What injectors for 1,000 RWHP?
10-31-2014, 12:56 PM
#21
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we tune cars all the time that want to switch from gas to e85...
get them on the dyno... do a couple pulls for a baseline...
drain the tank, put in e85....
with no changes in the tune, they lose power every time....
then we start throwing timing at it and it gains back the power....and I have never seen one gain more than 20 HP over gas...typically its closer to 10 hp over gas...
were not in the business of selling lies...we sell reality...and customers come to us because we tell tell the truth...we dont have to have high dyno #'s to win races and we dont have to show high dyno numbers to sell a product..
with 726 rwhp... your car should be in the low low 9's or high 8's all day long at the track(we have many customer making 750 RWHP, and they run mid 8's at the track pretty easy assuming their suspension is up to the task)
lets take another dose of reality...
that LS1 engine makes 325hp to the crank stock(they didnt rate them at the wheels)... you add heads/cam/bolt ons, you are gonna get to 400-425 at the crank....(I'm gonna give you the benefit of a doubt and say you make 450 at the crank with full bolt ons, heads, cam, blah , blah ,blah
now..lets talk boost...boost is a reference of restriction not of airflow...
so lets say theoretically your engine can actually swallow 2x the air... to make double the horsepower...14.5 psi would be double atmostpheric pressure(14.503 to be more specific)....
8psi is barely over half of that...
so realistically the most you can make at the crank is 900 on 14.5 PSI
so lets say you pick up 300 from 8psi to be generous...
even then you are at 750 CRANK HP
and then take away 20-30% for driveline losses.... (we used to have an engine dyno....and we used to dyno about 3 engines a week on it.)
and in the real world... the paper math is ALWAYS higher than what you actually have...paper math is for internet racers who like high numbers
get them on the dyno... do a couple pulls for a baseline...
drain the tank, put in e85....
with no changes in the tune, they lose power every time....
then we start throwing timing at it and it gains back the power....and I have never seen one gain more than 20 HP over gas...typically its closer to 10 hp over gas...
were not in the business of selling lies...we sell reality...and customers come to us because we tell tell the truth...we dont have to have high dyno #'s to win races and we dont have to show high dyno numbers to sell a product..
with 726 rwhp... your car should be in the low low 9's or high 8's all day long at the track(we have many customer making 750 RWHP, and they run mid 8's at the track pretty easy assuming their suspension is up to the task)
lets take another dose of reality...
that LS1 engine makes 325hp to the crank stock(they didnt rate them at the wheels)... you add heads/cam/bolt ons, you are gonna get to 400-425 at the crank....(I'm gonna give you the benefit of a doubt and say you make 450 at the crank with full bolt ons, heads, cam, blah , blah ,blah
now..lets talk boost...boost is a reference of restriction not of airflow...
so lets say theoretically your engine can actually swallow 2x the air... to make double the horsepower...14.5 psi would be double atmostpheric pressure(14.503 to be more specific)....
8psi is barely over half of that...
so realistically the most you can make at the crank is 900 on 14.5 PSI
so lets say you pick up 300 from 8psi to be generous...
even then you are at 750 CRANK HP
and then take away 20-30% for driveline losses.... (we used to have an engine dyno....and we used to dyno about 3 engines a week on it.)
and in the real world... the paper math is ALWAYS higher than what you actually have...paper math is for internet racers who like high numbers
Also by your logic that drivetrain loss is a given percentage no matter what the hp level, my car makes 450 crank hp with just bolt-ons. There are plenty of heads cam LS1's making close to 500 RWHP, so they must make over 600 crank hp. None of these numbers fit...
10-31-2014, 01:06 PM
#22
So by your logic, a bone stock LS1 car should make 260 hp to the wheels... And it's almost laughable that you think, with all of your knowledge (I've read a lot of your posts, you know some ****), that with the great heads and cams available today that a stock LS1 would only gain 125hp (crank) from heads cam and full boltons. Hell, a stock LS6 makes 405...
Also by your logic that drivetrain loss is a given percentage no matter what the hp level, my car makes 450 crank hp with just bolt-ons. There are plenty of heads cam LS1's making close to 500 RWHP, so they must make over 600 crank hp. None of these numbers fit...
Also by your logic that drivetrain loss is a given percentage no matter what the hp level, my car makes 450 crank hp with just bolt-ons. There are plenty of heads cam LS1's making close to 500 RWHP, so they must make over 600 crank hp. None of these numbers fit...
10-31-2014, 01:12 PM
#23
Let's not forget the question asked.. I still would personally go with id1300cc if your using meth and 93 and want close to 1000wheel, unless you want room to grow,then I'd go bigger
10-31-2014, 04:47 PM
#24
So by your logic, a bone stock LS1 car should make 260 hp to the wheels... And it's almost laughable that you think, with all of your knowledge (I've read a lot of your posts, you know some ****), that with the great heads and cams available today that a stock LS1 would only gain 125hp (crank) from heads cam and full boltons. Hell, a stock LS6 makes 405...
Also by your logic that drivetrain loss is a given percentage no matter what the hp level, my car makes 450 crank hp with just bolt-ons. There are plenty of heads cam LS1's making close to 500 RWHP, so they must make over 600 crank hp. None of these numbers fit...
Also by your logic that drivetrain loss is a given percentage no matter what the hp level, my car makes 450 crank hp with just bolt-ons. There are plenty of heads cam LS1's making close to 500 RWHP, so they must make over 600 crank hp. None of these numbers fit...
actually yes...
bone stock Ls1 98-02 camaro... will make 250~280 to the wheels on an accurate dyno...
the 13 second timeslip that most people get with stock everything confirms that is a valid HP Number to the wheels.
and the LS6 was an intake change....made 10 extra horsepower at the crank and only because it carried the power higher in the RPM.....
the bigger problem is there are a lot of dynos that read high...
they get it installed and dont have regular maintainence and calibration done.
I know many dynos that are 10+ years old and have never had the manufacturer come back out and recalibrate the dyno...
450 HP to the wheels you should be in the 10's... if you arent... you were given a high reading dyno
650 to the tire should get you mid to high 9's
750 to the tire should get you low 9's to high 8's
850 to the tire will get you low 8's and even high 7's
if you arent running those times...you arent making that kind of power...
horsepower is just math calculation of the amount of work done over time...or the amount of weight you move over a certain distance over time
I also never said its a fixed number...
the more power you make the more frictional losses you will get....
we just did a car that the motor makes 1400 ish at the crank...he made 1008 to the tire...
and it took a 509ci motor and 24 psi with twin 88's to get there...
and this is with really top notch parts...there was nothing cheap about the motor on this setup
the car runs low 7's....
if you can get there on less... you must be using unicorn **** and fairy dust somewhere in there
10-31-2014, 05:05 PM
#25
actually yes...
bone stock Ls1 98-02 camaro... will make 250~280 to the wheels on an accurate dyno...
the 13 second timeslip that most people get with stock everything confirms that is a valid HP Number to the wheels.
and the LS6 was an intake change....made 10 extra horsepower at the crank and only because it carried the power higher in the RPM.....
the bigger problem is there are a lot of dynos that read high...
they get it installed and dont have regular maintainence and calibration done.
I know many dynos that are 10+ years old and have never had the manufacturer come back out and recalibrate the dyno...
450 HP to the wheels you should be in the 10's... if you arent... you were given a high reading dyno
650 to the tire should get you mid to high 9's
750 to the tire should get you low 9's to high 8's
850 to the tire will get you low 8's and even high 7's
if you arent running those times...you arent making that kind of power...
horsepower is just math calculation of the amount of work done over time...or the amount of weight you move over a certain distance over time
I also never said its a fixed number...
the more power you make the more frictional losses you will get....
we just did a car that the motor makes 1400 ish at the crank...he made 1008 to the tire...
and it took a 509ci motor and 24 psi with twin 88's to get there...
and this is with really top notch parts...there was nothing cheap about the motor on this setup
the car runs low 7's....
if you can get there on less... you must be using unicorn **** and fairy dust somewhere in there
bone stock Ls1 98-02 camaro... will make 250~280 to the wheels on an accurate dyno...
the 13 second timeslip that most people get with stock everything confirms that is a valid HP Number to the wheels.
and the LS6 was an intake change....made 10 extra horsepower at the crank and only because it carried the power higher in the RPM.....
the bigger problem is there are a lot of dynos that read high...
they get it installed and dont have regular maintainence and calibration done.
I know many dynos that are 10+ years old and have never had the manufacturer come back out and recalibrate the dyno...
450 HP to the wheels you should be in the 10's... if you arent... you were given a high reading dyno
650 to the tire should get you mid to high 9's
750 to the tire should get you low 9's to high 8's
850 to the tire will get you low 8's and even high 7's
if you arent running those times...you arent making that kind of power...
horsepower is just math calculation of the amount of work done over time...or the amount of weight you move over a certain distance over time
I also never said its a fixed number...
the more power you make the more frictional losses you will get....
we just did a car that the motor makes 1400 ish at the crank...he made 1008 to the tire...
and it took a 509ci motor and 24 psi with twin 88's to get there...
and this is with really top notch parts...there was nothing cheap about the motor on this setup
the car runs low 7's....
if you can get there on less... you must be using unicorn **** and fairy dust somewhere in there
Again catagorizing everybody's car into one. Not even mentioning weight auto or stick. Etc.
Saying x amount of hp will get you in this bracket is again you guestimating and summing it up. Well it's not anywhere near that simple.
If your math is true than a 750 hp (4k lbs) will go the same in a 1/4 mile as a 3k lbs would? Every combo and setup. You ain't taking anything into consideration other than your napkin math..or Your just speaking out of generality based off what you have done.. well guess what you ain't the only one building cars and you dang sure ain't the best or have most experience/knowledge (clearly)
10-31-2014, 05:22 PM
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Some people dynoed close to 300rwhp in there stock ls1 fbody. GM is know to underrate their performance cars. Plus my car dynoed 335rwhp and 350rwtrq with lts (pacesetter headers), lid, ported 241s.
10-31-2014, 05:35 PM
#28
No way possible, every single ls1 car on the road puts down exactly 258.9 hp. And runs exactly 14.175 in the 1/4 mile
Just kidding ,I've been tryin to say the same thing but his napkin math is dead on and applies to every single car lol
10-31-2014, 06:06 PM
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actually yes...
bone stock Ls1 98-02 camaro... will make 250~280 to the wheels on an accurate dyno...
the 13 second timeslip that most people get with stock everything confirms that is a valid HP Number to the wheels.
and the LS6 was an intake change....made 10 extra horsepower at the crank and only because it carried the power higher in the RPM.....
the bigger problem is there are a lot of dynos that read high...
they get it installed and dont have regular maintainence and calibration done.
I know many dynos that are 10+ years old and have never had the manufacturer come back out and recalibrate the dyno...
450 HP to the wheels you should be in the 10's... if you arent... you were given a high reading dyno
650 to the tire should get you mid to high 9's
750 to the tire should get you low 9's to high 8's
850 to the tire will get you low 8's and even high 7's
if you arent running those times...you arent making that kind of power...
horsepower is just math calculation of the amount of work done over time...or the amount of weight you move over a certain distance over time
I also never said its a fixed number...
the more power you make the more frictional losses you will get....
we just did a car that the motor makes 1400 ish at the crank...he made 1008 to the tire...
and it took a 509ci motor and 24 psi with twin 88's to get there...
and this is with really top notch parts...there was nothing cheap about the motor on this setup
the car runs low 7's....
if you can get there on less... you must be using unicorn **** and fairy dust somewhere in there
bone stock Ls1 98-02 camaro... will make 250~280 to the wheels on an accurate dyno...
the 13 second timeslip that most people get with stock everything confirms that is a valid HP Number to the wheels.
and the LS6 was an intake change....made 10 extra horsepower at the crank and only because it carried the power higher in the RPM.....
the bigger problem is there are a lot of dynos that read high...
they get it installed and dont have regular maintainence and calibration done.
I know many dynos that are 10+ years old and have never had the manufacturer come back out and recalibrate the dyno...
450 HP to the wheels you should be in the 10's... if you arent... you were given a high reading dyno
650 to the tire should get you mid to high 9's
750 to the tire should get you low 9's to high 8's
850 to the tire will get you low 8's and even high 7's
if you arent running those times...you arent making that kind of power...
horsepower is just math calculation of the amount of work done over time...or the amount of weight you move over a certain distance over time
I also never said its a fixed number...
the more power you make the more frictional losses you will get....
we just did a car that the motor makes 1400 ish at the crank...he made 1008 to the tire...
and it took a 509ci motor and 24 psi with twin 88's to get there...
and this is with really top notch parts...there was nothing cheap about the motor on this setup
the car runs low 7's....
if you can get there on less... you must be using unicorn **** and fairy dust somewhere in there
First, I didn't say anything about an LS6 intake. I referenced the LS6 engine as a whole to back my point about an LS1 being capable of much more than 450bhp with a good H/C/full bolt-on setup (because the LS6 H/C/I is VERY mild compared to some newer aftermarket setups)
Second, I never said my car made 450whp, I said by your math my car should make 450bhp (I make a little over 360whp, confirmed by 2 different dynos) So how does my 450 CRANK HP bolt-on LS1 fit into your math?
I also never said you thought it was a fixed number, I said fixed percentage (which is what you said, 20-30%) Which may be true. I don't have any real world experience to argue the point, but it doesn't make a lot a sense to me. Lets say you have a 450 hp engine and it takes 90-135hp of that to turn your drivetrain (by your math). Up that engine to 1000bhp, why would that very same drivetrain now take 200-300hp to turn? That's an honest question, I'm trying to understand this.
10-31-2014, 11:39 PM
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11-01-2014, 08:58 AM
#33
^^^^ thank you, thats lot more accurate than 30-40% lol. It's pretty funny he thinks you can only make 700 crank so about 500 wheel on injector dynamic 1000s
I'm sure there are guys making 500 wheel on alto smaller than 1000s
I'm sure there are guys making 500 wheel on alto smaller than 1000s
11-01-2014, 09:19 AM
#34
Every single E85 car I've tuned has used ~30% more fuel back to back, that being said I'm making ~750 rwhp on 1000cc injectors at 60 psi base pressure at 95% duty cycle and am having no problems.
Also just as an example on all of the BOLT ON flex fuel CTS-Vs and ZR-1s, they routinely pick up 50-60 rwhp EASILY with just more timing added with E85 in the tank vs pump gas. When highly modified that goes up easily, even at the same boost level.
Here is my own personal testing back to back from pump to E85 naturally aspirated way back in 2008.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/fueling-i...sting-e85.html
Also just as an example on all of the BOLT ON flex fuel CTS-Vs and ZR-1s, they routinely pick up 50-60 rwhp EASILY with just more timing added with E85 in the tank vs pump gas. When highly modified that goes up easily, even at the same boost level.
Here is my own personal testing back to back from pump to E85 naturally aspirated way back in 2008.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/fueling-i...sting-e85.html
11-01-2014, 10:40 AM
#35
Every single E85 car I've tuned has used ~30% more fuel back to back, that being said I'm making ~750 rwhp on 1000cc injectors at 60 psi base pressure at 95% duty cycle and am having no problems.
Also just as an example on all of the BOLT ON flex fuel CTS-Vs and ZR-1s, they routinely pick up 50-60 rwhp EASILY with just more timing added with E85 in the tank vs pump gas. When highly modified that goes up easily, even at the same boost level.
Here is my own personal testing back to back from pump to E85 naturally aspirated way back in 2008.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/fueling-i...sting-e85.html
Also just as an example on all of the BOLT ON flex fuel CTS-Vs and ZR-1s, they routinely pick up 50-60 rwhp EASILY with just more timing added with E85 in the tank vs pump gas. When highly modified that goes up easily, even at the same boost level.
Here is my own personal testing back to back from pump to E85 naturally aspirated way back in 2008.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/fueling-i...sting-e85.html
So just to clarify, your putting down 750 on 1000 injectors?
11-01-2014, 11:35 AM
#37
I've always thought you use approx 20% more fuel. But I'm not a tuner just goin off my own use and others around me. Some setups could use more I'm no expert tuner, but I do know what my injectors maxed out at
11-01-2014, 02:00 PM
#38
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Talking to the wise, hopefully. I'm going to say it again, general course of action is to go and get a larger fuel injector when running out of injector cycle, "NO THIS IS WRONG" get a larger fuel mass to injector first, "increase fuel pump" keep stable fuel delivery and pressure.
Only then will you really know how much more fuel you really add to use e85.
Instead of adding milliseconds to injectors till you ran out of duty cycle to then go get a larger injector.
Ones at the dino my body asked me what injectors I was using to make 940 Wtq @ 80% duty cycle on the dino on pump gas, I told him I was using 60 lbs. hr injectors, he asked how come he was running out of injector duty cycle at 650 whp using exact same injector.
My answer to him was dual Weldom 260 fuel pumps, -the aircraft equivalent to dual Walbro 260s-
For 1k whp I would recommend a 260 pump of some kind for all around driving and a 360 lbs. hr. second on demand pump to come in at 4psi or somewhere near wide open throttle using a micro switch.
If on e85 use 1000 cc fuel injectors, done.
Only then will you really know how much more fuel you really add to use e85.
Instead of adding milliseconds to injectors till you ran out of duty cycle to then go get a larger injector.
Ones at the dino my body asked me what injectors I was using to make 940 Wtq @ 80% duty cycle on the dino on pump gas, I told him I was using 60 lbs. hr injectors, he asked how come he was running out of injector duty cycle at 650 whp using exact same injector.
My answer to him was dual Weldom 260 fuel pumps, -the aircraft equivalent to dual Walbro 260s-
For 1k whp I would recommend a 260 pump of some kind for all around driving and a 360 lbs. hr. second on demand pump to come in at 4psi or somewhere near wide open throttle using a micro switch.
If on e85 use 1000 cc fuel injectors, done.
11-01-2014, 02:22 PM
#39
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As long as your fuel pressure isn't dropping then can can easily compare flow difference between pump and E85 by looking at injector duty cycle. If you go wot and your pressure stays constant the whole time then the pump is doing its job.
11-01-2014, 05:08 PM
#40
I'm going to say it again, general course of action is to go and get a larger fuel injector when running out of injector cycle, "NO THIS IS WRONG" get a larger fuel mass to injector first, "increase fuel pump" keep stable fuel delivery and pressure.
Only then will you really know how much more fuel you really add to use e85.
Instead of adding milliseconds to injectors till you ran out of duty cycle to then go get a larger injector.
Ones at the dino my body asked me what injectors I was using to make 940 Wtq @ 80% duty cycle on the dino on pump gas, I told him I was using 60 lbs. hr injectors, he asked how come he was running out of injector duty cycle at 650 whp using exact same injector.
My answer to him was dual Weldom 260 fuel pumps, -the aircraft equivalent to dual Walbro 260s-
For 1k whp I would recommend a 260 pump of some kind for all around driving and a 360 lbs. hr. second on demand pump to come in at 4psi or somewhere near wide open throttle using a micro switch.
If on e85 use 1000 cc fuel injectors, done.
Only then will you really know how much more fuel you really add to use e85.
Instead of adding milliseconds to injectors till you ran out of duty cycle to then go get a larger injector.
Ones at the dino my body asked me what injectors I was using to make 940 Wtq @ 80% duty cycle on the dino on pump gas, I told him I was using 60 lbs. hr injectors, he asked how come he was running out of injector duty cycle at 650 whp using exact same injector.
My answer to him was dual Weldom 260 fuel pumps, -the aircraft equivalent to dual Walbro 260s-
For 1k whp I would recommend a 260 pump of some kind for all around driving and a 360 lbs. hr. second on demand pump to come in at 4psi or somewhere near wide open throttle using a micro switch.
If on e85 use 1000 cc fuel injectors, done.