Opinions needed: Turbo or Procharged for my setup.
02-24-2010, 09:45 PM
#1
Opinions needed: Turbo or Procharged for my setup. I've been throwing this idea around for a little while now. I have an APS kit setup now on my TA. My specs are an HKE built 408 with 8.5:1 comp, full suspension, very expensive fuel system to handle the power, and a standard APS kit. I am making good power now (710rwhp on a mustang dyno at 10psi and 91oct). I have an option lined up to run a diff. kit with twin 72mm turbos. I am sort of leaning towards that. But I also have never been procharged and a friend of mine brought that up to me. So I am right now in the crossroads of what to do.
So, here is my question. Should I get the bigger and better turbo kit with the twin 72's or should I get an F2 procharger kit and try something different?
So, here is my question. Should I get the bigger and better turbo kit with the twin 72's or should I get an F2 procharger kit and try something different?
Last edited by corpserodeo666; 02-24-2010 at 09:46 PM. Reason: Spelling
02-24-2010, 10:04 PM
#3
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I like my procharger but have never been turbo. With a centrifugal setup once you go so small on the pulley you have to worry about belt slip. Also, a centri kit needs rpm to make boost like a turbo, so no advantage there. It seems like it would be easier and cheaper for you to stay turbo. Prochargers also make a good bit of noise at idle especially an F2. I like this, but some do not, might be something to consider. I understand wanting to try something new.
02-24-2010, 10:09 PM
#4
I like my procharger but have never been turbo. With a centrifugal setup once you go so small on the pulley you have to worry about belt slip. Also, a centri kit needs rpm to make boost like a turbo, so no advantage there. It seems like it would be easier and cheaper for you to stay turbo. Prochargers also make a good bit of noise at idle especially an F2. I like this, but some do not, might be something to consider. I understand wanting to try something new.
02-24-2010, 10:32 PM
#6
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Turbo Pro's:
1. An additional 5% of parasitic losses with a supercharger
2. No belt slippage with a Turbo
3. No added pressure on the crankshaft snout with a Turbocharger
4. No belt replacement with a Turbocharger
5. When running street versus strip I just hit a button on my electronic boost controller to lower HP and let the bitch hook properly
6. Car runs much quieter on the street with the Turbos acting as mufflers
7. Blowoff valve sounds cool
Pros for Supercharger:
1. Underhood temps are better
2. Cheaper less complex
3. No lag
4. Whine sounds cool
5. Predictable more linear torque curve
6. ???
1. An additional 5% of parasitic losses with a supercharger
2. No belt slippage with a Turbo
3. No added pressure on the crankshaft snout with a Turbocharger
4. No belt replacement with a Turbocharger
5. When running street versus strip I just hit a button on my electronic boost controller to lower HP and let the bitch hook properly
6. Car runs much quieter on the street with the Turbos acting as mufflers
7. Blowoff valve sounds cool
Pros for Supercharger:
1. Underhood temps are better
2. Cheaper less complex
3. No lag
4. Whine sounds cool
5. Predictable more linear torque curve
6. ???
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02-25-2010, 08:46 AM
#9
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1. Underhood temps are better
the 2 procharged f-bodies here in town demodded in 2 weeks due to overheating issues... A turbo blanket on a turbo makes it cool enough to rest your hand on after a 1/4 mile run.
2. Cheaper less complex
BOV, bypass valve, oiling system, charge pipes, intercooler... I dont see the "complexity" difference here..
3. No lag
A matter of opinion... brake boosting gets you 2x+ more power at low rpm than a CSC.... a CSC doesnt have the option of making that power down low. Could be fixed by a giant blower, and a bypass valve/wastegate.
4. Whine sounds cool
and a turbo doesnt?
5. Predictable more linear torque curve
better for street tires, yes.
Additional turbo pro's.
price... most likely 1/2 to 1/4 as much as a comparable CSC setup.
As mentioned before.. there is basically no maintenance to a turbo setup.
02-25-2010, 09:36 AM
#10
Well since you already have the aps kit seems to me just upgrade turbos they are pretty much plug and play although you have to drop kmember.
You have a few choices.The LG which are pricey but you should be able to get 1000rwhp and I would not be putting much more than that thru anything other than an LSX block
no matter what your fuel system can support.
Kwickar is turning good numbers with his upgraded turbos but not sure like the fact think he said you cant' run airfilters.
Big Bird is think ordering some billet turbos or something?
Peter at Aps said something about having some gt35 whlie back in stock but of course not many of us would trust Peter..they would be gt35 knock offs likely.
And if you want to replace the standard aps with something a bit better Kando dynamics sells replacement plug and play centers that are being run curently by at least two board members LOWBIRD and KNIGHTMARELS1.
While the Kando likely won't do much more than 800rwhp still thats not bad and you can add some small shots of spray to get you a bit more.
I have been in several procharged cars, lt1 and ls1 and to tell the truth they were ok but like my tt better. And you already have the tt. Sure some bugs with the aps kit but nothing that hard to fix up. Sway bar hits ,run no sway or use spacers. inlet pipes close up ,stent them or get the upgraded tubes.Cooling issues well not sure on that one yet trying out few things on my car only had one near overheat so far in 6000 miles.
adding new ron davis rad,high flow water pump for starters see how that works out.
I would stick with what you got and just upgrade the turbos. I don't trust my aps standard turbos although did get 6000 miles out of them.Hugger got like 25,000 miles out of his.maybe they only started to use knock offs later on who knows.
You have a few choices.The LG which are pricey but you should be able to get 1000rwhp and I would not be putting much more than that thru anything other than an LSX block
no matter what your fuel system can support.
Kwickar is turning good numbers with his upgraded turbos but not sure like the fact think he said you cant' run airfilters.
Big Bird is think ordering some billet turbos or something?
Peter at Aps said something about having some gt35 whlie back in stock but of course not many of us would trust Peter..they would be gt35 knock offs likely.
And if you want to replace the standard aps with something a bit better Kando dynamics sells replacement plug and play centers that are being run curently by at least two board members LOWBIRD and KNIGHTMARELS1.
While the Kando likely won't do much more than 800rwhp still thats not bad and you can add some small shots of spray to get you a bit more.
I have been in several procharged cars, lt1 and ls1 and to tell the truth they were ok but like my tt better. And you already have the tt. Sure some bugs with the aps kit but nothing that hard to fix up. Sway bar hits ,run no sway or use spacers. inlet pipes close up ,stent them or get the upgraded tubes.Cooling issues well not sure on that one yet trying out few things on my car only had one near overheat so far in 6000 miles.
adding new ron davis rad,high flow water pump for starters see how that works out.
I would stick with what you got and just upgrade the turbos. I don't trust my aps standard turbos although did get 6000 miles out of them.Hugger got like 25,000 miles out of his.maybe they only started to use knock offs later on who knows.
02-25-2010, 10:51 AM
#11
Well since you already have the aps kit seems to me just upgrade turbos they are pretty much plug and play although you have to drop kmember.
You have a few choices.The LG which are pricey but you should be able to get 1000rwhp and I would not be putting much more than that thru anything other than an LSX block
no matter what your fuel system can support.
Kwickar is turning good numbers with his upgraded turbos but not sure like the fact think he said you cant' run airfilters.
Big Bird is think ordering some billet turbos or something?
Peter at Aps said something about having some gt35 whlie back in stock but of course not many of us would trust Peter..they would be gt35 knock offs likely.
And if you want to replace the standard aps with something a bit better Kando dynamics sells replacement plug and play centers that are being run curently by at least two board members LOWBIRD and KNIGHTMARELS1.
While the Kando likely won't do much more than 800rwhp still thats not bad and you can add some small shots of spray to get you a bit more.
I have been in several procharged cars, lt1 and ls1 and to tell the truth they were ok but like my tt better. And you already have the tt. Sure some bugs with the aps kit but nothing that hard to fix up. Sway bar hits ,run no sway or use spacers. inlet pipes close up ,stent them or get the upgraded tubes.Cooling issues well not sure on that one yet trying out few things on my car only had one near overheat so far in 6000 miles.
adding new ron davis rad,high flow water pump for starters see how that works out.
I would stick with what you got and just upgrade the turbos. I don't trust my aps standard turbos although did get 6000 miles out of them.Hugger got like 25,000 miles out of his.maybe they only started to use knock offs later on who knows.
You have a few choices.The LG which are pricey but you should be able to get 1000rwhp and I would not be putting much more than that thru anything other than an LSX block
no matter what your fuel system can support.
Kwickar is turning good numbers with his upgraded turbos but not sure like the fact think he said you cant' run airfilters.
Big Bird is think ordering some billet turbos or something?
Peter at Aps said something about having some gt35 whlie back in stock but of course not many of us would trust Peter..they would be gt35 knock offs likely.
And if you want to replace the standard aps with something a bit better Kando dynamics sells replacement plug and play centers that are being run curently by at least two board members LOWBIRD and KNIGHTMARELS1.
While the Kando likely won't do much more than 800rwhp still thats not bad and you can add some small shots of spray to get you a bit more.
I have been in several procharged cars, lt1 and ls1 and to tell the truth they were ok but like my tt better. And you already have the tt. Sure some bugs with the aps kit but nothing that hard to fix up. Sway bar hits ,run no sway or use spacers. inlet pipes close up ,stent them or get the upgraded tubes.Cooling issues well not sure on that one yet trying out few things on my car only had one near overheat so far in 6000 miles.
adding new ron davis rad,high flow water pump for starters see how that works out.
I would stick with what you got and just upgrade the turbos. I don't trust my aps standard turbos although did get 6000 miles out of them.Hugger got like 25,000 miles out of his.maybe they only started to use knock offs later on who knows.
02-25-2010, 11:00 AM
#12
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Pros for Supercharger:
1. Underhood temps are better
the 2 procharged f-bodies here in town demodded in 2 weeks due to overheating issues... A turbo blanket on a turbo makes it cool enough to rest your hand on after a 1/4 mile run.
2. Cheaper less complex
BOV, bypass valve, oiling system, charge pipes, intercooler... I dont see the "complexity" difference here..
3. No lag
A matter of opinion... brake boosting gets you 2x+ more power at low rpm than a CSC.... a CSC doesnt have the option of making that power down low. Could be fixed by a giant blower, and a bypass valve/wastegate.
4. Whine sounds cool
and a turbo doesnt?
5. Predictable more linear torque curve
better for street tires, yes.
Additional turbo pro's.
price... most likely 1/2 to 1/4 as much as a comparable CSC setup.
As mentioned before.. there is basically no maintenance to a turbo setup.
1. Underhood temps are better
the 2 procharged f-bodies here in town demodded in 2 weeks due to overheating issues... A turbo blanket on a turbo makes it cool enough to rest your hand on after a 1/4 mile run.
2. Cheaper less complex
BOV, bypass valve, oiling system, charge pipes, intercooler... I dont see the "complexity" difference here..
3. No lag
A matter of opinion... brake boosting gets you 2x+ more power at low rpm than a CSC.... a CSC doesnt have the option of making that power down low. Could be fixed by a giant blower, and a bypass valve/wastegate.
4. Whine sounds cool
and a turbo doesnt?
5. Predictable more linear torque curve
better for street tires, yes.
Additional turbo pro's.
price... most likely 1/2 to 1/4 as much as a comparable CSC setup.
As mentioned before.. there is basically no maintenance to a turbo setup.
2. Supercharger Less complex....take a look at my pictures and compare that to a centrifigal or a roots type. MUCH simpler for a supercharger.
3. Supercharger no lag: If we're talking about a drag car then I agree. I can elliminate all traces of lag by using a 2-step, footbrake, transbrake on a Turbo car. Non issue for that. If you're not doing any of this above then your stuck waiting for the turbos to spool. My car doesn't take long to spool seeing as I'm twin turbo. But there is some lag.
4. Supercharger whine sounds cool: I love the Turbocharger sound and the blow off valve sound. However cruising past someone in my car without getting on it or slamming the throttle blade shut after loading up the turbos means my car is dead quiet. No sound at all. So no sound compared to the SC sound I'd say the SC sounds cool.
5. Predictable torque curve: I love road racing as well as drag racing. The turbo's always give me lag then WHAM lots of boost with full torque. Coming out of a braking turn and hitting boost means I'm peddaling and trying to keep her aimed correctly. So I would say on street tires and road racing tires as well.
I'm still biased towards Turbocharging all the way. But on a roadrace car I may choose SC since I don't need an all out power adder but instead just need some more controlled linear power at the sacrifice of straight line performance.
02-25-2010, 12:36 PM
#13
I love my F1A and i would recommend it if you were just starting out. its probably going to cost you between 6-8k to get into a procharger and as stated above we do have to deal with belt slip. I went to the SDCE setup which totally eliminated that issue but that was another 6 or 700 dollars. i can tell you that I have had 0 issues related to my setup since i got the SDCE though. it might be harder for you to reach your 1xxx power goals with the supercharger too. Maybe give BOB a call at EPP and ask for his advise. he sees all of these setups on a dayly basis and im sure he could steer you in the right direction
02-25-2010, 02:24 PM
#14
I'm going with Procharger due to the simplicity of the install and setup, and the fact that I'm a FI newb. Plus, parts and upgrades are readily available. I bought a used kit, and I think my total amount spent (including gauges, pod, wideband, injectors, fuel pump, base tune, etc....COMPLETE kit) is going to be right at 4k. So it's very cost effective as well.
I love the turbo setup, I just don't have the tools and fabrication equipment/know-how to efficiently do one.
I love the turbo setup, I just don't have the tools and fabrication equipment/know-how to efficiently do one.
02-25-2010, 03:48 PM
#15
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Q, youre such a *****. LOL Ive never even worked on an FI car aside from WRXs and I went head long into my fbody with it. Im up to about 6k including tools and tuning. Its running but I need some more tuning and smaller things done for it to be perfect. I couldve done the setup for alot less, probably closed to 4k. I also upgraded oil pump, timing chain, heads, pushrods, valvesprings, intake manifold, TB and some other ****. Also with a turbo, youre doing away with tons of parts so you can sell them and recover the cost ie manifolds, exhaust, fans. etc. Ive made back about 1k or so just in parts that I didnt need anymore.
Due to my lack of knowledge, Ive spent hundreds of hours researching even the most basic ideas like how a turbo works all the way up to bernoulli's principle. Its been a fun ride!
Due to my lack of knowledge, Ive spent hundreds of hours researching even the most basic ideas like how a turbo works all the way up to bernoulli's principle. Its been a fun ride!
02-25-2010, 03:57 PM
#16
Q, youre such a *****. LOL Ive never even worked on an FI car aside from WRXs and I went head long into my fbody with it. Im up to about 6k including tools and tuning. Its running but I need some more tuning and smaller things done for it to be perfect. I couldve done the setup for alot less, probably closed to 4k. I also upgraded oil pump, timing chain, heads, pushrods, valvesprings, intake manifold, TB and some other ****. Also with a turbo, youre doing away with tons of parts so you can sell them and recover the cost ie manifolds, exhaust, fans. etc. Ive made back about 1k or so just in parts that I didnt need anymore.
Due to my lack of knowledge, Ive spent hundreds of hours researching even the most basic ideas like how a turbo works all the way up to bernoulli's principle. Its been a fun ride!
Due to my lack of knowledge, Ive spent hundreds of hours researching even the most basic ideas like how a turbo works all the way up to bernoulli's principle. Its been a fun ride!
Exhibit #1 to the difficulty of a turbo install, namely an Ebay kit....Witness XtremeDime's trials and tribulations in this thread...
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...-ebay-kit.html
Looks like fun, but I'll pass.
02-25-2010, 10:09 PM
#18
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I know that, I was saying that torque and power on a centri is not immediate like on a positive displacement s/c. I know my post seems to state that boost comes on the same as a turbo but that is not what I was saying. I was pointing out the fact that a centri will not get him into powerband any sooner than a turbo. So there is no advantage to switching to a procharger.
