Cheap headstuds on ebay...
08-29-2010, 07:35 AM
#41
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yes i here you on that one , makes no sence to me also, has spent how much already and wants to save 200 on insurance that says put these bolts on and never worry about it , we shouldnt have to worry about bolts on a build, Eric
08-29-2010, 08:20 AM
#42
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They may be fine and you may never have a problem. The reason I wouldn't use them is because, where I work we make, buy, and sell bolts and studs for OEM applications. The fasteners made in Mexico and overseas have constant quality problems. Anything from steel not in spec, bad heat treat, to manufacturing defects. Any of the above can cause a failure and some of the defects you can't see. Their quality control just isn't there.
08-29-2010, 10:06 AM
#43
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My father built the heat treating furnaces,tempers,etc for ARP. He worked with them for several weeks setting them up for optimal performance and even spent some time with Smokey Yunick while he was there.My Father is regarded as one of the most proficient people in his industry. He had nothing but good things to say about ARP and their QC.
They have a real metallurgist on the floor.They employ successful engineers and racing designers. They roll threads after heat treatment (EXPENSIVE!) putting the fasteners surface in a compressive state. This greatly increases the strength of the fastener.Radiused under heads of screws and bolts,chamfered ID on hardened and ground washers,etc.. I can go on for pages about heat treatments and fasteners. It'll get boring for most about half a paragraph ago.
In summary: Do not skimp on fasteners. ARP is TOP quality.
SPS:Standard Pressed Seel also makes high quality fasteners. They provide a fair amount of the fasteners that are already on F-Bodies and many other makes and models.
They have a real metallurgist on the floor.They employ successful engineers and racing designers. They roll threads after heat treatment (EXPENSIVE!) putting the fasteners surface in a compressive state. This greatly increases the strength of the fastener.Radiused under heads of screws and bolts,chamfered ID on hardened and ground washers,etc.. I can go on for pages about heat treatments and fasteners. It'll get boring for most about half a paragraph ago.
In summary: Do not skimp on fasteners. ARP is TOP quality.
SPS:Standard Pressed Seel also makes high quality fasteners. They provide a fair amount of the fasteners that are already on F-Bodies and many other makes and models.
08-29-2010, 10:49 AM
#44
$200 is not substantial... but if you paid 3x more for every part you bought for your car, things would add up fast. If you bought name brand everything for your car, you'd end up paying much more for stuff than necessary.
I like to equate this to stuff like Vibrant silicone couplers. You end up paying $60 for a single coupler when you can go on ebay and get a box of the same **** for $60, with lots of aluminum tubing to do the rest of the job.
I always just felt like ARP made a nice product, the main studs I have feel like a high quality product. They aren't, however, worth 3-4x the price of a similar product. If the off brand can get the job done, then whats the difference besides the money spent? Bragging rights? ARP is really the only name in the game, it would be nice if they had some competition to bring the prices down.
I like to equate this to stuff like Vibrant silicone couplers. You end up paying $60 for a single coupler when you can go on ebay and get a box of the same **** for $60, with lots of aluminum tubing to do the rest of the job.
I always just felt like ARP made a nice product, the main studs I have feel like a high quality product. They aren't, however, worth 3-4x the price of a similar product. If the off brand can get the job done, then whats the difference besides the money spent? Bragging rights? ARP is really the only name in the game, it would be nice if they had some competition to bring the prices down.
I don't think I would equate head studs to silicone couplers. Critical fasteners in the engine are a place where you don't want to pinch pennies. I would think the engineering and R&D it took to produce the ARP head studs were much more exhaustive than a Vibrant silcone coupler. Would you be comfortable buying rod bolts from this same manufacturer? I wouldn't.
ARP does have competition, but they are even more expensive. You've probably never heard of A1 Technologies. These companies produce products with almost nonexistent failure rates. That's why they cost more. You said "if the off brand can get the job done"...well that's a big if since it's a critical fastener. That's why you have had Kurt Urban, Shawn from VA Speed, and John from Scoggin Dickey all advise you not to buy them. They're all experienced enough to know that you don't want to take that chance. It's probably ok to take a chance on the cheapo off brands with silicone couplers, hose clamps, or maybe even valve covers, but not head studs.
Good luck with it though, I sincerely hope it works out okay for you.
08-29-2010, 11:09 AM
#45
There's a big difference between a head stud and a silicone coupler. Most of that difference centers around how easy it will be to repair if it fails, and how much damage it can cause. The head stud is clearly a riskier bet than the silicone coupler.
You're trading an extra $200 in your pocket for a higher risk of the parts failing. You think the odds are in your favor, and many people that replied to your post do not. I do not know what the odds are, but you have the parts in your hand and you still feel good about them, so that has to say something!
With that being said, I used ARP head studs and main studs on my engine because I don't have the time, money, time, patience, or time to go through my shortblock again!
With that being said, I used ARP head studs and main studs on my engine because I don't have the time, money, time, patience, or time to go through my shortblock again!
08-29-2010, 06:35 PM
#46
They have a real metallurgist on the floor.They employ successful engineers and racing designers. They roll threads after heat treatment (EXPENSIVE!) putting the fasteners surface in a compressive state. This greatly increases the strength of the fastener.Radiused under heads of screws and bolts,chamfered ID on hardened and ground washers,etc.. I can go on for pages about heat treatments and fasteners. It'll get boring for most about half a paragraph ago.
No one has posted stress tests comparing the two so the best litmus test posted is in general use. No posts are present saying "I broke a stud" only "my friend's cousin's dad etc broke one and I had to fix it grr"
Also, the silicone coupler reference is VERY valid. Companies sell their name all the time with no remarkable benefits over a cheaper or stock part. Think about the MSD coils, sticky FAST throttle bodies, TEA ported heads nearly catching AFR heads, pretty much any type of billet fuel rail ($230 for Aeromotive vs $150 Speedlines), ebay stainless headers actually fitting and flowing pretty darned good etc
08-29-2010, 08:11 PM
#47
If a silicone coupler fails, you're out peanuts compared to where a failed head stud could leave you, no? It's like comparing a failed elevator button to a failed elevator cable. One is a mere inconvenience (darn, I have to take the stairs down one flight), the other is a disaster!
Comparing the two in another way makes sense and is very valid. For instance, it's probably easier and cheaper to make a good silicone coupler, making a large markup truly gouging. But looking at the amount of damage/cost of repair of the failed part (failing in a typical way), a failed coupler and head stud are very different.
If you use them, let us know how it turns out. Until the eBay company has successful customers willing to share their experiences with us, we won't know how good they really are.
Comparing the two in another way makes sense and is very valid. For instance, it's probably easier and cheaper to make a good silicone coupler, making a large markup truly gouging. But looking at the amount of damage/cost of repair of the failed part (failing in a typical way), a failed coupler and head stud are very different.
If you use them, let us know how it turns out. Until the eBay company has successful customers willing to share their experiences with us, we won't know how good they really are.
08-30-2010, 07:28 AM
#49
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car blows of a coupler it loses boost you know it in mill seconds. The ECM stops pouring fuel in cause there no boost going into engine. all the sensors are reading no boost Maf/map/Fpr and you let off the pedal cause you know some thing just happened So your not washing down any walls in a 1 second time frame
08-30-2010, 12:28 PM
#54
Thats a given. It's most likely a Chinese subsidized part; You can't produce a quality stud and ship them half way around the world for that price.
I was waiting for someone to state this. The GM bolts are a known quantity and have gone through years of rigorous testing by GM. These studs are an unknown quantity and who knows how they are made.
I would not do this, but arguments sake you could probably rationalize using Chinese bolts/studs on the bottom end, where the LS design is over built. For heads, where the LS motor needs the most help, it makes no sense on trying an unknown quantity. Even if they have yield to break properties that equal the ARP, I would be concerned losing clamping force with heat cycling and time, especially in nitrous or blown application where you are typically operating at much higher temps.
And if your going to use unknown quantity Studs, you could also justify using some nice Chinese "Ebay head gaskets" to go with them. You can probably get them from the same seller you picked up the studs from.
I would not do this, but arguments sake you could probably rationalize using Chinese bolts/studs on the bottom end, where the LS design is over built. For heads, where the LS motor needs the most help, it makes no sense on trying an unknown quantity. Even if they have yield to break properties that equal the ARP, I would be concerned losing clamping force with heat cycling and time, especially in nitrous or blown application where you are typically operating at much higher temps.
And if your going to use unknown quantity Studs, you could also justify using some nice Chinese "Ebay head gaskets" to go with them. You can probably get them from the same seller you picked up the studs from.
Last edited by TT632; 08-30-2010 at 12:53 PM.
08-30-2010, 09:09 PM
#58
Well...I am looking at the pictures you posted, and the "knockoff" looks cut to me...granted it's not the best picture...but they certainly appear to have tool marks on the thread...you CAN cut a thread that FEELS as smooth as a rolled thread, and those threads very well may feel that way...but it's not as strong...
08-30-2010, 09:13 PM
#59
My father built the heat treating furnaces,tempers,etc for ARP. He worked with them for several weeks setting them up for optimal performance and even spent some time with Smokey Yunick while he was there.My Father is regarded as one of the most proficient people in his industry. He had nothing but good things to say about ARP and their QC.
They have a real metallurgist on the floor.They employ successful engineers and racing designers. They roll threads after heat treatment (EXPENSIVE!) putting the fasteners surface in a compressive state. This greatly increases the strength of the fastener.Radiused under heads of screws and bolts,chamfered ID on hardened and ground washers,etc.. I can go on for pages about heat treatments and fasteners. It'll get boring for most about half a paragraph ago.
In summary: Do not skimp on fasteners. ARP is TOP quality.
SPS:Standard Pressed Seel also makes high quality fasteners. They provide a fair amount of the fasteners that are already on F-Bodies and many other makes and models.
They have a real metallurgist on the floor.They employ successful engineers and racing designers. They roll threads after heat treatment (EXPENSIVE!) putting the fasteners surface in a compressive state. This greatly increases the strength of the fastener.Radiused under heads of screws and bolts,chamfered ID on hardened and ground washers,etc.. I can go on for pages about heat treatments and fasteners. It'll get boring for most about half a paragraph ago.
In summary: Do not skimp on fasteners. ARP is TOP quality.
SPS:Standard Pressed Seel also makes high quality fasteners. They provide a fair amount of the fasteners that are already on F-Bodies and many other makes and models.
08-31-2010, 12:44 AM
#60
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You make it sound like ARP is the only company out there who employs metallurgists and engineers. Whos to say this company doesnt as well and is simply selling at a lower profit margin to compete
No one has posted stress tests comparing the two so the best litmus test posted is in general use. No posts are present saying "I broke a stud" only "my friend's cousin's dad etc broke one and I had to fix it grr"
Also, the silicone coupler reference is VERY valid. Companies sell their name all the time with no remarkable benefits over a cheaper or stock part. Think about the MSD coils, sticky FAST throttle bodies, TEA ported heads nearly catching AFR heads, pretty much any type of billet fuel rail ($230 for Aeromotive vs $150 Speedlines), ebay stainless headers actually fitting and flowing pretty darned good etc
No one has posted stress tests comparing the two so the best litmus test posted is in general use. No posts are present saying "I broke a stud" only "my friend's cousin's dad etc broke one and I had to fix it grr"
Also, the silicone coupler reference is VERY valid. Companies sell their name all the time with no remarkable benefits over a cheaper or stock part. Think about the MSD coils, sticky FAST throttle bodies, TEA ported heads nearly catching AFR heads, pretty much any type of billet fuel rail ($230 for Aeromotive vs $150 Speedlines), ebay stainless headers actually fitting and flowing pretty darned good etc
I am saying ARP is one of the only companies to have a metallurgist on the production floor. You aren't just paying for the physical product. You're paying for research and development,quality control and a staff that knows what they are doing.Unless you can tell me the fasteners you have are from a reputable company (SPS,Holo Krome,ARP,etc) they are an inferior product.
You cannot make good fasteners on the cheap. You can with Throttle bodies; any one with a cnc program,the machine,and some billet can manage that.Hell it can be done in a home garage... Fasteners take quality heat treatment,highly specialized machinery,testing,etc. Totally different ballgame.