Anyone installed Philistine's MC along with a slave spacer?
12-12-2014, 08:51 PM
#41
The PMC could still very likely increase the slave's effectiveness... no? The preload I have is very minimal, and who knows how inadequate my hydraulic system is. The preload solved the "drag" I was getting, but shifting is still pretty notchy, and it's always a PITA to downshift to 2nd around town... takes far too much f'n around...
Reference: end of this thread-
https://ls1tech.com/forums/cadillac-cts-v/1719968-shimming-ls7-slave.html
Last edited by isis; 12-12-2014 at 08:58 PM.
12-13-2014, 09:31 AM
#43
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Again I'm nearly positive that when you posted your measurements you ended up at a negative spacing around .0014" or something. That's the preload. But it's also very minor. It means that when bolted in, you don't have space, but do have pressure. The PMC can't overextend your slave, so it won't hurt. If the problem that caused you to shim was hydraulics, then it can be fixed with the PMC without more worry than running as-is
That said, is it not an issue that even a small amount of preload can melt this plastic sleeve on the slave? I thought the melting was caused from the pilot bearing spinning all the time (because of the preload); which would mean that any amount of preload - even just a little bit - could cause this issue. Am I misguided here?
Philistine - I feel like I know a little too much about you now that I've seen your toe-knuckle hair...
12-13-2014, 10:09 AM
#45
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Yah, sorry, I wasn't trying to say the PMC would have any effect on this sleeve melting issue (if it is a real issue). Just trying to decide whether I should pay to have the shim removed at the same time I have the PMC done to prevent this potential issue.
12-13-2014, 10:36 AM
#46
I'm also paranoid and would remove the shim if it were me, but I'm not sure there's a right or wrong answer. It may be accelerating wear. You might also find damage and spend more money while you're in there. It may be doing nothing at all.
12-15-2014, 12:18 AM
#48
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Thanks! Your post is good to hear, but is this just an opinion or do you have any supporting evidence? How did this "issue" ever surface if it's not actually a problem or potential problem though?
12-15-2014, 09:49 AM
#49
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Edit: Didn't read the second part. I just woke up... I think it came up because someone brought up shimming and added friction. Friction = heat. Too much heat can do damage. Look at how many people really beat on their cars from time to time (I'll raise my own hand there) and see how many have melted a slave. Its not an issue
Last edited by ryridesmotox; 12-15-2014 at 10:02 AM.
12-15-2014, 04:36 PM
#51
I'm pretty sure a small amount of shim, as in .100" is going to be fine with a self adjusting cover (SAC) like the LS7. Total adjustment range is probably .750" or more at the TOB contact point. The SAC adjustment rings is allowed to rotate as the clutch wears pressure plate moves further from the cover. The same scenario can happen if the clutch is moved a certain degree past the release point (exactly how far past I don't know). I'm pretty sure the PMC would help with making the adjustment trigger faster because of the longer throw, and therefore potentially release the preload.
I measured the same approx. gap with a new LS7 clutch, slave & FW, .025", which I figured did not require a shim, but I have no experience with a SAC. I did not removed the spring, but I did compress the TOB until it felt like it was hitting the stop. I really didn't want to risk damaging the capture ring on the end of the quill sleeve trying to remove the spring. In any case, occasionally the slave will 'kick-back' leaving an extra gap, which lowers the release point. Normally the spring will keep the TOB as far forward as possible to prevent this, but it isn't 100% in my case. When it happens I just pump the pedal a few times (only to the point of first resistance) and it seems to correct itself. Either there is something about removing the spring as Tick recommends, or the SAC feature is changing the gap.
The stock master really only works well when the TOB gap is tight, because the fluid volume is really only barely enough to disengage the clutch. That is why Tick makes shims, because the tolerance is so critical. If you add some preload, you would normally 'help' by reducing the total distance required for full release, but if you are still having issues with shifting, I would guess either the syncros are completely shot, you have the wrong tranny fluid, or the SAC has compensated for the preload, and you need a larger MC.
Michael
I measured the same approx. gap with a new LS7 clutch, slave & FW, .025", which I figured did not require a shim, but I have no experience with a SAC. I did not removed the spring, but I did compress the TOB until it felt like it was hitting the stop. I really didn't want to risk damaging the capture ring on the end of the quill sleeve trying to remove the spring. In any case, occasionally the slave will 'kick-back' leaving an extra gap, which lowers the release point. Normally the spring will keep the TOB as far forward as possible to prevent this, but it isn't 100% in my case. When it happens I just pump the pedal a few times (only to the point of first resistance) and it seems to correct itself. Either there is something about removing the spring as Tick recommends, or the SAC feature is changing the gap.
The stock master really only works well when the TOB gap is tight, because the fluid volume is really only barely enough to disengage the clutch. That is why Tick makes shims, because the tolerance is so critical. If you add some preload, you would normally 'help' by reducing the total distance required for full release, but if you are still having issues with shifting, I would guess either the syncros are completely shot, you have the wrong tranny fluid, or the SAC has compensated for the preload, and you need a larger MC.
Michael
12-15-2014, 08:36 PM
#53
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Is this in reference to anything in particular? Do you have something to add to the conversation?
Wow, great info Michael. Thanks for posting it. To be completely honest, I've never taken into account that this clutch is self-adjusting. I did know that this was a feature, but it just didn't come to mind when I started trying to learn about the install and required/suggested supporting mods. Thankfully, even with the self-adjustment factor, the shim that I had installed has kept the clutch drag away. I've tested it out a number of times since the shim install and the car's never crept forward on me again like it did before the shim.
With the help of all you guys here, I've definitely come to the conclusion that I'm going to save my money by leaving the shim there and just installing the PMC. Once again, you've all been very helpful and I thank you all for your efforts. Once I get at the PMC job, I'll be sure to follow up with results!
I'm pretty sure a small amount of shim, as in .100" is going to be fine with a self adjusting cover (SAC) like the LS7. Total adjustment range is probably .750" or more at the TOB contact point. The SAC adjustment rings is allowed to rotate as the clutch wears pressure plate moves further from the cover. The same scenario can happen if the clutch is moved a certain degree past the release point (exactly how far past I don't know). I'm pretty sure the PMC would help with making the adjustment trigger faster because of the longer throw, and therefore potentially release the preload.
I measured the same approx. gap with a new LS7 clutch, slave & FW, .025", which I figured did not require a shim, but I have no experience with a SAC. I did not removed the spring, but I did compress the TOB until it felt like it was hitting the stop. I really didn't want to risk damaging the capture ring on the end of the quill sleeve trying to remove the spring. In any case, occasionally the slave will 'kick-back' leaving an extra gap, which lowers the release point. Normally the spring will keep the TOB as far forward as possible to prevent this, but it isn't 100% in my case. When it happens I just pump the pedal a few times (only to the point of first resistance) and it seems to correct itself. Either there is something about removing the spring as Tick recommends, or the SAC feature is changing the gap.
The stock master really only works well when the TOB gap is tight, because the fluid volume is really only barely enough to disengage the clutch. That is why Tick makes shims, because the tolerance is so critical. If you add some preload, you would normally 'help' by reducing the total distance required for full release, but if you are still having issues with shifting, I would guess either the syncros are completely shot, you have the wrong tranny fluid, or the SAC has compensated for the preload, and you need a larger MC.
Michael
I measured the same approx. gap with a new LS7 clutch, slave & FW, .025", which I figured did not require a shim, but I have no experience with a SAC. I did not removed the spring, but I did compress the TOB until it felt like it was hitting the stop. I really didn't want to risk damaging the capture ring on the end of the quill sleeve trying to remove the spring. In any case, occasionally the slave will 'kick-back' leaving an extra gap, which lowers the release point. Normally the spring will keep the TOB as far forward as possible to prevent this, but it isn't 100% in my case. When it happens I just pump the pedal a few times (only to the point of first resistance) and it seems to correct itself. Either there is something about removing the spring as Tick recommends, or the SAC feature is changing the gap.
The stock master really only works well when the TOB gap is tight, because the fluid volume is really only barely enough to disengage the clutch. That is why Tick makes shims, because the tolerance is so critical. If you add some preload, you would normally 'help' by reducing the total distance required for full release, but if you are still having issues with shifting, I would guess either the syncros are completely shot, you have the wrong tranny fluid, or the SAC has compensated for the preload, and you need a larger MC.
Michael
With the help of all you guys here, I've definitely come to the conclusion that I'm going to save my money by leaving the shim there and just installing the PMC. Once again, you've all been very helpful and I thank you all for your efforts. Once I get at the PMC job, I'll be sure to follow up with results!
12-15-2014, 10:32 PM
#60
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Don't let 54 ruin a thread that I'm sure others (who are obviously also far inferior to 54) may find useful in the future. He just likes to troll around and assert his self-assessed superiority every once in a while. Judging by his sentiments, there's a prerequisite of advanced mechanical knowledge before you are 'allowed' to be a member on forums like this. Funny, I've never heard of such a thing. To be honest, these places exist as much for the "noob" as they do for anyone else.
I'll be the first to admit that I know very little about cars compared to a mechanic. I've learned from following Haynes/Chilton manuals and doing little things myself ever since my first car. Forums like this and the help that their members offer has saved me thousands and helped me learn a lot. Clearly, not near as much as 54's superior level of mastery, but I've learned a lot. And that includes these past months that I've been dealing with this clutch swap. I've learned a ton, mostly thanks to members here.
Why 54's panties are getting all knotted up with this particular thread is beyond me; but sometimes it's not worth searching for an explanation. I thought my original question as well as any follow up questions were reasonable and fair. It's not like I was asking what size tires I can fit on the rear of my car for the billionth time or something. I make a very concerted effort to answer my own questions (via google or forum search) before I ask them here.
I digress.
By "original issue", do you mean the reason why I put the LS7 in to begin with? I really didn't have an issue to speak of besides vibrations coming from the POS dual mass flywheel that had apparently deteriorated. It shifted fine (relative to how these cars shift), etc. My biggest annoyance was just having to fight lazy/city driving/coasting downshifts to 2nd quite often (which I still have to do). I just liked what I'd heard about the LS7 swap and wanted to give it a try.
In my mind (which apparently means nothing), there's no doubt that the PMC would have solved the clutch drag issue that arose after the initial clutch install just as well (probably better) than the shim did. Unfortunately timing wasn't on my side and the PMC wasn't released until a month or two after I had already "rectified" the drag issue with the Tick's shim. I still think there's more room for improvement though, so that's why I'm doing the PMC now too.
Again, thanks everyone for your input and assistance.
I'll be the first to admit that I know very little about cars compared to a mechanic. I've learned from following Haynes/Chilton manuals and doing little things myself ever since my first car. Forums like this and the help that their members offer has saved me thousands and helped me learn a lot. Clearly, not near as much as 54's superior level of mastery, but I've learned a lot. And that includes these past months that I've been dealing with this clutch swap. I've learned a ton, mostly thanks to members here.
Why 54's panties are getting all knotted up with this particular thread is beyond me; but sometimes it's not worth searching for an explanation. I thought my original question as well as any follow up questions were reasonable and fair. It's not like I was asking what size tires I can fit on the rear of my car for the billionth time or something. I make a very concerted effort to answer my own questions (via google or forum search) before I ask them here.
I digress.
In my mind (which apparently means nothing), there's no doubt that the PMC would have solved the clutch drag issue that arose after the initial clutch install just as well (probably better) than the shim did. Unfortunately timing wasn't on my side and the PMC wasn't released until a month or two after I had already "rectified" the drag issue with the Tick's shim. I still think there's more room for improvement though, so that's why I'm doing the PMC now too.
Again, thanks everyone for your input and assistance.
Last edited by wes8398; 12-15-2014 at 10:41 PM.