Anyone installed Philistine's MC along with a slave spacer?
12-16-2014, 07:16 AM
#61
You stand to learn a lot more from 54 than he'll ever learn from you...Just sayin....
But what you're learning here is sometimes there are no answers, sometimes it doesn't make sense, we don't know everything and you're just going to have to try some things, take a few chances and see what happens. We're coloring outside the lines here a little....
As many have pointed out, the master is the easiest thing to do, it shouldn't negatively affect your clutch operation or condition based on the solid opinions that have been voiced here and its a good mod meaning it wouldn't be a waste of time or money one way or the other.
This would be something good for YOU to do and up your wrenching cred a little around here....
12-16-2014, 07:59 AM
#62
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In case anyone's wondering, ls1247 is whining about a thread from a few months ago where he and I (and a number of others) had a difference of opinion on aftermarket vs OEM parts. A topic that you don't have to be a "mechanic" to dispute.
ls1247 - When I called you an idiot (and whatever else I called you), I was referring to your personality and general ignorance. I wasn't going after your "wrenching cred" - whatever the **** that is. And many others joined me in that sentiment. Much like they do when 54 has his little outbursts. To each their own though; none of this is any skin off my back. Be an idiot if that's what you need to do. I'll just continue to call it like I see it.
So, thanks for telling me "what I'm learning here" and thanks for summarizing the thread for the 3rd or 5th time, but next time save yourself the effort and take your little soapbox elsewhere. Otherwise, please just follow my suggestion to 54 a few posts ago.
And for the record, I have every intention of doing the PMC install myself if I can get at it before my garage hits below zero consistently. It was the trans drop (if i had to remove the shim) that I was going to hire out and my guy said he'd just do the new MC for me while he was in there anyway.
ls1247 - When I called you an idiot (and whatever else I called you), I was referring to your personality and general ignorance. I wasn't going after your "wrenching cred" - whatever the **** that is. And many others joined me in that sentiment. Much like they do when 54 has his little outbursts. To each their own though; none of this is any skin off my back. Be an idiot if that's what you need to do. I'll just continue to call it like I see it.
So, thanks for telling me "what I'm learning here" and thanks for summarizing the thread for the 3rd or 5th time, but next time save yourself the effort and take your little soapbox elsewhere. Otherwise, please just follow my suggestion to 54 a few posts ago.
And for the record, I have every intention of doing the PMC install myself if I can get at it before my garage hits below zero consistently. It was the trans drop (if i had to remove the shim) that I was going to hire out and my guy said he'd just do the new MC for me while he was in there anyway.
Last edited by wes8398; 12-16-2014 at 08:11 AM.
12-16-2014, 08:26 AM
#63
In case anyone's wondering, ls1247 is whining about a thread from a few months ago where he and I (and a number of others) had a difference of opinion on aftermarket vs OEM parts. A topic that you don't have to be a "mechanic" to dispute.
ls1247 - When I called you an idiot (and whatever else I called you), I was referring to your personality and general ignorance. I wasn't going after your "wrenching cred" - whatever the **** that is. And many others joined me in that sentiment. Much like they do when 54 has his little outbursts. To each their own though; none of this is any skin off my back. Be an idiot if that's what you need to do. I'll just continue to call it like I see it.
So, thanks for telling me "what I'm learning here" and thanks for summarizing the thread for the 3rd or 5th time, but next time save yourself the effort and take your little soapbox elsewhere. Otherwise, please just follow my suggestion to 54 a few posts ago.
And for the record, I have every intention of doing the PMC install myself if I can get at it before my garage hits below zero consistently. It was the trans drop (if i had to remove the shim) that I was going to hire out and my guy said he'd just do the new MC for me while he was in there anyway.
ls1247 - When I called you an idiot (and whatever else I called you), I was referring to your personality and general ignorance. I wasn't going after your "wrenching cred" - whatever the **** that is. And many others joined me in that sentiment. Much like they do when 54 has his little outbursts. To each their own though; none of this is any skin off my back. Be an idiot if that's what you need to do. I'll just continue to call it like I see it.
So, thanks for telling me "what I'm learning here" and thanks for summarizing the thread for the 3rd or 5th time, but next time save yourself the effort and take your little soapbox elsewhere. Otherwise, please just follow my suggestion to 54 a few posts ago.
And for the record, I have every intention of doing the PMC install myself if I can get at it before my garage hits below zero consistently. It was the trans drop (if i had to remove the shim) that I was going to hire out and my guy said he'd just do the new MC for me while he was in there anyway.
12-16-2014, 04:13 PM
#65
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That's what I assumed. Thanks for your help. After having all the input here, I'm much more confident that I'm on the right track. And it's nice to be reassured that I don't need to have the trans dropped again. 
After the PMC install I think I'm going to replace Brian's 1st gen shifter with Max's from Creative Steel too. That thing looks like a piece of art! Haha I'll have this car shifting like my wife's Mazda in no time! (Yah, right!)
After the PMC install I think I'm going to replace Brian's 1st gen shifter with Max's from Creative Steel too. That thing looks like a piece of art! Haha I'll have this car shifting like my wife's Mazda in no time! (Yah, right!)
12-16-2014, 04:57 PM
#66
Funny thing, I'm an engineer but I've done enough tech support and applications stuff that I find rambling and winding Q&A is quite useful for information gathering. Even things that sound inane or questionable are still useful at guiding you to the right questions and then to the right solutions. Experts and experienced people get frustrated with that approach but the internet almost requires the meandering with all the different people chiming in. Many people don't consider the background info, the sequence of 'how we got here' or the specific conditions of a certain issue and just spit out answers they read or figured out for their single or personal understanding of the issue. Remote troubleshooting is a nuanced skill. You don't need the answer you just guide the conversation. (Not saying I did anything here, to the contrary, actually; I was just trying to understand all the conditions and keep facts straight). This is helpful to me because I will install an LS7 clutch and PMC the second my stocker whispers the first sign of an issue. Your issue wasn't terribly common but it did happen and following your trial and error helped me understand how to avoid the issue even if there's only a 5-10% chance or whatever that the stock MC and the LS7 clutch don't play well together. I learned something and making a record of that helps some people even if it's annoying or frustrating for more experienced people to read through.
12-16-2014, 05:35 PM
#67
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isis - I totally agree. And I'm glad you found this thread useful. My hope whenever I start a thread is to create something that will not only get me to an answer but also provide folks after me answers to their questions too (provided they use the search function). That's why I try to "close out" each thread with follow ups and conclusions about how things wound up working out. I do this because I do a fair amount of searching and sifting through older posts, and threads like this are always very useful.
I dug around EVERY thread here and at CF for over a year before I pulled the trigger on this ls7 kit. That turned out to be equally as confusing as it was helpful, but to no fault of the information or threads themselves. There was just a gap between "old" and "new" (updated) info on the topic. Regardless, there were a ton of rambling and meandering threads that I learned a lot from. Maybe this thread will become one of those for someone else down the road. And if its too frustrating or too "beneath" someone to read... Nobody's holding a gun to their head to read it.
Thanks again for all the help everyone. I'll be back with updates down the road.
I dug around EVERY thread here and at CF for over a year before I pulled the trigger on this ls7 kit. That turned out to be equally as confusing as it was helpful, but to no fault of the information or threads themselves. There was just a gap between "old" and "new" (updated) info on the topic. Regardless, there were a ton of rambling and meandering threads that I learned a lot from. Maybe this thread will become one of those for someone else down the road. And if its too frustrating or too "beneath" someone to read... Nobody's holding a gun to their head to read it.
Thanks again for all the help everyone. I'll be back with updates down the road.
12-16-2014, 09:24 PM
#68
So fellas, what are the answers because I haven't seen any definitive ones come out of this.
If you're an engineer you should know that the first thing you do is measure all of the parts and assemblies being used against an engineering standard that we don't have which means that ultimately, you're guessing.
If you're an engineer you should know that the first thing you do is measure all of the parts and assemblies being used against an engineering standard that we don't have which means that ultimately, you're guessing.
12-17-2014, 12:31 AM
#70
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Thanks for the contribution, 54. Good for anyone else to see a quick summary of someone else's experiences. Hopefully mine goes the same way... Not including the synchro issues.
12-17-2014, 04:37 PM
#72
So fellas, what are the answers because I haven't seen any definitive ones come out of this.
If you're an engineer you should know that the first thing you do is measure all of the parts and assemblies being used against an engineering standard that we don't have which means that ultimately, you're guessing.
If you're an engineer you should know that the first thing you do is measure all of the parts and assemblies being used against an engineering standard that we don't have which means that ultimately, you're guessing.
The issue here is that Wes was forced to have his clutch shimmed to the point that it's out of spec, just to get it to work. This happened before the PMC was finished and available. His question was whether adding the PMC without taking out the shim will fix or hurt anything. The deduction, reached through the winding conversation is that it won't fix the fact that it's improperly shimmed, but if there is accelerated wear or damage going on, it won't make it worse either. There may be no current reason to add the new master cylinder but he's got one, and it won't hurt to put it in. It's called deductive reasoning and it doesn't require a calculation or standard. Not all engineering does.
My only statement regarding the whole thing is that having the conversation wasn't useless for everybody, and anyone who feels it is, is free to read something else.
12-17-2014, 05:34 PM
#73
Not sure what you're after at this point really. The measurements and standards were done before this thread was started. His clutch is not in the proper spec as the calculations show but that's what got it to work. The proper fix would be philistines MC who designed it after he had done the math and presented why and how it helps the clutch drag issue, as well as prototyping and trial runs.
The issue here is that Wes was forced to have his clutch shimmed to the point that it's out of spec, just to get it to work. This happened before the PMC was finished and available. His question was whether adding the PMC without taking out the shim will fix or hurt anything. The deduction, reached through the winding conversation is that it won't fix the fact that it's improperly shimmed, but if there is accelerated wear or damage going on, it won't make it worse either. There may be no current reason to add the new master cylinder but he's got one, and it won't hurt to put it in. It's called deductive reasoning and it doesn't require a calculation or standard. Not all engineering does.
My only statement regarding the whole thing is that having the conversation wasn't useless for everybody, and anyone who feels it is, is free to read something else.
The issue here is that Wes was forced to have his clutch shimmed to the point that it's out of spec, just to get it to work. This happened before the PMC was finished and available. His question was whether adding the PMC without taking out the shim will fix or hurt anything. The deduction, reached through the winding conversation is that it won't fix the fact that it's improperly shimmed, but if there is accelerated wear or damage going on, it won't make it worse either. There may be no current reason to add the new master cylinder but he's got one, and it won't hurt to put it in. It's called deductive reasoning and it doesn't require a calculation or standard. Not all engineering does.
My only statement regarding the whole thing is that having the conversation wasn't useless for everybody, and anyone who feels it is, is free to read something else.
The proper fix is to figure out his clutch is or wasn't in the proper spec to begin with. The slave shims are making up for some dimensional deficiency and if we had the engineering specs for an LS7 clutch as it was designed by GM along with the bellhousing dimensions, I would bet we could figure out what is throwing some, but not all of us, off here for good and be done with this. I can't help but think there is some variance in the parts we're using that's causing this but we'll never know and it drives me nuts.
The master cylinder upgrade is another "hit or miss" mod. For some, the results have been very noticeable but for others, me included, not so much. How do we explain this? We can't or we haven't here anyway.
Not saying I'm not glad I installed my PMC because I like the pedal feel and the adjustability of it but my shift quality really hasn't improved quantifiably....I got blocked out of first today and I'm not surprised because I've owned many manual transmission cars that required a certain amount of "indexing" to get the gears to fall together.
I fix stuff all day everyday and not being able to get to the answers I want drives me crazy. We have acceptable compensators here but not fixes IMHO.
12-17-2014, 07:11 PM
#74
I was not aware of your issues. Maybe your problem isn't clutch drag due to inadequate hydraulics. If it isn't, then the PMC wouldn't fix it.
Wes's measurements in the other thread show that with the shim, he's out of proper tolerances. It's not a fix, it's an improper bandaid that happened to work. (Credit to your point on that one)
There are a million issues with the shifter in these cars. Maybe your problem isn't clutch drag. If that's the case, this discussion would indeed be useless to you.
For me, regardless, I feel that if you are doing the ls7 clutch and slave, the PMC is a perfect complement and I wouldn't do the former without the latter.
For Wes, I would actually remove the shim. Knowing its out of spec would drive me to remove it, but that's just guessing and paranoia on my part. (Again, credit to your point on that) either way, he's in no worse or better shape if he doesn't remove it before adding the better master.
See how valuable discussion can be on a discussion forum? Good luck hunting your gremlin and please share if you find something definitive.
Wes's measurements in the other thread show that with the shim, he's out of proper tolerances. It's not a fix, it's an improper bandaid that happened to work. (Credit to your point on that one)
There are a million issues with the shifter in these cars. Maybe your problem isn't clutch drag. If that's the case, this discussion would indeed be useless to you.
For me, regardless, I feel that if you are doing the ls7 clutch and slave, the PMC is a perfect complement and I wouldn't do the former without the latter.
For Wes, I would actually remove the shim. Knowing its out of spec would drive me to remove it, but that's just guessing and paranoia on my part. (Again, credit to your point on that) either way, he's in no worse or better shape if he doesn't remove it before adding the better master.
See how valuable discussion can be on a discussion forum? Good luck hunting your gremlin and please share if you find something definitive.
12-17-2014, 08:23 PM
#77
I don't know man, these slave shim threads can go on for a while....watch this....
There seems to have been fewer clutch slave shimming issues reported with the ** issued LS7 clutch assemblies than there ********** counterparts.
I had to edit this...just couldn't do it to you....
There seems to have been fewer clutch slave shimming issues reported with the ** issued LS7 clutch assemblies than there ********** counterparts.
I had to edit this...just couldn't do it to you....
Last edited by ls1247; 12-17-2014 at 08:36 PM.
12-17-2014, 08:37 PM
#78
I feel your frustration. But this isn't really one of them. The shim worked at first, despite the specified gap being violated. The best bet solution is a properly gapped clutch and a higher volume master cylinder. But either way if your only issue is shift quality and an occaisional blocked gear entry, and the PMC doesn't fix it, you've likely got another issue. The math behind it as a solution is solid and it makes physical sense. But that's only as a solution to a particular problem, not to all problems.
