Ls motors vs Early gen SBC
04-05-2012, 09:56 PM
#21
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (9)
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Rocky Mtn thin air & snow...
Posts: 1,237
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
I will freely admit that I'm biased - but regardless of that, consider the following:
Think of it this way - Moore's Law states that computing power roughly DOUBLES every 18 months. The original SBC debuted in 1955 (virtually NO computers used outside of government). The LS-series of engines debuted in 1997. YOU do the math...
Basically - you can build a Gen-I small block... Just like you can build a F*rd flathead - but why would you???
- The cost "savings"
that some people claim that they get with a carburetor are effectively eliminated when you look at the ignition controller (MSD 6LS or similar) that's required when using a carb. - It was mentioned in one of the replies above this one - efficient fuel metering has a LOT to do with how long a set of piston rings will last. Compared to EFI, carburetors are sloppy as hell. You will almost NEVER get a carbureted engine to last the same number of miles as a reasonably well designed EFI engine.
- The Gen-I Chevy small-block engine came with cylinder heads that have a 23-degree valve angle. If you want to $pend a fair bit of money, you can get SBC heads with a 15-degree valve angle that flow a lot better, but these are generally considered to be race parts. EVERY LS-series engine - from the 6.2L that I'm using to the lowliest "turd" of a 4.8L - has a 15-degree valve angle. (OH WAIT, THAT'S NOT EXACTLY TRUE - the LS7 has a TWELVE-degree valve angle!!!)
- Even if you're not looking for "*****-out power", the LS-series engines just "curb-stomp" the dog$#it out of the older engines. In addition to the much more efficient valve angles, there are also a lot of other, hidden benefits to the LS-type engines - things like hollow-core camshafts to reduce reciprocating mass, etc. Do some research, & prepare to be blown away...
Think of it this way - Moore's Law states that computing power roughly DOUBLES every 18 months. The original SBC debuted in 1955 (virtually NO computers used outside of government). The LS-series of engines debuted in 1997. YOU do the math...
Basically - you can build a Gen-I small block... Just like you can build a F*rd flathead - but why would you???
04-05-2012, 11:52 PM
#22
Having my LY6 open, the improvements in design are everywhere to be seen. Six bolt mains. Cast timing cover without any goofy sealing surfaces. Better valve angles. Roller rockers. Roller cam. Cross ventilation between cylinders in the block. Floating wrist pins (on gen 4 engines). Nodular crank. Hypereutectic pistons. Crank driven oil pump. Factory windage tray. And that's not even considering all the control systems for ignition and fuel.
These are a very nice upgrade over the early smallblocks in many regards. I think to build in the same features above you will end up spending a lot more on a small block and end up with something less reliable and less powerful.
These are a very nice upgrade over the early smallblocks in many regards. I think to build in the same features above you will end up spending a lot more on a small block and end up with something less reliable and less powerful.
04-06-2012, 12:44 AM
#23
The LS is just a better design, 50yr newer technology. I read an article in hotrod about converting an old sbc or maybe it was an LT1 car to an LS ignition system alone and it gained 25hp over a distributor, and thats just the ignition system let alone all the other little improvments. Thats why mod for mod the LS makes more power, although gen 1 stuff is cheaper.
On an Olds 403 I went from points to a HEI, then HEI to CNP (LS coils) running on a FAST eDIST box. The difference from HEI to CNP was like the difference from points to HEI all over again.
This was early 2000's, guys were arguing over which billet distributor was better when that wasn't even the question.
With modern controls (port EFI, CNP, e-trans) installed on a 50+ year old design Olds motor it did everything an LS motor does - except the power level and MPG. Killed me to do it but installed an LY6 for less than a rebuild on the tired 403 would cost. After starting it up and driving it around the block my only complaint is I didn't do it sooner!
04-06-2012, 06:55 PM
#24
The difference in driveability is enough for me to never look back to the SBC. I've been DD my swap for the last month, something I never wanted to do w/ my old SBC rx7 swap. Any complaint I have w/ my truck is not related to the engine. The rx7 was tedious to drive after you've been spoiled by modern engines.
04-07-2012, 11:34 AM
#25
Teching In
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thank you guys for all the info. But I still have a few more questions.
How much would a carb swap be if I still wanted to do that. Even though I am understanding the benefits of EFI.
What is the usual cost of a LS motor from a junkyard or classified?
What vehicles have an Ly6 motor in them and is this an less expensive swap ten a 6L?
How difficult is it to work with EFI. How expensive is it to DIY. Cost of computers?
What are the other requirements that need to be made to have a EFI swap? i.e. the fuel pump needs to be in the tank..... etc?
Has any one put an LS in their hot rod? a car from 1954 and earlier???? What are the headaches?
What is the simplest way to get an LS that produces the best torque? Is it as simple as the futureuser combo??? Any other suggestions? I have heard grab a 6l and throw L82 heads on it. what about a stroked 5.3L.... Seeing that the 5.3 will be cheap to get but the stroker kit will be 2500 so I am not sure which would be the better route.Anything else?
One last thing. this build will not be happening in the next month but more likely in a year or so... Out of curiosity in a couple years do you think LS prices will drop do to more of them in the junkyards?
Thank you
How much would a carb swap be if I still wanted to do that. Even though I am understanding the benefits of EFI.
What is the usual cost of a LS motor from a junkyard or classified?
What vehicles have an Ly6 motor in them and is this an less expensive swap ten a 6L?
How difficult is it to work with EFI. How expensive is it to DIY. Cost of computers?
What are the other requirements that need to be made to have a EFI swap? i.e. the fuel pump needs to be in the tank..... etc?
Has any one put an LS in their hot rod? a car from 1954 and earlier???? What are the headaches?
What is the simplest way to get an LS that produces the best torque? Is it as simple as the futureuser combo??? Any other suggestions? I have heard grab a 6l and throw L82 heads on it. what about a stroked 5.3L.... Seeing that the 5.3 will be cheap to get but the stroker kit will be 2500 so I am not sure which would be the better route.Anything else?
One last thing. this build will not be happening in the next month but more likely in a year or so... Out of curiosity in a couple years do you think LS prices will drop do to more of them in the junkyards?
Thank you
04-07-2012, 12:11 PM
#27
AHHH sorry I see you touched upon the tranny situation already.
Seeing that you have a carbed LS motor how do you feel it is on gas mileage??? Also do you see a big difference between the two good or bad? I just prefer a carb because there is no use of computers and I think trouble shooting is easier. Did you go with the coil pack swap or the front distributor style for the swap?
Seeing that you have a carbed LS motor how do you feel it is on gas mileage??? Also do you see a big difference between the two good or bad? I just prefer a carb because there is no use of computers and I think trouble shooting is easier. Did you go with the coil pack swap or the front distributor style for the swap?
Gas mileage, my Zed gets 25 mpg on the freeway, better than my other two daily drivers. Weight and gearing. People always just assume the EFI has superior mileage but from what I have seen/read there isn't much difference. Tuning with a wideband O2 sensor allows you to really dial in a carb to “near” EFI like AFR’s.
I bought a new crate engine for my swap and when looking at a carb'd vs EFI crate motors the cost savings is significant. Probably $1500 bucks even with the cost of the MSD box and a new carb. (The distributor swap is very expensive, don’t go there. The MSD box is super nice and absolutely simple to set up and use.) With a carb I didn’t need to sump the tank on my old car. Where carbs really save money is in tuning. You will need a lap top and a $500 software package to tune the EFI. Either that or throw a few bills at a “tuner” every time you upgrade something on the motor. Carbs go from cam to cam or even motor to motor with just some reusable jets and other small parts.
As for driving, the carb is definitely more hands on. You had better like the smell of gas. But once you get a base tune you don’t have to keep messing with them. Cold weather is a challenge, but not as bad as some guys make out. Carb intakes generally make more HP. Just look at the HP ratings of crate motors that come with either EFI or carb. The carb intake is often good for another 30-40 HP. On the road the carb can be a little temperamental until it warms up. Once in the throttle the response is all good. Set it up right and you won’t know the difference.
As for torque I think you are worrying a bit too much about nothing. LS motors, EFI or otherwise, have more torque than comparable first gens. Roller cams really add a lot in ways that aren’t measured by a simple HP peak.
04-07-2012, 04:00 PM
#28
10 Second Club
After running a 406 SBC roller motor and running side by side down the quarter mile and him with a tune and a cam swap....I'm sold on the LSx motors
I have a steel blocked LQ4 sitting in the garage that will be getting built sometime soon I hope...
With LS3 heads and a cam.... 10's should be no issue.
I have a steel blocked LQ4 sitting in the garage that will be getting built sometime soon I hope...
With LS3 heads and a cam.... 10's should be no issue.
04-07-2012, 06:52 PM
#29
i have had tons of cars, sbc, sbf,etc i dont know every nut and bolt but i can tell you i was so impressed with the ls motors, i put a cam in my ss and i was shocked how much it picked up, and some heads and a good intake and the gains keep coming, there are alot of guys running 10s with a cam and lil spray, you will be very happy with the ls, also there was a thread not to long ago that has diff. carb setups people put together and what there cost was, if i come across it i will post it for ya
04-07-2012, 07:24 PM
#30
The LY6 and its replacement the L96 are standard 6.0s found in current generation HD trucks including some vans. They are great because they use the rectangular port heads found on more expensive 6.2L all aluminum engines in cars and escallades. Also, they don't have dod, so you can slide in a performance cam without pulling the heads and changing the lifters. Finally, the car intakes bolt right on. These motors are a valvetrain upgrade away from 500hp. They come with vvt and keeping it is optional.
04-07-2012, 08:58 PM
#31
Teching In
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is a whole section on this site dedicated to carb'd ls swaps. Lots of good info.
Gas mileage, my Zed gets 25 mpg on the freeway, better than my other two daily drivers. Weight and gearing. People always just assume the EFI has superior mileage but from what I have seen/read there isn't much difference. Tuning with a wideband O2 sensor allows you to really dial in a carb to “near” EFI like AFR’s.
I bought a new crate engine for my swap and when looking at a carb'd vs EFI crate motors the cost savings is significant. Probably $1500 bucks even with the cost of the MSD box and a new carb. (The distributor swap is very expensive, don’t go there. The MSD box is super nice and absolutely simple to set up and use.) With a carb I didn’t need to sump the tank on my old car. Where carbs really save money is in tuning. You will need a lap top and a $500 software package to tune the EFI. Either that or throw a few bills at a “tuner” every time you upgrade something on the motor. Carbs go from cam to cam or even motor to motor with just some reusable jets and other small parts.
As for driving, the carb is definitely more hands on. You had better like the smell of gas. But once you get a base tune you don’t have to keep messing with them. Cold weather is a challenge, but not as bad as some guys make out. Carb intakes generally make more HP. Just look at the HP ratings of crate motors that come with either EFI or carb. The carb intake is often good for another 30-40 HP. On the road the carb can be a little temperamental until it warms up. Once in the throttle the response is all good. Set it up right and you won’t know the difference.
As for torque I think you are worrying a bit too much about nothing. LS motors, EFI or otherwise, have more torque than comparable first gens. Roller cams really add a lot in ways that aren’t measured by a simple HP peak.
Gas mileage, my Zed gets 25 mpg on the freeway, better than my other two daily drivers. Weight and gearing. People always just assume the EFI has superior mileage but from what I have seen/read there isn't much difference. Tuning with a wideband O2 sensor allows you to really dial in a carb to “near” EFI like AFR’s.
I bought a new crate engine for my swap and when looking at a carb'd vs EFI crate motors the cost savings is significant. Probably $1500 bucks even with the cost of the MSD box and a new carb. (The distributor swap is very expensive, don’t go there. The MSD box is super nice and absolutely simple to set up and use.) With a carb I didn’t need to sump the tank on my old car. Where carbs really save money is in tuning. You will need a lap top and a $500 software package to tune the EFI. Either that or throw a few bills at a “tuner” every time you upgrade something on the motor. Carbs go from cam to cam or even motor to motor with just some reusable jets and other small parts.
As for driving, the carb is definitely more hands on. You had better like the smell of gas. But once you get a base tune you don’t have to keep messing with them. Cold weather is a challenge, but not as bad as some guys make out. Carb intakes generally make more HP. Just look at the HP ratings of crate motors that come with either EFI or carb. The carb intake is often good for another 30-40 HP. On the road the carb can be a little temperamental until it warms up. Once in the throttle the response is all good. Set it up right and you won’t know the difference.
As for torque I think you are worrying a bit too much about nothing. LS motors, EFI or otherwise, have more torque than comparable first gens. Roller cams really add a lot in ways that aren’t measured by a simple HP peak.
what is a Zed?
Do all LS motors need o2 sensors?
04-07-2012, 10:10 PM
#33
On The Tree
If you want to run the 400 SBC, you can easily do it. But it's more a choice in style for the over-all build. You want to build a motor for an older truck anyway, a 400 would fit the build nicely. Just like an old flat head V-8 is perfect for an old Model T.
But just like that truck you want to build, that old Model T would be much more fun to drive with a modern LS motor between the fenders. And unlike the flat head, you can build either for about the same money.
And here's a thought..... how about both? Keep that 400, and go to EFI Connection and get an LS style fuel injection system to run it.
04-08-2012, 11:18 AM
#35
Teching In
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Paso Robles, CA
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just finished my ls1 t56 swap in my 69 Camaro. I had a crate motor 350 with a torque cam. There is no comparison between the two. The LS revs cleaner and higher with no flat spots. Efi is great just start it and go no raw gas fumes either. Also lighter than the old iron block. With Ported ls6 heads and a high 220's cam with intake, mass air and throttle body I should be in the 420 rwhp range. At 67000 miles my ls1 looked like new, bearings were good and very minimal leak down. Just wanted to throw in my 2 cents.
04-08-2012, 09:24 PM
#37
I had a mild 413sbc in my 69 camaro. Ran 12.6@108. On dot slicks. Put a mild crammed 5.3 w milled z06 heads and ran 13.2@109 on street tires w a tight 2400 converter. Gets 22 mpg w carb too. Runs a lot smoother don't leak anything. Yea I should of done a 6.0 but any ls is the way to. I'll never do another sbc
