voodoochikin04

iTrader: (3)

Yea short of having data to verify it... Both our of headers cars ran fine on the stock tune, nothing felt out of place, wasn't running hotter which I would kind of expect to see slight temp increase if it was leaning out when hot rodding the **** out of it for hours?? Maybe not. Wasn't running TOO rich either. We both used the wait for me performance mail order pcm... $136 I recall... I can't say of there was any noticeable difference or if it was in my head.. Also the obx units had extended bungs for the rear 02 sensors which even on stock pcm no CEL came on.. Ever. I believe they keep the O2 sensors out of direct exhaust stream?

wes8398

iTrader: (2)

I figured as much. Seems like those mail order tunes get a shitty rap around the forums, but if you're just trying to get the best bang for your buck out of a set of headers, I can't justify paying for dyno time (probably more than $500 in my area) as well as the cost of a handheld/computer ($400+ from what I've seen) to do the tuning with. This just makes the headers out of reach, cost wise. If a mail order tune can be done for $200 or so, that's a lot more reasonable.

Funny how different the anecdotes that you can find are from one another. One person says "naw, it's fine", and another person will say "man, that almost blew up my car"

ls1247

iTrader: (2)

I think it varies from location to location and car to car really. Be prepared to go mail order if you need too, if your car happens to run fine, leave it alone.

Most of what I've read is that without a tune, the headers didn't accomplish much and the CEL came on. Some people have had better experiences than this, some worse but in general, that's about what I'd expect if I did headers and no tune.

phalanx_vette

I had a CEL because I got the high flow cats with the headers.
There's a guy local to me that will do a basic setup with HP tuners for about $150.
He deleted the rear O2s, skip shift, and made a few simple changes in the system.
He does dyno tunes also, but I felt that was unessecary for CAI and exhaust.
My V is a daily so I couldn't wait for a mail order tune.

NIKDSC5

iTrader: (10)

No it was on, but I paid 40$ to a tuner to shut off the rear o2's and shut off the CEL. Easy, and took 10 minutes.

I think with this particular topic you will find most will be the "naw it's fine" type. I have yet to see someone say that a CAI and headers (w/full exhaust) credit the boom to their mods.

LSX Power Tuning

iTrader: (4)

OBX seem to be hit or miss on quality. All those I have bought personally were all really good and fit fine. I have never seen ones like posted on here in person.

It always best to get a street or dyno tune with headers, or atleast a mail order to delete the proper codes. I have yet to see a single vehicle I have tuned make more with headers and stock tune vs tuned. Your fuel trims can compensate your part throttle fueling for them to a point but it they wont correct your WOT fueling and its not good to have huge fuel trims. Without cats (most after market high flow cats are dummy cats) the pcm can go into cat protection mode and it will command a very rich AFR at WOT. When this happens all the power you just gained from your headers is lost with the super rich AFR you now have.

ls1247

iTrader: (2)

I don't think there's any denying that a dyno tune for a header install will give you increased power levels over a stock tune but if your headers/exhaust/cai are your first steps on the way to cam and heads, do you really need to spend those tuning dollars or will the car survive without it...

I think we can all agree that the car will survive without it but it'll run better with it.

wes8398

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for all the opinions on the tuning... didn't mean to hijack the thread, but I guess I kind of did. Might as well keep it up now...

VooDoo - Thanks for the info.

LSXPower - Was that a type-o, or did you mean to say that you've never seen a vehicle make more with headers and a tune versus headers with OEM tune?

Phalanx - This HP tuners thing... you still have to buy the handheld device to do the tuning with, don't you? Did you consider any of the PCM exchange type options where they send you a tuned PCM, then you return your original to them? Seems like a reasonable option if the vendor does good tuning work, and if it's "that easy" to just swap PCMs.

I would definitely have to keep cats if I went with headers... how much of the ~20 whp gains are from the elimination of the cats? Am I only looking at 10-15 whp with LT's and cats? Are folks still getting the CELs even when they're keeping cats in the mix, or is the CEL related more to the cats than the LTs?

ls1247

iTrader: (2)

I'd have to keep cats too but how effective are these small aftermarket hi-flow cats? I don't want to drive a car that smells like a 73 chevy pickup....

phalanx_vette

Wes: HP tuners is a software program. You install it on a laptop and plug into the OBD2. Most tuners I know use this software. You can buy it for home use but it has a really steep learning curve. Typically you get about 3 cars worth of licenses with initial purchase, and you have to buy licenses from them to tune more cars. Tuners usually pay for "unlimited" licenses so they can tune any car that comes to their shop.

As far as the CEL it has more to do with the cats. The rear O2s sense that the cats aren't working efficiently, because really they aren't, when you get high flow cats. If you get LT's though, I think you'd be hard pressed to get the stock cats to fit. I didn't try, but they're F'ng huge.

wes8398

iTrader: (2)

I've used aftermarket cats a couple times, with good results. Even passed Ontario (Canada) emissions tests with them. You just have to get a quality name (Magnaflow or one of their offshoots), and proper size for your vehicle. Most people get aftermarket cats that are way too small for their application.... then complain that they're not compliant with emissions, etc.
I personally suggest the Magnaflow "bullet" or "spun" (one in the same) cats from personal experience. They're easy on space restrictions, and are built to work properly. You can get them with a ceramic substrate or stainless... I've gone with stainless in the past as they're supposed to last longer. Of course, that car got sold well before I could tell how long the cats lasted. These "spun" cats are exactly like what you'd see on those Mandrel Exhaust replacement 'cat pipes' for our V1's that are now out of production. I personally owned a set of these, but wound up un-installing because they made my exhaust WAAAY too loud and I didn't have the extra $$ to be buying a muffler setup. Those particular cats were pretty small/short, so I wondered if they'd do the job well enough, but I only ran them for a couple days before I had them uninstalled/sold. If you've never used them, there's a site called Performancepeddler.com that's always a helluva deal for magnaflow stuff. You can "make your best offer" (just offer $1) on most things and then they come back to you with a significantly discounted price. Can't beat 'em.

Oooooh, I gotcha. I'll have to see if anyone local does HP Tuners locally. Geeze, I'm getting all geared up to buy some headers now, and I really don't have a buck saved toward the purchase yet. lol

LSX Power Tuning

iTrader: (4)

I guess I could have worded it better but I said it right, never seen one make more stock tune vs tuned. I should have said untuned vs my tune or stock tune vs my tune so it was a little more clear.

wes8398

iTrader: (2)

I think I'm starting to hear the 'Twilight Zone' tune...

Ok, there's a good chance that I'm just half retarded, but I'm still not sure what you're saying. LOL You're saying that you tune cars and don't see any power gains over the stock tune? So don't bother tuning for headers? This doesn't make sense to me... especially coming from a guy who does tuning. But again, maybe I'm just retar........drunk......

LSX Power Tuning

iTrader: (4)

Re-read what I highlighted in BOLD. I have never seen a car with headers and STOCK TUNE make more power than one with CUSTOM TUNE and headers.

Stock Tune less power < Custom Tune more power

wes8398

iTrader: (2)

Oh, I read and re-read it before I asked for the clarification. It could be read more ways than one, that's all. "Headers with a tune will always outperform headers without a tune" would have been a little more succinct, but I'm not trying to be the english police here. At least you knew what you were trying to say. lol I figured what you meant, but there was a chance you meant it the other way around too. Anyway... that was a fun trip...now, back to earth...

So since you're a tuning guy... do you do the "PCM echange" kind of deal? Or would I have to send mine to you for tuning, and wait for it to come back? I obviously haven't perused your links yet, but I'm about to... Probably answer my own question(s) there... Thanks!!

EDIT: Now that I see you do a PCM/ECM exchange type thing, I have a question... Can you typically see decent results (worth the cost of the tune) on factory setups that haven't been modified? Or is it only worth looking into tuning once you're looking at mods like headers, intake, cam, etc? If you can get worthwhile results on a stock vehicle, what are the benefits (aside from a little more pep, I'm assuming)? What would be the price for an LS2 ECM if I had you send me one pre-calibrated and I sent you my original "core" after swapping them? Or is this possible?

BudRacing

iTrader: (3)

A remote tune is like tuning with a best guess based on past experiences with the same or similar setup.

A dynotune at a shop usually ranges from $400-$500 with a lesser cost for retunes.

Also, mine has the high flow cats that OBX supplied (not just the dummies). The exhaust smell is only slightly more potent than a stock setup. It's definitely not a raw gasoline smell. I haven't had it sniff tested since the install as it's not required and I'm not sure it would pass on a numbers basis, but it definitely functions well enough as a catalytic converter for me.

wes8398

iTrader: (2)

I would hazard a guess that a daily driver that's just got a few bolt-ons would probably be just fine with a "best guess" tune - especially if you have it done by someone with lots of experience to draw from. No?
And $400-$500 for your first dyno tune? You've still gotta buy a programmer (handheld) on top of that, don't you? Those are a couple hundred bucks or so alone, aren't they? And if a dyno tune is $400 in whatever State you're in, I can just about guarantee that they'll be twice that in my neck of the woods. There aren't nearly as many speed shops around here as there are around there. My best bet (IIRC from back in my Mustang days) would be a guy named Lideo at a shop in the Detroit area called Alternative Auto, who's apparently got a pretty good reputation. But at a 30% exchange rate these days, it's just too much money. If I were to drop $700 on headers, it'd be another couple hundred easy on the fab work to fit 'em up properly, etc. I can't do another grand on tuning on top of that... Not without making a concerted effort to start saving the money specifically for the job. I can swing the cost of the parts on a whim, but not 2 G's.

smitty2919

So, expect sub par headers, buy sub par headers, spend a little to make them fit and touch up some welds and still come out cheaper than buying Kooks/ARH. Not too bad.

Most people spend the money on Kooks/ARH for the no hassle fitment. 75% of people buy Kooks/ARH do so because they are stainless and just plop them on and go. Another 20% of the people will not see that benefit and buy OBX for stainless and that they are cheaper and plop them on and go. The remining 5% will do what the OP did and buy OBX, but inspect the crap out of them and find the short coming and do something about it to "fix it".

Unless you have a custom header made for your motor, all production made headers would perform relatively the same. The design of a production header is so vague that it "works" (aka make more power than stock) for anyone that bolts it on. All what people say it worth it to them in $/hp. If a Kooks header makes 5 more hp over OBX, I'm going OBX and dealing with the fitment issues. And that's not about me being "cheap", it's me having an opinion that the added cost of Kooks is not worth it to me.

isis

iTrader: (1)

HPTuners doesn't make you buy the hardware for each tune. I have it because I like to mess with my own cars but if I wanted to tune yours with mine I could. It just costs 2 credits and the thing comes with 8 I think. Or you can use 6 credits to tune an unlimited number of the same car. Any tuner who works with HPTuners will use their own 'handheld'. But yeah a best guess tune would be fine on a daily. I just added 2 degrees of timing from 3400 on up and changed the OL fuel targets from 11.1 (stock ) to 12.5. I don't hammer on it for any length of time and the logs look fine. I have stock exhaust manifolds and high flow cats though. Headers probably need some more extensive changes to the VE table. I'll get around to adding a wideband and fine tuning that someday when my son isn't a baby anymore. I did get the HPtuners with the analog inputs for that purpose so I should get around to using it. It's not even a DD now so I'm not worried.

BudRacing

iTrader: (3)

Yes, it's better than a stock tune, that's for sure.

No. They use their own equipment to tune it.