Hy-per Lube Zinc Replacement
08-01-2013, 02:44 AM
#21
TECH Senior Member
iTrader: (96)
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Turnin' Wrenches Infractions: 005
Posts: 24,240
Likes: 0
Received 79 Likes
on
70 Posts
http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-ZDDP-MAXX-ENGINE-OIL-ZDDP-ADDITIVE-ZINC-PHOSPHORUS-/270634194502?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3f030e1646&vxp=mtr
08-01-2013, 06:52 AM
#22
Launching!
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: SC
Posts: 277
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Zinc is a sacrificial wear additive that basically creates a ceramic barrier once heat and pressure are applied and is beneficial for ANY sliding or pivoting point in the engine...ring seal, rocker pivot, tappet, etc. No matter how good the oil's shear strength is it can only be pushed so far and that's where zinc picks up the slack. There is a certain "oil test" floating around that attempts to disparage the fact that zinc additives work and the way the test was performed indicates the person performing it has no idea how ZDDP works. He simply added it to oil, heated it up to a certain temperature, and then ran it in his "tester" for 30 seconds. Anyone ever seen a flat tappet cam 30 second break in procedure, much less one done without high zinc additive? It would be the same as knowing that every kitchen bacterial disinfectant and cleaner out there has a label right on it saying that it must be left on the surface for 10 minutes for the disinfectant to work and kill everything, then leaving it on for 15 seconds and releasing a test report that said they do not work.
I posted this on another board when the discussion went to diesel oils but there are a couple of points in it that may apply....
-----------
Do your own research as it's not guaranteed that any diesel oil regardless of classification has enough zinc. Personally I pay the $25 to have any oil I want to use tested by Blackstone, or just search the bitog forums.
For diesel oil zinc is not limited, phosphorus is. Since phosphorus typically comes from ZDDP the fact that zinc is limited is just a side effect. ZDDP is about 5:4 so zinc will be about 120% of phos. The diesel classifications put NO MINIMUM on phosphorus so that means there is no guarantee that there is a high amount of ZDDP in it. Also for all gasoline classifications of motor oil (SM, SN) there is NO LIMIT on weights above 30W so 40W and above can contain more. This is how Rotella T6 5W-40 can have over 1200ppm zinc but still be SM and CJ-4 rated even though SM limits phosphorus to min/max 600/800ppm (about 750/1000 zinc)...it's above 30W. However, Rotella T5 10W-30 will have less since it's also SM and CJ-4 rated and must have below 800ppm phos since it's a 30W.
SM/SN phos min/max 0.06/0.08% 30W and below (approx 750/1000 zinc)
SM/SN phos min/max 0.06/NL% 40W and above (approx 750/no limit zinc)
CI-4 phos max 0.14% (approx 1750 zinc...NO MINIMUM!)
CJ-4 phos max 0.12% (approx 1500 zinc...NO MINIMUM!)
So....no guarantees.
As a side note, I've seen a report from a fleet diesel mechanic that he was having multiple rocker pivot failures on a certain model Dodge engine with some of the newer diesel oil but had none on engines running confirmed higher phos limit oil. I've said it before but the API wear tests are not all-encompassing when it comes to what setups the oil formulation will protect.
I posted this on another board when the discussion went to diesel oils but there are a couple of points in it that may apply....
-----------
Do your own research as it's not guaranteed that any diesel oil regardless of classification has enough zinc. Personally I pay the $25 to have any oil I want to use tested by Blackstone, or just search the bitog forums.
For diesel oil zinc is not limited, phosphorus is. Since phosphorus typically comes from ZDDP the fact that zinc is limited is just a side effect. ZDDP is about 5:4 so zinc will be about 120% of phos. The diesel classifications put NO MINIMUM on phosphorus so that means there is no guarantee that there is a high amount of ZDDP in it. Also for all gasoline classifications of motor oil (SM, SN) there is NO LIMIT on weights above 30W so 40W and above can contain more. This is how Rotella T6 5W-40 can have over 1200ppm zinc but still be SM and CJ-4 rated even though SM limits phosphorus to min/max 600/800ppm (about 750/1000 zinc)...it's above 30W. However, Rotella T5 10W-30 will have less since it's also SM and CJ-4 rated and must have below 800ppm phos since it's a 30W.
SM/SN phos min/max 0.06/0.08% 30W and below (approx 750/1000 zinc)
SM/SN phos min/max 0.06/NL% 40W and above (approx 750/no limit zinc)
CI-4 phos max 0.14% (approx 1750 zinc...NO MINIMUM!)
CJ-4 phos max 0.12% (approx 1500 zinc...NO MINIMUM!)
So....no guarantees.
As a side note, I've seen a report from a fleet diesel mechanic that he was having multiple rocker pivot failures on a certain model Dodge engine with some of the newer diesel oil but had none on engines running confirmed higher phos limit oil. I've said it before but the API wear tests are not all-encompassing when it comes to what setups the oil formulation will protect.
Last edited by SSellers; 08-01-2013 at 07:02 AM.
08-01-2013, 12:45 PM
#23
On The Tree
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: new castle PA
Posts: 180
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
wildcamaro 04:25 PM 07-29-2013 Don't need zinc unless you're breaking in a flat tappet cam...
.^^ agreed. It's a roller cam and lifters there's no need for it your not trying to hardened the metal like a mechanical cam. No need to run anything diff then the factory Mobil 1 if there was something different don't you think GM would release a TSB saying don't use it. It's an LS motor not some old redneck sbc running vr1 20-50.
.^^ agreed. It's a roller cam and lifters there's no need for it your not trying to hardened the metal like a mechanical cam. No need to run anything diff then the factory Mobil 1 if there was something different don't you think GM would release a TSB saying don't use it. It's an LS motor not some old redneck sbc running vr1 20-50.
08-01-2013, 01:04 PM
#24
wildcamaro 04:25 PM 07-29-2013 Don't need zinc unless you're breaking in a flat tappet cam...
.^^ agreed. It's a roller cam and lifters there's no need for it your not trying to hardened the metal like a mechanical cam. No need to run anything diff then the factory Mobil 1 if there was something different don't you think GM would release a TSB saying don't use it. It's an LS motor not some old redneck sbc running vr1 20-50.
.^^ agreed. It's a roller cam and lifters there's no need for it your not trying to hardened the metal like a mechanical cam. No need to run anything diff then the factory Mobil 1 if there was something different don't you think GM would release a TSB saying don't use it. It's an LS motor not some old redneck sbc running vr1 20-50.
Mobil 1 is garbage now compared to what it was back when these cars were produced.
08-01-2013, 01:20 PM
#25
On The Tree
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: new castle PA
Posts: 180
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Like I said see any TSB from gm?! I run 5-30 my car has 110,000 on it and NEVER drops below 40 psi at an idle and its spotless inoside the ay it should be. Ids never runthat in a LS all ur doing is making it where the next person that owns ur car puts what comes in it from the factory and there gunna have 3psi at an idle
08-01-2013, 01:26 PM
#26
On The Tree
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: new castle PA
Posts: 180
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
2nd that bottle states on the front for all flat tappet cams. And the zinc is making it quitter its how thick the **** is. I could care less what people run opinions are like ********... Everyone has one!! I just think its funny when parts people think there gunna out smart engineers from gm. Oh yea what do ls motors still come with from the factory?
08-01-2013, 03:26 PM
#28
2nd that bottle states on the front for all flat tappet cams. And the zinc is making it quitter its how thick the **** is. I could care less what people run opinions are like ********... Everyone has one!! I just think its funny when parts people think there gunna out smart engineers from gm. Oh yea what do ls motors still come with from the factory?
LS1 PCV system
BCM that always needs to be resoldered eventually
Bubbling sail panel
limp noodle stock pushrods....
Yeah, I'd say LOTS of folks have out smarted the cost-cutting-EPA-mandated engineers at GM.
08-01-2013, 03:32 PM
#29
Why doesn't GM hire memebers from this forum to do the engineering/design/research and development? Apparently they don't know anything even though we are all buying/loving their product on a daily basis...
But in all reality the engineers do have to make compromises, if it was up to them don't you think every car would be a zr1? They have to deal with a lot of BS from EPA, government, management...I don't think they did too bad...
But in all reality the engineers do have to make compromises, if it was up to them don't you think every car would be a zr1? They have to deal with a lot of BS from EPA, government, management...I don't think they did too bad...
08-01-2013, 04:12 PM
#30
You think some chintzy additive is the answer? WTF?
And FYI when GM ran testing on the LS engine the ran them at max rpm for 24 straight hours for 30 days straight which isn't exactly a couple spirited revs, they did their homework..
On the other hand this thread is getting pretty entertaining, def brightened my day lol
And FYI when GM ran testing on the LS engine the ran them at max rpm for 24 straight hours for 30 days straight which isn't exactly a couple spirited revs, they did their homework..
On the other hand this thread is getting pretty entertaining, def brightened my day lol
08-01-2013, 04:29 PM
#33
Don't own a shop but I've built every engine I'm running all with straight up Mobil one and never had an issue...and I drag race all the time I ain't just grandmaing around town that's for sure...and sometimes I do enjoy a nicely prepped mullet it's a Camaro hair style that's for sure
And owning a shop don't mean ****, I've seen plenty of yayhoos that don't know a brake pad from and engine block that is their own shop
I usually don't try to get into this petty **** but for you ill make an exception
And owning a shop don't mean ****, I've seen plenty of yayhoos that don't know a brake pad from and engine block that is their own shop
I usually don't try to get into this petty **** but for you ill make an exception
08-01-2013, 04:36 PM
#34
On The Tree
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: new castle PA
Posts: 180
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
bozzhawg 02:55 PM Today
Originally Posted by dr_whigham: Like the 10 bolt rear end LS1 PCV system BCM that always needs to be resoldered eventually Bubbling sail panel limp noodle stock pushrods....
Yeah, I'd say LOTS of folks have out smarted the cost-cutting-EPA-mandated engineers at GM. Don t worry brah, the'll be back posting asking "whats wrong or what is this sound".
The nay sayers clearly are not actively making passes at the track or on the street
^^
Wrong agin I take care of my **** 1. 2 don't need to pay anyone or ask anyone common sense **** .
Originally Posted by dr_whigham: Like the 10 bolt rear end LS1 PCV system BCM that always needs to be resoldered eventually Bubbling sail panel limp noodle stock pushrods....
Yeah, I'd say LOTS of folks have out smarted the cost-cutting-EPA-mandated engineers at GM. Don t worry brah, the'll be back posting asking "whats wrong or what is this sound".
The nay sayers clearly are not actively making passes at the track or on the street
^^
Wrong agin I take care of my **** 1. 2 don't need to pay anyone or ask anyone common sense **** .
08-01-2013, 05:29 PM
#36
On The Tree
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: new castle PA
Posts: 180
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When this thread started he didn't ask anything about break in or none of that he was runnin rotella and zinc additive on a mostly stock motor that had a baby cam put in it a year ago.
08-01-2013, 05:43 PM
#37
Didnt say a word about anything you listed, just puttin words in my mouth and I don't claim to know everything but just because I haven't bought a crate motor don't prove ****...just stay down in the 3rd ward and don't come north Unless you wanna get your car worked out by some good ole boys...that being said can we stop with this bullshit?? It solves nothing and makes us both look bad...
