UltraZLS1

iTrader: (13)

Fe4 suspension in 2012.

Would it beat a new gt pp? I'm not sure. According to a guy who races both on both websites and is truly unbiased his 2012 SS was better than his 2013 gt but that's not as good as a 15.
I wouldn't be surprised if it were close.
The mustang guys think the standard SS will lose to a standard mustang gt... Which blows my mind.

As for the gt350.... It can't even stay above 6200 rpm for more than 8 seconds before the computer backs you down. I find this absolutely ridiculous...8 seconds? Really? You can't even make a 1/4 mile run. It can't be that simple.... Input anyone?

http://www.camaro6.com/forums/showth...408973&page=16

UltraZLS1

iTrader: (13)

They have been quoted saying months ago the standard SS is beating the 1le already. Betting it's with the MRC option but still impressive considering the tire advantage the 1le has.

NW-99SS

iTrader: (6)

On this point, I'm happy to be proven wrong Good info!

It'llrun

I was thinking we'd already covered the 3.. I think it was 3 changes. Regardless, show me or anyone else on earth where a test was done and the 2012 or any ensuing standard SS actually won in handling.

The 2012 got:
Retuned front and rear dampers
New solid front (23 mm) and rear (24 mm) stabilizer bars
Twenty-inch aluminum wheels and P245/45R20 front/P275/40R20 rear tires (SS)


Read more: http://gmauthority.com/blog/2011/04/...#ixzz3ijCgibZA

That was the "changes" in a nutshell. More went into it, but that was the overall result.

SIDE NOTE: I've said many times, Ford should upgrade the wheel/tire combination on the Mustang and it would improve handling. Thing is, they never did, till the GT350. Anyone stepping up in that way, alone, for their GT, is going to see a major improvement.

The real differences are a roll cage and no interior, due to rules. There is also the lack of headlamps and the like, I'm sure. Does it weigh plenty less than standard? Idonno, but... the thing that makes that stuff not matter is that the Z/28 gets the exact same treatment, but at what is said to now be less weight(ain't that odd?). So it turns out, each of these cars is as different and as identical to their street driven counterparts.

I don't think the changes really amount to "major," but that's just me. It may be a good test against the S550 TP, but nothing has ever once suggested it could or would win and in actual competition, it simply doesn't. I can't say anything else... because that's the truth of the matter. It's not about preference, but results.

Surely you've seen some of the HUNDREDS of comments regarding Al's claim that the new SS will beat the old 1LE on their road course. Expectations are through the roof with this one.

Has he ever actually shared his race results, or just said it felt faster and on a given day, he beat this or that with one, but not the other?

That, I totally agree with, because it just makes sense any way we look at it.

I can't say why they'd think that. I mean, the number of tests done without the TP or whatever... short list. Those were also "loaded" and in at least 1 case, a 'vert. With that information and none from the standard SS, I suppose anyone can run with it, in whichever direction they want.

That's actually ... incorrect and has been disputed by a Ford insider who said that Ford changed the plan and there will be no limiter. We've got reason to believe him too, as testing has shown serious rpm already. Besides, if the car has to maintain that high rpm for 8 seconds... that's RARE! Surely it gets reset each time the throttle is let off. Simply enough though, there is no overrev feature on the GT350. It was a print mistake.

http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/show...t=28945&page=4

With MR, I could agree that it wins. W/O it, no chance. I'd get the good stuff anyway, if buying a new 2016 Camaro SS. I hardly care what it weighs. I care about how it drives.

NW-99SS

iTrader: (6)

I agree with you on most topics we discuss, but this one I cannot.

A shell of a car, completely gutted, who knows what caster and camber settings, road course slick tires, weight that is regulated by the sanctioning body they race with (and specific placement of the weight as per rules), unknown suspension calibrations, plus everything you've listed COMPLETELY changes the way a car drives, handles, the balance, the list goes on...

The biggest correlation will be the body, and the suspension they use, but not the calibrations for it. Everything else is different.

Here is some reading if you care to take the time - realistically, a LOT of changes permitted.

http://www.imsa.com/sites/default/fi...%20%283%29.pdf

http://www.imsa.com/sites/default/fi...12%20FINAL.pdf

It'llrun

We even agree here... I was only making an obvious analogy. The 2 cars SHARE those changes. So realistically, it's about the same as if neither was changed. Yeah, they'll be different, but I don't see such gains from 1 car which the other doesn't also gain, following the same rules.

In other words, I'm not saying that either is the same as the standard version at a dealership ... just that they're changed equally and so, their differences should equally change and the end result will be much like the result without said changes. I'm looking at it in a dynamic point of view.

RikkiTorment

If you were to go back and reread my previous statement, I declared that I had not seen a test where they compared a TP/PP Mustang to a non-1LE dressed Camaro. I simply stated that the gap between the 1LE and the new "Performance Pack," is large enough that perhaps a race between a base model 2SS and the new Performance Pack would be a tighter race.

Nowhere did I declare this as truth or fact, it is simply a theory and food for thought.

UltraZLS1

iTrader: (13)

I heard about the gt350 rpm limit etc not being true. Just never replied in this thread after that. I had a hard time believing it anyway. Just kind of a bad sign this was an idea in the first place... Makes me question the quality of the motor in general...

As for the new ss vs 1le.... Al's latest statements would lead one to believe just the base ss is beating the 1le. Hard to believe... I can see it on a non-technical course with a lot of straits but other than that I'm not sure I buy it.

http://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=419653

He also re-confirms the weight loss. He's got to be crazy to still be lying this late in the game. They know what the car weighs by now.

It'llrun

I think I was addressing Rikki there, not you. Oh wait! Anyway, the reality is, while we haven't seen any testing to show us, the real reason we cannot actually know is simply because nobody at all has tested the Camaro SS in standard trim. They have tested some non TP/PP Mustangs, but it seems those were auto equipped convertibles or the like. Unlike the Camaro, the Mustang convertible simply DOES NOT perform as well or better than the fastback(or the coupe before it).

For the record, you ACTUALLY said... and that's why I'm still telling you, though you openly admit it's never happened, that your stating matter of fact, the standard SS would be close... is nonsense. you claimed "on par" and maybe even slower...

NO. PERIOD! The Mustang GT w/ TP or PP or whatever the Hell they call it... WINS, OUTRIGHT, regardless what you WANT to happen. This isn't about opinion. If the current base SS could win, GM would see to it that we all knew, believe it. They're not stupid, contrary to popular(at times) opinion.

Okay, so the rpm limit thing is done... the weight loss thing, we'll see. I think there may be a 1SS around or even over the 200 lb mark, OPTION-LESS. Aside from that, I 100% doubt it at this point. I'd like to be wrong, frankly. Each time something good(ie weight loss) happens to any of these cars, the next (2- these days) follows suite. If the Genesis were to be offered with a 4xxhp V8 at a lighter weight, we'd all see a benefit over that later... so bring it!

The base SS will NOT POSSIBLY beat the current 1LE... bank it.

RikkiTorment

Yep, I said it, and still think it is capable of doing so... I suppose I was not specific enough, read below.

Considering you can add a "performance package," with 1LE suspension components, while still retaining an SS trim at $37,000. I'd bank that it'd be a closer race than an actual 1LE. You can build and price it out yourself on chevy.com, choose "1SS" and the "V8 Coupe Performance Package" if you wish to see for yourself. However, without said package, no, you're right the SS would not win against the top tier packaged Mustang GT.

UltraZLS1

iTrader: (13)

I think you may eat crow on certain tracks. If the comparison is ever made.
It is a completely new chassis with less weight and more power. Its only disadvantage to the 1le is the tire size and compound. Which is a huge factor obviously. 275/245 compared to 285 all around. Which the runflat 3 summer tire on the 16ss was designed/tested just for the new camaro. No one knows how well these tires will perform. These could be some decent tires even if they are run flats....no one knows. But they were designed just for the car supposedly...

other than that if they went aggressive enough with the suspension tuning and slightly sacrificed the ride..not sure why it would be so impossible...especially on less curvy tracks. The 1le is a 3900 lb car riding on a chassis designed in 2004. The main advantage to MRC is having the best of both worlds...a base ss could compete with the mrc car depending on the ride quality they wanted on the base car etc.

Have you watched the video and his statements? either you believe gm or you dont....from some of your recent posts to others you seem to think we should (example we would know if a 12 ss beats a new pp GM would tell us)

I think it sounds far fetched as well...but im not going to guarantee that it is impossible like you did...we will see.

It'llrun

That's all I was saying.

You really think the new base SS will beat the 15 1LE... even on certain tracks? I see that to a point, but they'll HAVE to be tracks with very long straights and/or very few turns. In other words, not much of a road course. I'd say anything more than 6 turns over the course of 1.5 miles and the 1LE has an advantage just because it happens to be so well tuned for turns(and not comfort).

Indeed, less weight and more power is always a plus, particularly in drag racing. On road courses though, it's only marginally better and against a better tuned chassis... even though in base form the new 1 will be better than the old... it's not going to force a win. As you mentioned, tires will matter, for example.

The 1LE gets pretty good rubber along with the harder suspension and with all its weight, it is really planted as compared to a lighter car on run flat rubber. That said, run flat tires have come a VERY long way and today, they're pretty good to go. Against a track inspired tire like a Trofeo though... not so much.

Personally, I see the MR making the difference, but even then the tires will matter more than the weight or that hp bump.

Base 16 vs 1LE 15 ... I just don't see this being much of a challenge. It does depend largely on the base tire, so I may eat crow on that. From what little I've seen, I'm just convinced the 1LE has an almost easy win. It makes sense for Chevy to do that too, so they can make the 1LE better in the new chassis and make it truly matter.

The question about the new base SS beating the current 1LE seems to be one of comfort. I don't think Chevy is going to move that way and that's why, with the addition of MR, they'll have a better handler without really lacking any comfort. For a base Camaro though, that's too pricey and so (I think) they'll opt for more cushion and a different, more expensive package for better handling. That's how they've done it for ages now anyway, so it's to be expected.

As for believing GM, that's hit or miss and has been (for me anyway) for over 30yrs. They DEFINITELY aren't beyond lying, I know that.

ULTIMATEORANGESS

iTrader: (4)

HioSSilver

iTrader: (8)

Sexgen gonna drag some ***.

UltraZLS1

iTrader: (13)

heres your crow bro...

The 2016 Camaro SS features an all-new 6.2L LT1 V-8, SAE-certified at 455 horsepower (339 kW) and 455 lb-ft of torque (617 Nm), making it the most powerful Camaro SS in history. And with improved handling and performance, it delivers better lap times than the fifth-generation’s track-focused Camaro 1LE package. Available Magnetic Ride Control active suspension enables even higher levels of capability, control and refinement

strait from the press release....guess that's why it is starting at 37,200.

Think they lost the sales race...even though with what you get it is on par with mustang for the price...most will get sticker shock when comparing base v8 models....

NW-99SS

iTrader: (6)

This makes me very excited for the 6th Gen Z/28 model!

HioSSilver

iTrader: (8)

He's used to eating crow.

ULTIMATEORANGESS

iTrader: (4)

...........

It'llrun

As I've said before, if it does happen, that means the weight reduction really did pay off. I'll wait till we see real results before being certain this one is better. Of course, 1/1000th of a second is still better, so it could be. That said, I read that statement seemingly months ago and didn't care about it then either.

Jc803

iTrader: (2)

Not sure if anyone mentioned it, havent been keeping up with the thread for the last couple months but Cars.com states the 2016 Camaro 1 and 2SS curb weight is 3,685 lbs. 4.70 0-60, 12.77@114mph 1/4 mile. Says the 2016 Mustang GT curb weight is 3,705 lbs, 4.69 0-60, and 12.90@112mph 1/4 mile.

Also says the 1 and 2LT curb weight is 3,339 lbs.
Take it for what its worth. That site is pretty reliable just dont put too much detail in from trim to trim so I'm sure the 1ss and 2ss weights are slightly different.