greddy91

iTrader: (2)

As many have said - the maggie is your limiter. Ls6 here right at 500hp after the cam upgrade, and with an improved HX. I went with a mild cam and driveability was retained extremely well. If I were looking for more HP I would likely overdrive the blower, but from what I saw the heat created by trying to squeeze 50hp more out of the blower wasn't really worth the effort nor good for longevity.

My advice - start looking for a way to change the number that follows LS while you still have a fully intact power plant to offer up for sale.

Oh... and for godsakes don't go up in gearing... as you certainly are well aware 3.73s are pretty useless already... if I had it to do over (I guess I do...) I would have elected to go down in gearing to something below 3.50.

barrok69

Randy,
I don't want to be over-driving my accessories with a larger crank pulley. I'd rather just 1:1 the rear of the maggie and put a bigger front pulley on to get better belt wrap.

As far as getting more power from an axle, I'm failing to see how a rear end makes my engine have more horsepower That doesn't make any sense. Regardless I'm happy with my 3.73's as it suits the few road tracks I race around locally and everytime I launch from a dig it I smile

I see alot of people mentioning upgrade the HEX. But all the ones that are mentioned are pretty darn small compared to what I currently have. I need to do some measuring and compare both stock maggie dimensions and frozenboost and see if the overall area difference is being compensated by wider width to get a better cooling coefficient over the stock unit or not.

Lots of good info so far, keep it coming

Martin Smallwood

iTrader: (2)

Push rod length with stock rockers doesn't move the wipe pattern like it does with an aftermarket roller rocker. You have to shim the rocker pedestal or mill the pedestal to correct wipe pattern. If you use push rod length to alter a stock rocker arms wipe pattern it will severely alter lifter preload and then you're creating more problems than when you started. It just doesn't work like that with stock rockers and you shouldn't be giving this kind of information to people on the board that may not know any better.

5w-50 weight oil? 60 weight oil? Even if there was a readily available 5w-50 weight oil in existence it isn't going to change the extreme angles that a stock rocker arm sees in relation to the valve stem tip at lifts higher than .630". A thicker weight oil isn't going to change how quickly that wear occurs either. You should cycle an engine by hand and watch the angle that a stock rocker sits at in relation to the valve tip past .600" lift. This is why cam grinders and cam retailers try to keep lift under .630" for engines that will see a lot of street miles and valve train cycles.



I wish I was at the dyno personally for the runs made with the cammed 112's, but I wasn't. I would have to agree 100% with you that once they became heat soaked that the power figures will drop a large amount. Trying to move that kind of airflow through a 112 will create a good bit of additional heat. I think that could be said for just about any pullied up 112 blower though, although not quite as bad as with a larger cam moving more airflow through the engine.

I am not up to speed with the current selection of heat exchangers, larger I/C fluid pumps for higher turnover rates or larger reservoirs for the Gen 1 V's with Maggie's on them. That said, when you start trying to move this kind of airflow through a 112 you will most certainly need a very efficient method of pulling the additional heat out of the intake charge to keep the charge dense enough to sustain higher power figures.

I like the E-force idea, I like it even better with a cam too! I'm not sure if there are a lot of Ethanol burning Maggie 112 V1's running around out there, but I would have to believe that set-up is the hot ticket with a overdriven cammed Maggie 112 combination.

DMM

Like I have said before, NAF is in his own world at times. Again, the most common response to his post is "That's not how that works, buddy", which pretty much sums your explanation above lol.

The V1 Maggie HEX setup is a bit of a bastardized design and is not very efficient especially when coupled with a small intercooler. Changing the flow routing of the Maggie HEX helps a bit, so does the upgraded pump. Also, there is no way to get air out of the Maggie setup which has its own consequences.

It's fun...when it isn't broke, that is lol. Contrary to popular belief, the E-Force is not the heat sink everyone makes it out to be. I typically run within 10* of ambient, as does at least one other forum member.

And thanks, Martin, for taking your time and contributing.

1BADCTS

iTrader: (17)

Super chiller! Expensive, but they do their job well.

Martin Smallwood

iTrader: (2)

Not a problem DMM!

Martin Smallwood

iTrader: (2)

Is that the one that ties into the A/C compressor?

itsslow98

iTrader: (18)

Yea it's a bigger market for the Ford guys. They make some great numbers through eatons on the 03 cobras.

All of the heat exchangers/killer chiller etc are bandaids for an inefficient blower at those levels. The e-force will make more power on less boost and make it all day.

Naf

iTrader: (1)

You have to be a Trump supporter...

Lets look at the facts, Lpe is one of the most successful performance shops hands down. They wouldn't go through the r&d costs just to watch them fail and pay out if the nose. They insist on using stock rockers vs what they say are crappy aftermarket rockers.

At the end of the day there are only a couple places that actually make camshafts compcams, and lpe asks compcams to make them to their specs.

If there was a serious issue with the rockers having excessive wear when you changed the cam than you may have had an issue before the cam change. Most vehicles with high miles would.

I used the gt11 cam on my V and i have another one in my new truck engine waitin to be installed.

I have also seen two cars get gt9 cams, one went from a gt11 to the gt9 and the other had an aussie vcm cam goin to the gt9 cam. The first car made 40hp and 35ftlb with the cam change, it was a 5.7 with ported heads jesel rockers and 2300 sc. The other made 25hp and 20ftlb, it had a 6.0 with ported heads stock rockers and 1900 sc.

The both cars were runnin 5w50 oil because for use here 5w30 has to be changed more often than 5w50 for it breaks down prematurely

How do i know all this,
1. I supplied all the gt series cams
2. I was there for the whole build

Those cars are both still on the road and both still burnin rubber.

I visited lpe and saw their facility first hand, i had the privilege of meetin everyone aside from Mr Lingenfelter.

You may also want to swap to ls9 injectors as they have a more narrow pattern vs bosch which is wider.

LLLosingit

iTrader: (4)

They are known for advertising big power... not longevity. There have been many discussions on cams and what works long term and what does not. That cam doesn't fit in the easy on the valvetrain category and never will. It's an aggressive lobe and that's a known fact. Yes it works but there are better options that are easier on the valvetrain for sure.
And yes he might be a trump supporter as am I, He doesn't gravy coat it and try to be PC to keep his sheeple happy.

Naf

iTrader: (1)

What we are forgettin is once you open the door to aftermarket parts, you maintenance schedules change.

You wont be able to get the same duration of parts lastin before they fatigue. Ie valve springs, timing chain, lifters, rockers, and valves need replacement sooner than normal. I have to ask Jeff but i think I have to change my valve springs after 50,000km as well as my timing chain. At 100,000km i feel i have to swap out the lifters and rockers.

Yes its easy to make power on the ls engines, but the more you make the more you have to be on top of your maintenance.

You are sacrificing durability for power so obviously there will be a higher cost to keep the power levels present.

More oil changes, more labor for swappin critical parts, and more downtime...

Naf

iTrader: (1)

God Help us all...

http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/03/politi...bio/index.html

The Kardashians bicker about the same topics...

http://decider.com/2016/03/03/dump-d...-donald-trump/

I dont watch the news often, but this makes me laugh...

DMM

I have to be a Trump supporter because you're an idiot? Literally almost everything you post is completely wrong or absolutely absurd. At first I thought it was misinformation, I was wrong. Almost everyone attempts to correct you (including subject matter experts in their own field of expertise) and yet you refuse to accept anything anyone tells you.

This statement makes about as much sense as everything else you post.

Oh, Jesus.

The only fact is that Ligenfelter made all their money in the 90's selling other people's **** boxes as their own to Corvette owners who were too stupid and/or ignorant to know any better. I started out as a Corvette/Camaro tech at Lustine Chevrolet in '94 and was a line tech the following year.

The Vette owners would bring me this garbage wrapped in Ligenfelter box that was nothing but off the shelf parts reboxed at 100% mark up.

To this day there is very little they actually make. Almost everything they offer is someone else's parts. They charge a premium to the ignorant and completely unaware; not surprised they hooked you.

Naf

iTrader: (1)

So put your money where your mouth is. Buy him the right cam for his setup with springs.

If you are so right prove it

rand49er

Yes, the crank pulley will overdrive your accessories, but it's only about 10% (IIRC) and it's no different than someone who doesn't upshift at lower RPMs while driving (like I do, for example).

By changing the axle ratio to the 3.91, you gain torque to the tire-road interface. It is the total multiplier of the combined transmission gear ratio and axle ratio that is made higher. Normally, cars are dyno'd with the transmission in the gear that gives a 1:1 ratio, 4th gear in our T56. That means the total ratio your car sees is the axle ratio, 3.73 in the case of our cars. If you increase that ratio, you're effectively applying more torque at a given engine speed albeit by generating it at a lower speed ... like a lever or pulley system. Yes, you sacrifice speed to do this, BUT our cars can't pull to redline in 6th gear as it is, so you're really NOT losing any top-end speed and may actually be gaining a bit since the motor will be allowed to run at a higher RPM and closer to its maximum power output while bucking the wind so may even gain a couple of MPH.

I don't know what's available in the aftermarket as far as a more effective HEX, but there's no doubt that further cooling the air going into the cylinders is going in a desirable direction. A couple of years ago, someone was talking about stealing some of the A/C output and utilizing it to further cool the incoming air. For sure, even though it draws HP to run the A/C, I believe it more than made up the difference by cooling the air providing a denser charge in the cylinders and more power. Never really saw much more from the guy doing this, but I also didn't go look for it, either.

So, in summary, over driving the accessories can be compensated for by upshifting a bit sooner, the overall drive ratio (which determines the torque applied to the road surface) is improved by going to a higher drive ratio without detracting from top-end speed, and improving the HEX (somehow) would help.

My $0.02.

1BADCTS

iTrader: (17)

.

Man, some of these posts remind me of the early downfall over on cadillacforum... please lets not let that happen. This is the only place I have left.

I think it was discussed above, but I moved up to 3.55's rather than 3.73's and love it. This is going the opposite direction in terms of effective power transfer to the pavement, but I like it and wish I'd done it sooner. With nearly 700 HP at the tires though, my experience may be different than what you'd experience in a more stockish setup.

The A/C thing is done by several companies (Superchiller, Killerchiller... maybe others). A buddy had one on his Mustang and it worked great. 60 degree IAT's in 95 degree weather, no blower heat soak, never had to deal with the ECU pulling timing due to high IAT's. Like somebody else said it compensates for the heat due to overdriving a smaller blower.

barrok69

I understand the axle torque multiplication, but that's not for me. My original question is to squeeze more out of the motor. The current 3.73 gearing is perfect for my application right now and I can be in pretty much any gear and not lug around unless it's at 1000rpm in 6th. Like I mentioned earlier I'm looking for power increase through the higher RPM band and these gears wouldn't help there.

I drive my vehicle to redline frequently so short shifting isn't an option for me. Regardless of short shifting if it is a 10% increase, it's 10% everywhere through the RPM range so There is no need to be putting the accessories through that. I bought the car to drive it, not to puts around town with and be short shifting :/ That's the whole reason I deleted the CAGS and why most cars today suck to drive because they are calibrated for fuel economy, not drivability.

I've been eyeing the Superchiller system since it came out for our cars a few years ago. It makes sense for the drag racing guy, but I need to look into it more for what It can do for road race/street stuff. To date I haven't had any heat soak issues with the bit of spirited driving or road course racing I've done, but I can see upping the boost will degrade my current situation so I need to address that somehow.

The TVS 1900/2300 idea sounds good at first, but I would probably just build an LS3 from the ground up with that application. Plus the cost for what I want to accomplish is out of my current budget.
I've driven a few TVS modded cars and I must say... the Maggie hits harder quicker, but obviously doesn't have the range and top end that the TVS units have.

If I was in the market for 650whp I'd go TVS 2300 no question. but I'd like to keep this thing "semi-civil" at a measly 550whp

rand49er

I failed to mention that going to the 3.91 axle would exacerbate a traction-limited car, and going to a 3.55, while reducing the power available at the tires compared to the stock ratio, would actually help it. Not sure about your caddy forums comment.

And, yes, those sound like the names of the A/C companies I recall. Sounds like a credible solution though admittedly I have no first-hand experience with any of them.

Naf

iTrader: (1)

I agree, go lower on rear ratio, your engine and sc will thank you.

Havin the SC gives you more torque sooner then most NAs, and you dont have to worry about revvin it up like a NA.

GM put in the 3.73 in our caddies just to help with the initial accel so we break the 0-60 in just under 5 sec.

I switched to the Vette's 3.42 rear ratio, i am very happy cruisin around town, and when i start to punch it, my stroked LS3 will still spin them wheels with no issues.

Naf

iTrader: (1)

You know, we have been missin the easiest approach for you...

Why dont you score a 6.0, slap on stock LS3 heads, upgrade to LS9 valves, LS9 Cam, LS7 rockers and find a LSA TVS1900 and slap it on. You will have great drivablilty, breakneck power, and its all affordable.

This give you a gateway to even more promisin power with more potential to grow.