Need Help troubleshooting white smoke at idle
02-15-2006, 08:02 PM
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Need Help troubleshooting white smoke at idle Here's the background: Swapped in a Torquer 2 cam last summer. Trans took a dump, car was done for a very long time. Once I got the tranny stuff situated I tried my hand at tuning the Torquer 2. I wasn't happy with the results so I swapped out to a LPE GT2-3 and am VERY happy with it right now. Here's the problem:
When the Torquer 2 was in, I determined that this white smoke (which is more like steam, exaggerated by the flourescent work light) was raw unburnt fuel because of the overlap of the cam. From what I can tell, it smells like fuel. I don't know what burnt coolant smells like though. After swapping in the LPE GT2-3 cam, I expected much of this to go away.
Symptoms:
1. Upon start-up there isn't any smoke at all. Only when the ECT gets to about 150* does it start to smoke.
2. At idle, it's a very steady stream, doesn't go away even after idling for 10 minutes or more.
3. I can't tell from inside the car if the it still smokes while cruising. While looking in the rear view, I don't see any clouds of smoke or anything.
Anyway, here are some pics, I'd greatly appreciate any input you guys can give. Cars been down since last summer with one thing after another, I'd like to get at least one more driving season out of it before having to tear the heads off. I just don't understand why I'd blow a gasket or warp a head with only 25,000 miles on the clock. BTW, there is some condensation in the oil fill cap. Even after I wipe it off, when I stick it back in it'll have more condensation in it after a couple of minutes. Doesn't smell like coolant if I stick my nose in there.
When the Torquer 2 was in, I determined that this white smoke (which is more like steam, exaggerated by the flourescent work light) was raw unburnt fuel because of the overlap of the cam. From what I can tell, it smells like fuel. I don't know what burnt coolant smells like though. After swapping in the LPE GT2-3 cam, I expected much of this to go away.
Symptoms:
1. Upon start-up there isn't any smoke at all. Only when the ECT gets to about 150* does it start to smoke.
2. At idle, it's a very steady stream, doesn't go away even after idling for 10 minutes or more.
3. I can't tell from inside the car if the it still smokes while cruising. While looking in the rear view, I don't see any clouds of smoke or anything.
Anyway, here are some pics, I'd greatly appreciate any input you guys can give. Cars been down since last summer with one thing after another, I'd like to get at least one more driving season out of it before having to tear the heads off. I just don't understand why I'd blow a gasket or warp a head with only 25,000 miles on the clock. BTW, there is some condensation in the oil fill cap. Even after I wipe it off, when I stick it back in it'll have more condensation in it after a couple of minutes. Doesn't smell like coolant if I stick my nose in there.
02-15-2006, 08:27 PM
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Picture descriptions from left to right:
1. Shows drops of water from left tailpipe slip fitting,
2. white smoke in action exaggerated by the work light,
3. more smoke,
4. condensation in the right tailpipe while the car is running,
5. more driping on the ground from the tailpipe slip fitting.
BTW, the condensate looks like water, feels like water, smells like nothing (water), and...
...TASTES like water!
1. Shows drops of water from left tailpipe slip fitting,
2. white smoke in action exaggerated by the work light,
3. more smoke,
4. condensation in the right tailpipe while the car is running,
5. more driping on the ground from the tailpipe slip fitting.
BTW, the condensate looks like water, feels like water, smells like nothing (water), and...
...TASTES like water!
02-15-2006, 08:27 PM
#5
most cars with no cats steam for a long time when its cold out. the catalytic converters burn this stuff off once they get hot enough, so cars with no cats will steam longer as it takes longer for the exhaust to warm up. so far it seems normal. if you have a junk pot or skillet, put some coolant and water in it and slowly heat it up. this will teach you the smell of hot coolant and you can compare it to what you smell at the pipe. also you coolant level would be low if it was coolant. so check that also.
02-15-2006, 08:30 PM
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thanks for the response, I just refilled the coolant today after finishing up the cam install. I overfilled it, so it was bubbling up for about 2 minutes or so, once it came down to the proper level, it stopped bubbling. I should go let it run for about 10 minutes and check the fluid level again. I'm gonna try the skillet thing, sounds like a good idea.
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02-15-2006, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by CBX
That looks pretty normal to me.
Still, I'd like to pressure test all of my cylinders to eliminate a crack in the block. This will also eliminate the possibility of a blown head gasket if they all check in around 170 psi correct?
BTW, I just rechecked my coolant level HOT and it is about an 1 inch below where it was previously when I re-filled it after my cam install. I'm guessing I'm gonna have to add coolant for another day or 2 until it's full right? If I'm constantly having to add coolant, like everyday or so, I know I'm burning coolant.
02-16-2006, 12:27 AM
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that it just steam from condensation and yes, some unburnt fuel from no cats. my car is the same, no cats, f14 cam. I was worried sick for the 1st few days like you. However, just watch your coolant level, it took my car about a week to get ALL the air out of the system. BTW, if you let it idle with the rad-cap off, you'll evap quite a bit of coolant. I learned that by experimentation(sp?). Watch your coolant leve, check your plugs. but overall thats normal for the exhaust.
if you do a search, you can probally find my old posts about the same thing.
ski
if you do a search, you can probally find my old posts about the same thing.
ski
02-16-2006, 10:22 AM
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thanks again for the response guys. I multiplied my VE table by .8 to get the idle mixture a little leaner. The smoke doesn't smell much like anything anymore, it's real hard for me to pick up a scent from it now. We'll see what happens in the spring/summer. Thanks alot for all the help.
02-16-2006, 11:30 AM
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I have dealt with the "white smoke" myself recently. I had just put the car together and had put approx. 2K mile on the heads and cam. The block on the 98F1 has about 20K on it. I drive a 95 Z28 mostly so the 98 had been sitting for about two weeks when I started it up on a cold day. Clouds of steam came out the exhaust for about 2-3 minutes of driving and then it went away. The car ran fine for the rest of the day. When I checked the coolant level I was down (in the overflow tank) about 3 inches. This car NEVER leaked so my suspicions were up. I drove it pretty constant for about 1 week noticing a slight noise sort of like an exhaust leak under load. No more clouds of white smoke but I was warming the car up nice each time.
When I checked the cap in the valve cover there were a few drops of what appeared to be thick oil. I run Mobil 1 - the drops were the consistency of grease and there was very little of it so I put it (the negative thoughts) in the back of my head. I had been checking the coolant and it seemed to be OK. Then, last Tuesday, the poop hit the fan. I fired the car up on a cold morning and it was missing on one hole real solid and sounded terrible. I shut the car down and checked the coolant and it was down about 2 inches. When the car cooled off I pulled the plugs. The drivers side looked good except for a bit of fuel fouling, something you might expect with a cold start and no warmup. On the passenger side plugs 2,4, and 6 have white on the ground strap. I called Gunner at Patriot and he wants to see the heads, I have torn the car down (to the heads). Both valve covers have "snot" in them. The passenger side on the forward half, the drivers side in the area where the covers are connected by the PCV hose.
It is very probable that I have blown a head gasket, will know for sure by this weekend. As the hobby goes, I am using this as an excuse for a racetronix fuel pump, larger injectors, and an 80mm throttle body. If anyone else has been through this please let me know. I'm curious as to why, after following the procedure to the letter, I would screw up the head gasket.
When I checked the cap in the valve cover there were a few drops of what appeared to be thick oil. I run Mobil 1 - the drops were the consistency of grease and there was very little of it so I put it (the negative thoughts) in the back of my head. I had been checking the coolant and it seemed to be OK. Then, last Tuesday, the poop hit the fan. I fired the car up on a cold morning and it was missing on one hole real solid and sounded terrible. I shut the car down and checked the coolant and it was down about 2 inches. When the car cooled off I pulled the plugs. The drivers side looked good except for a bit of fuel fouling, something you might expect with a cold start and no warmup. On the passenger side plugs 2,4, and 6 have white on the ground strap. I called Gunner at Patriot and he wants to see the heads, I have torn the car down (to the heads). Both valve covers have "snot" in them. The passenger side on the forward half, the drivers side in the area where the covers are connected by the PCV hose.
It is very probable that I have blown a head gasket, will know for sure by this weekend. As the hobby goes, I am using this as an excuse for a racetronix fuel pump, larger injectors, and an 80mm throttle body. If anyone else has been through this please let me know. I'm curious as to why, after following the procedure to the letter, I would screw up the head gasket.
02-17-2006, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by slowpoke96z28
what procedure did you use to tighten the head bolts? did you use new ones?
02-17-2006, 05:27 PM
#15
The white steam appears normal to me. What I am curious about, I have a Vette not an f-body, is you filling the coolant to the top. You need to leave expansion room in the Vette tank and there is a cold fill line and a hot line. Don't overfill the system.
02-18-2006, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by vettenuts
The white steam appears normal to me. What I am curious about, I have a Vette not an f-body, is you filling the coolant to the top. You need to leave expansion room in the Vette tank and there is a cold fill line and a hot line. Don't overfill the system.
Thanks for all the help guys
02-18-2006, 10:45 AM
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I think you've got your answer. I'll throw in my two cents.
1. All cars will blow steam out their exhaust on a cold morning or even if they have sat for a period of weeks/months regardless if they have a cat or not.
2. Always keep an eye on your coolant level. Once the motor goes thru a few warm up cool down cycles all air should be gone out of the motor, the radiator will top itself off so you only need to watch the overflow bottle.
3. Not sure what you experienced with your coolant stew but in general coolant smells "sweet". You'll especially notice the smell when standing at the rear of the vehicle when the vehicle is first started.
4. Now if you've blown a head gasket or have a cracked head the motor will typically want to heat up quickly and if you are not carefull it will overheat (> 210 deg F). and warp the heads.
5. If the vehicle has been overheated the heads can warp but depending on how much they have warped the engine may or may not overheat, so the only indication you'll have is rough idle, sweet smell, loss of coolant over time, steam out the exhaust pipe, also the coolant system will want to have immediate EXCESSIVE pressure (this is because the combustion chamber is pressurizing the system). Note: it will normally pressurize under normal condition as the coolant heats up (expansion/contraction).
6. If you have a cracked head, blown head gasket, warped head one of the best things you can do is check the spark plugs. Typically if all is well the plugs will be tan in color. Ranging from light tan to dark tan depending on the AFR, which should be 14.7. If the plugs are black you are rich. If the plugs are white you are lean. If the plugs are white and rough with bumps you are lean and most likely beginning to burn a hole thru the piston. If the plugs are very light tan/white but have floursent or light green tint then you are definately burning coolant. I'd assmume the plugs would be red if you are using the red style coolant.
1. All cars will blow steam out their exhaust on a cold morning or even if they have sat for a period of weeks/months regardless if they have a cat or not.
2. Always keep an eye on your coolant level. Once the motor goes thru a few warm up cool down cycles all air should be gone out of the motor, the radiator will top itself off so you only need to watch the overflow bottle.
3. Not sure what you experienced with your coolant stew but in general coolant smells "sweet". You'll especially notice the smell when standing at the rear of the vehicle when the vehicle is first started.
4. Now if you've blown a head gasket or have a cracked head the motor will typically want to heat up quickly and if you are not carefull it will overheat (> 210 deg F). and warp the heads.
5. If the vehicle has been overheated the heads can warp but depending on how much they have warped the engine may or may not overheat, so the only indication you'll have is rough idle, sweet smell, loss of coolant over time, steam out the exhaust pipe, also the coolant system will want to have immediate EXCESSIVE pressure (this is because the combustion chamber is pressurizing the system). Note: it will normally pressurize under normal condition as the coolant heats up (expansion/contraction).
6. If you have a cracked head, blown head gasket, warped head one of the best things you can do is check the spark plugs. Typically if all is well the plugs will be tan in color. Ranging from light tan to dark tan depending on the AFR, which should be 14.7. If the plugs are black you are rich. If the plugs are white you are lean. If the plugs are white and rough with bumps you are lean and most likely beginning to burn a hole thru the piston. If the plugs are very light tan/white but have floursent or light green tint then you are definately burning coolant. I'd assmume the plugs would be red if you are using the red style coolant.
02-18-2006, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by heavyfoot
I think you've got your answer. I'll throw in my two cents.
1. All cars will blow steam out their exhaust on a cold morning or even if they have sat for a period of weeks/months regardless if they have a cat or not.
2. Always keep an eye on your coolant level. Once the motor goes thru a few warm up cool down cycles all air should be gone out of the motor, the radiator will top itself off so you only need to watch the overflow bottle.
3. Not sure what you experienced with your coolant stew but in general coolant smells "sweet". You'll especially notice the smell when standing at the rear of the vehicle when the vehicle is first started.
4. Now if you've blown a head gasket or have a cracked head the motor will typically want to heat up quickly and if you are not carefull it will overheat (> 210 deg F). and warp the heads.
5. If the vehicle has been overheated the heads can warp but depending on how much they have warped the engine may or may not overheat, so the only indication you'll have is rough idle, sweet smell, loss of coolant over time, steam out the exhaust pipe, also the coolant system will want to have immediate EXCESSIVE pressure (this is because the combustion chamber is pressurizing the system). Note: it will normally pressurize under normal condition as the coolant heats up (expansion/contraction).
6. If you have a cracked head, blown head gasket, warped head one of the best things you can do is check the spark plugs. Typically if all is well the plugs will be tan in color. Ranging from light tan to dark tan depending on the AFR, which should be 14.7. If the plugs are black you are rich. If the plugs are white you are lean. If the plugs are white and rough with bumps you are lean and most likely beginning to burn a hole thru the piston. If the plugs are very light tan/white but have floursent or light green tint then you are definately burning coolant. I'd assmume the plugs would be red if you are using the red style coolant.
1. All cars will blow steam out their exhaust on a cold morning or even if they have sat for a period of weeks/months regardless if they have a cat or not.
2. Always keep an eye on your coolant level. Once the motor goes thru a few warm up cool down cycles all air should be gone out of the motor, the radiator will top itself off so you only need to watch the overflow bottle.
3. Not sure what you experienced with your coolant stew but in general coolant smells "sweet". You'll especially notice the smell when standing at the rear of the vehicle when the vehicle is first started.
4. Now if you've blown a head gasket or have a cracked head the motor will typically want to heat up quickly and if you are not carefull it will overheat (> 210 deg F). and warp the heads.
5. If the vehicle has been overheated the heads can warp but depending on how much they have warped the engine may or may not overheat, so the only indication you'll have is rough idle, sweet smell, loss of coolant over time, steam out the exhaust pipe, also the coolant system will want to have immediate EXCESSIVE pressure (this is because the combustion chamber is pressurizing the system). Note: it will normally pressurize under normal condition as the coolant heats up (expansion/contraction).
6. If you have a cracked head, blown head gasket, warped head one of the best things you can do is check the spark plugs. Typically if all is well the plugs will be tan in color. Ranging from light tan to dark tan depending on the AFR, which should be 14.7. If the plugs are black you are rich. If the plugs are white you are lean. If the plugs are white and rough with bumps you are lean and most likely beginning to burn a hole thru the piston. If the plugs are very light tan/white but have floursent or light green tint then you are definately burning coolant. I'd assmume the plugs would be red if you are using the red style coolant.
