500 RWHP - LS6 or LS1
04-01-2003, 09:16 PM
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500 RWHP - LS6 or LS1 I am in the planning process of a motor swap project. I want to do and GEN3 motor.
In the end I am shooting for 500RWHP NA no spray. This will be shoves through a Camaro/Firebird T-56, Dennys driveshaft, 03 Corbra 8.8 with Torsen, and Cro-Mo axels. So, parasidic loses shouldn't be too bad.
I am thinking 550-575 flywheel HP to get 500 of it to the ground. I want the ending combo to idle like stock or dang close and have a nice low to mid range torque curve with nice high end HP. Am looking at a 7k redline.
Question is -
Should I start with an GM LS1 Crate motor or grab an LS6 shortblock or longblock ?
Basically, which is going to be a better choice for my eventual goals ?
SF
In the end I am shooting for 500RWHP NA no spray. This will be shoves through a Camaro/Firebird T-56, Dennys driveshaft, 03 Corbra 8.8 with Torsen, and Cro-Mo axels. So, parasidic loses shouldn't be too bad.
I am thinking 550-575 flywheel HP to get 500 of it to the ground. I want the ending combo to idle like stock or dang close and have a nice low to mid range torque curve with nice high end HP. Am looking at a 7k redline.
Question is -
Should I start with an GM LS1 Crate motor or grab an LS6 shortblock or longblock ?
Basically, which is going to be a better choice for my eventual goals ?
SF
04-01-2003, 09:25 PM
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Re: 500 RWHP - LS6 or LS1 Any price limitations? Your gona have to run 420+ cubes to do this with some stock maners left it it. What about time limitations and so on. Its no real cheap way out with this much power N/A, just hope your ready. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
04-01-2003, 09:36 PM
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Re: 500 RWHP - LS6 or LS1 Motor purchase +/- 6 months.
Power adders +/- 5min from engine purchase <img border="0" alt="[driving]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_driving3.gif" />
....but seriously...
Want to get a running motor +/- 6 months to do the swap, then once I get the car balanced and dialed start adding power. Since this is a swap a wiring harness and computer are considerations.
Basically the LS1 crate motor is the best bang for the buck since it is complete ready to run. I am just worried that the LS1 block and base internals will not be able to get to my lofty goals. Hence, the question about just starting with an LS6.
SF
Power adders +/- 5min from engine purchase <img border="0" alt="[driving]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_driving3.gif" />
....but seriously...
Want to get a running motor +/- 6 months to do the swap, then once I get the car balanced and dialed start adding power. Since this is a swap a wiring harness and computer are considerations.
Basically the LS1 crate motor is the best bang for the buck since it is complete ready to run. I am just worried that the LS1 block and base internals will not be able to get to my lofty goals. Hence, the question about just starting with an LS6.
SF
04-01-2003, 10:05 PM
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Re: 500 RWHP - LS6 or LS1 I don't know what your reasons are for wanting to do it NA, but those will be hard goals to meet without a lot of cubes. I think it would be better to just throw a blower on it. My Bro-in-law has a blown 302 that dynos at 450 rwhp, it idles just like stock, and passes California emissions. Plus, street maners are excellent. Blowers don't distroy your low-end torque like huge cams do, they just make your intake more efficient through out the entire rpm range. I would go with the LS1 crate motor since you're going to change out a lot of the internals anyway. You could even go with an iron Gen III if you want a really strong bottom end.
04-01-2003, 10:35 PM
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Re: 500 RWHP - LS6 or LS1 </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Speed-Freak:
<strong> Basically the LS1 crate motor is the best bang for the buck since it is complete ready to run. I am just worried that the LS1 block and base internals will not be able to get to my lofty goals. Hence, the question about just starting with an LS6.
SF </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hmmm..... Well, yes, the LS1 crate motor might be a decent price for the performance, but it's not going to cut it in stock form. Neither will the LS6 as it's main upgrades to the LS1 are better heads and cam, as that's where the added power comes from. The block is supposedly a bit stronger, but that won't make any difference in power.
If you want to do this NA with a Gen 3 motor, you only really have 2 options as I see it - first option is to just go to an all out LS1/6 stroker motor like 422+ cubes. That's going to require a whole new bottom end with a stroker crank and also a bored block that has been resleeved most likely. Or you could do it starting with an Iron block 6.0 liter for a little cheaper but with added weight. If you go this route, pretty much nothing is going to be stock in the engine, so you might as well start from scratch with the block.
Second route, you MIGHT be able to do this with a stock cube LS1 as a radical solid roller setup. In this case, you could start with a used LS1 and upgrade the pistons to forged, add some ARP rod bolts for strength. Then get a set of really good stage II/III heads with a radical solid cam and valve train w/ adjustable rockers because you'll have to adjust the valve lash regularly. You might get close w/ this setup, but it will be tough and you'll probably have to rev it to 7,000 or more. This setup BTW, will NOT idle like stock at all. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
With either setup, you'll need the full assortment of boltons available as well. It's not easy to get power like that NA.
<small>[ April 01, 2003, 10:41 PM: Message edited by: JF WS6 ]</small>
<strong> Basically the LS1 crate motor is the best bang for the buck since it is complete ready to run. I am just worried that the LS1 block and base internals will not be able to get to my lofty goals. Hence, the question about just starting with an LS6.
SF </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hmmm..... Well, yes, the LS1 crate motor might be a decent price for the performance, but it's not going to cut it in stock form. Neither will the LS6 as it's main upgrades to the LS1 are better heads and cam, as that's where the added power comes from. The block is supposedly a bit stronger, but that won't make any difference in power.
If you want to do this NA with a Gen 3 motor, you only really have 2 options as I see it - first option is to just go to an all out LS1/6 stroker motor like 422+ cubes. That's going to require a whole new bottom end with a stroker crank and also a bored block that has been resleeved most likely. Or you could do it starting with an Iron block 6.0 liter for a little cheaper but with added weight. If you go this route, pretty much nothing is going to be stock in the engine, so you might as well start from scratch with the block.
Second route, you MIGHT be able to do this with a stock cube LS1 as a radical solid roller setup. In this case, you could start with a used LS1 and upgrade the pistons to forged, add some ARP rod bolts for strength. Then get a set of really good stage II/III heads with a radical solid cam and valve train w/ adjustable rockers because you'll have to adjust the valve lash regularly. You might get close w/ this setup, but it will be tough and you'll probably have to rev it to 7,000 or more. This setup BTW, will NOT idle like stock at all. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
With either setup, you'll need the full assortment of boltons available as well. It's not easy to get power like that NA.
<small>[ April 01, 2003, 10:41 PM: Message edited by: JF WS6 ]</small>
04-01-2003, 11:48 PM
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Re: 500 RWHP - LS6 or LS1 http://www.cartek.net/
http://www.motorsporttech.com/
http://www.lingenfelter.com/
http://www.agostino-racing.com/
Thoes are the 4 major shops that you need to talk to. Tell them what you want, and they can point you in the right direction <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
http://www.motorsporttech.com/
http://www.lingenfelter.com/
http://www.agostino-racing.com/
Thoes are the 4 major shops that you need to talk to. Tell them what you want, and they can point you in the right direction <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
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04-02-2003, 12:40 AM
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Re: 500 RWHP - LS6 or LS1 Thanks for the info guys. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
Forced induction is out for the same reason an iron 6.0 liter block is out, weight. A centrifugal blow is a possiblity but I would want to add an air/water aftercooler so that puts too much weight into the car.
Nitrous is out because I hate refilling the bottle every couple days. <img border="0" alt="[driving]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_driving3.gif" />
Higher compression is desired but of course all this has to live on Cali-crap 91 octain.
As for the project......
The car will be a 93-95 3rd generation Mazda RX-7. Renowned as one of the best handeling cars, period. Pulling the factory 2-Rotor motor, turbos, and intercooling/piping is the same weight as an aluminum LS1/6. With a small 2,800 lb factory curb weight and 50/50 stock distrobution, I don't want to muck that up.
Looks like I will just get the LS1 crate motor and add goodies as i want. Another LS1 swap 7 ran 11.9 1/4 on street tires with a decent cam but through the stock Mazda rearend.
SF
Forced induction is out for the same reason an iron 6.0 liter block is out, weight. A centrifugal blow is a possiblity but I would want to add an air/water aftercooler so that puts too much weight into the car.
Nitrous is out because I hate refilling the bottle every couple days. <img border="0" alt="[driving]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_driving3.gif" />
Higher compression is desired but of course all this has to live on Cali-crap 91 octain.
As for the project......
The car will be a 93-95 3rd generation Mazda RX-7. Renowned as one of the best handeling cars, period. Pulling the factory 2-Rotor motor, turbos, and intercooling/piping is the same weight as an aluminum LS1/6. With a small 2,800 lb factory curb weight and 50/50 stock distrobution, I don't want to muck that up.
Looks like I will just get the LS1 crate motor and add goodies as i want. Another LS1 swap 7 ran 11.9 1/4 on street tires with a decent cam but through the stock Mazda rearend.
SF
04-02-2003, 12:45 AM
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Re: 500 RWHP - LS6 or LS1 As the others have mentioned, these are some big shoes to fill in light of your expectations.
As suggested, a 420+" sleeved/stroked motor is your best bet... even then, while the idle won't be as radical as a 346 making similar RWHP numbers, it still won't idle like stock (a lot of folks around here seem to have forgotten what stock LS1's idle like... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> ). It'll still make some pretty healthy noises at idle (I recently saw a 50x RWHP 418" LSx car being idled... sounded NNNIIIIIIIIICCCEEEEEE, but could in no way be mistaken for stock). In all seriousness, I would recommend forcefeeding the motor a little bit- it'll be MUCH cheaper in the long run (price one of the "super-stroker" packages, then go price the Charged Air Systems or LS1 Motorsports turbo kits, and you'll see what I mean...), and make your goals all that much easier to reach.
Just my $.02...
As suggested, a 420+" sleeved/stroked motor is your best bet... even then, while the idle won't be as radical as a 346 making similar RWHP numbers, it still won't idle like stock (a lot of folks around here seem to have forgotten what stock LS1's idle like... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> ). It'll still make some pretty healthy noises at idle (I recently saw a 50x RWHP 418" LSx car being idled... sounded NNNIIIIIIIIICCCEEEEEE, but could in no way be mistaken for stock). In all seriousness, I would recommend forcefeeding the motor a little bit- it'll be MUCH cheaper in the long run (price one of the "super-stroker" packages, then go price the Charged Air Systems or LS1 Motorsports turbo kits, and you'll see what I mean...), and make your goals all that much easier to reach.
Just my $.02...
04-02-2003, 10:45 AM
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Re: 500 RWHP - LS6 or LS1 </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Speed-Freak:
<strong> Thanks for the info guys. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
Forced induction is out for the same reason an iron 6.0 liter block is out, weight. A centrifugal blow is a possiblity but I would want to add an air/water aftercooler so that puts too much weight into the car.
Nitrous is out because I hate refilling the bottle every couple days. <img border="0" alt="[driving]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_driving3.gif" />
Higher compression is desired but of course all this has to live on Cali-crap 91 octain.
As for the project......
The car will be a 93-95 3rd generation Mazda RX-7. Renowned as one of the best handeling cars, period. Pulling the factory 2-Rotor motor, turbos, and intercooling/piping is the same weight as an aluminum LS1/6. With a small 2,800 lb factory curb weight and 50/50 stock distrobution, I don't want to muck that up.
Looks like I will just get the LS1 crate motor and add goodies as i want. Another LS1 swap 7 ran 11.9 1/4 on street tires with a decent cam but through the stock Mazda rearend.
SF </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think a stock cubed, forged internal, small block solid roller on gas would be sweet in that 7. Run a 200 shot and you'd be in the 9's no problem.
<strong> Thanks for the info guys. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
Forced induction is out for the same reason an iron 6.0 liter block is out, weight. A centrifugal blow is a possiblity but I would want to add an air/water aftercooler so that puts too much weight into the car.
Nitrous is out because I hate refilling the bottle every couple days. <img border="0" alt="[driving]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_driving3.gif" />
Higher compression is desired but of course all this has to live on Cali-crap 91 octain.
As for the project......
The car will be a 93-95 3rd generation Mazda RX-7. Renowned as one of the best handeling cars, period. Pulling the factory 2-Rotor motor, turbos, and intercooling/piping is the same weight as an aluminum LS1/6. With a small 2,800 lb factory curb weight and 50/50 stock distrobution, I don't want to muck that up.
Looks like I will just get the LS1 crate motor and add goodies as i want. Another LS1 swap 7 ran 11.9 1/4 on street tires with a decent cam but through the stock Mazda rearend.
SF </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think a stock cubed, forged internal, small block solid roller on gas would be sweet in that 7. Run a 200 shot and you'd be in the 9's no problem.
04-02-2003, 11:09 AM
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Re: 500 RWHP - LS6 or LS1 I know one of the problems with an LS1/6 in an RX-7 is that it is kind of tight in there for headers. Also, since its not going in an F-body - the turbo kits likely woundn't even come close to fitting properly. Your best bet with that conversion is to go with a big cube motor or even just a plain old 382/3 stroker with a fairly big, but not huge cam. With a raceweight of 2800lbs with a cage and everything you could run some stout numbers without to much hassle (besides traction of course <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) I believe the car you are refering to earlier that went 11s was on a B1 cam with stock exhaust manifolds (Hinson correct??)
04-02-2003, 11:35 AM
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Re: 500 RWHP - LS6 or LS1 Speed freak,
I am swapping an LS1 into a 93 FD right now and oyu arent going to get those numbers with out spending Jim labreck types of $$$ (I have seen you on torquecentral so I know you know Jim). Without going FI or N2O you arent going to get a streetable car that will pass emissions in cali. It is an impossible goal for a NA 500 RWHP LS1 that is going to meet emissions in california unless you spend some winston cup type of money. Christ you have any idea what even 400rwhp in an RX7 would be like especially will 4:10's. you wont be able to hit the gas.
Mike
I am swapping an LS1 into a 93 FD right now and oyu arent going to get those numbers with out spending Jim labreck types of $$$ (I have seen you on torquecentral so I know you know Jim). Without going FI or N2O you arent going to get a streetable car that will pass emissions in cali. It is an impossible goal for a NA 500 RWHP LS1 that is going to meet emissions in california unless you spend some winston cup type of money. Christ you have any idea what even 400rwhp in an RX7 would be like especially will 4:10's. you wont be able to hit the gas.
Mike
04-02-2003, 11:46 AM
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Re: 500 RWHP - LS6 or LS1 I have a 500rwhp NA ls6 for sale for $6800 outright. You'll need to add an intake manifold, valve covers, oil packs, stock rockers arms, and a few other little things, but it's a good buy.
04-02-2003, 01:47 PM
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Re: 500 RWHP - LS6 or LS1 It will pass but it takes some work. In smog trim it does not make 500rwhp, but it's not *that* hard to switch back and forth. Drives ok on the street in non-smog trim for me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
04-02-2003, 04:36 PM
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Re: 500 RWHP - LS6 or LS1 </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Speed-Freak:
<strong> I am in the planning process of a motor swap project. I want to do and GEN3 motor.
In the end I am shooting for 500RWHP NA no spray. This will be shoves through a Camaro/Firebird T-56, Dennys driveshaft, 03 Corbra 8.8 with Torsen, and Cro-Mo axels. So, parasidic loses shouldn't be too bad.
I am thinking 550-575 flywheel HP to get 500 of it to the ground. I want the ending combo to idle like stock or dang close and have a nice low to mid range torque curve with nice high end HP. Am looking at a 7k redline.
Question is -
Should I start with an GM LS1 Crate motor or grab an LS6 shortblock or longblock ?
Basically, which is going to be a better choice for my eventual goals ?
SF </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I just sent you a private message.
<strong> I am in the planning process of a motor swap project. I want to do and GEN3 motor.
In the end I am shooting for 500RWHP NA no spray. This will be shoves through a Camaro/Firebird T-56, Dennys driveshaft, 03 Corbra 8.8 with Torsen, and Cro-Mo axels. So, parasidic loses shouldn't be too bad.
I am thinking 550-575 flywheel HP to get 500 of it to the ground. I want the ending combo to idle like stock or dang close and have a nice low to mid range torque curve with nice high end HP. Am looking at a 7k redline.
Question is -
Should I start with an GM LS1 Crate motor or grab an LS6 shortblock or longblock ?
Basically, which is going to be a better choice for my eventual goals ?
SF </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I just sent you a private message.
04-02-2003, 06:25 PM
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Re: 500 RWHP - LS6 or LS1 ClassicCollector -
Yes, Brian Hinson's car.
93LS1RX7 -
Don't think I can spend Jims type budget all at once but over time, I can see it.
Anyway, running Jims Cobra rearend with 3.55 or 3.45'ish gearing and adding RaceLogic or other TCS can take care of the horrible traction/throttle gremblens.
The cars purpose is not to be a horrific excersize if street racing futility.
Car is going to be a track ****.
Not strip...... TRACK !
So, I want to make the best decision now on what to run so that I do not have to scrap it and start over later.
500rwhp is insane but I have a feeling it is doable somehow with concessions here and there.
By the time the car is in more of its final form it will be a streetable race car more than a racable street car. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
MTI's 427 Z07 package looks interesting.......
SF
Yes, Brian Hinson's car.
93LS1RX7 -
Don't think I can spend Jims type budget all at once but over time, I can see it.
Anyway, running Jims Cobra rearend with 3.55 or 3.45'ish gearing and adding RaceLogic or other TCS can take care of the horrible traction/throttle gremblens.
The cars purpose is not to be a horrific excersize if street racing futility.
Car is going to be a track ****.
Not strip...... TRACK !
So, I want to make the best decision now on what to run so that I do not have to scrap it and start over later.
500rwhp is insane but I have a feeling it is doable somehow with concessions here and there.
By the time the car is in more of its final form it will be a streetable race car more than a racable street car. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
MTI's 427 Z07 package looks interesting.......
SF
04-02-2003, 10:01 PM
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Re: 500 RWHP - LS6 or LS1 MTI 427 Z07 gets my vote! <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" /> I went with i believe to be MTI first 427 Z07 ironblock, b/c i wanted the extra piece of mind assoc. with a stronger bottom end that won't ever have the chance of dropping a sleeve. In my 98 C5 roadster, i cannot tell any difference driving the streets a weekend warrior concering 90lb weight penalty!
Can't beat MTI, with their workmanship, customer service, performance, and UNSURPASSABLE 2 YEAR/24K unconditional warranty for (NO GAS OR other F/I) but they must also do the install and tune to TAP INTO That warranty. That's why i just trailored my car their and back to my home in Chicago area. Through my A4 my radical S1 cam idles great and has not ever stalled during my first 1000 miles.
GOOD LUCK,
MTI 427 C5 Roadster
Can't beat MTI, with their workmanship, customer service, performance, and UNSURPASSABLE 2 YEAR/24K unconditional warranty for (NO GAS OR other F/I) but they must also do the install and tune to TAP INTO That warranty. That's why i just trailored my car their and back to my home in Chicago area. Through my A4 my radical S1 cam idles great and has not ever stalled during my first 1000 miles.
GOOD LUCK,
MTI 427 C5 Roadster
04-03-2003, 12:25 AM
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Re: 500 RWHP - LS6 or LS1 Terry is that motor streetable? Not just can it drive on the street but live on the street and pass california emissions with 91 octane gas?? If so I am impressed and wrong about my earlier statement.
Mike
Mike
05-23-2008, 11:50 AM
#19
What about a rear mount turbo? Keep boost low, easily hit your mark, no intercooler. Weight would be kept to the rear of the car. Maybe making your front to rear weight ratio better. And a stock like idle.
You'd also have a broader tq curve, more power out of the corners.
You'd also have a broader tq curve, more power out of the corners.
