF they change everything from the factory floor up to the head office, and I mean really change it, change how they pay people, change their offering, change how they do busines and WHO does busness then give them the money they need to help them through this.

I think most people are OK with helping them out, but not ok with just throwing them a check and not having anything change. Their way of doing things obviously doesn't work, so why keep letting them do it? Just because they are Americas Big 3?

ss1129

iTrader: (16)

Didnt our government force the UAW on our automakers?

Abolish them ***** and car prices will go down...autosales will go up.....factories will come back home and jobs will go up....ect...ect.

PopaPork

iTrader: (4)

I'm sure they did when workers were getting **** left and right. The problem is they're not anymore they are ****** everyone else.

kain01

That's basically what I am saying. Nothing should be allowed to stay the same and they have made a lot of good changes already especially with the UAW on the last contract renewal (ie UAW now supplies a 401k like the rest of the world, no more pensions, so as there retirees die off, so do the last pensions in the world), but these things will take time. It's unfortunate that it may be too little too late, as GM at least, has imho surpassed the quality of at least my mother-in-laws 08 Camry with their new Malibu. And the cars they are getting ready to release (Cruze, Orlando, Camaro, LaCrosse, Volt, etc.) should be winning challenges in a lot of magazines, at worst pulling second place. The cars are great (check any JD Power long term dependability test results and you will find Buick and Cadillac in the top 10 for the last 8 years, with Chevy usually within range of Toyota) , it's the perception they have to work on.

LS1LT1

iTrader: (16)

No, I don't. It very likely would affect all of that, and more.

TT632

iTrader: (3)

TriShield, I'm really not trying to bust your ***** but do some investigating before you write.

Last month in Consumer Reports for the Avalanche?

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/c...p-picks-ov.htm

Last year and their sticking to it. see Autoblog?
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/05/19/g...f-fleet-sales/

I would dig up JD Powers scores for specific GM models that have done well over the last 10 years, but you see where this is going!

If I make a statement here or anywhere for that matter I am either speaking from personal experience in the industry or I have done my research. If I do make a mistake, I admit it and move forward.