Is anyone running a 347/364 with ET LS7 heads and LS7 intake?
08-07-2006, 02:09 PM
#1
Is anyone running a 347/364 with ET LS7 heads and LS7 intake? This came up in another thread as an alternative to the LS1/6 aftermarket heads with the FAST 90. Apparently, the FAST 90 is limiting, significantly more so than the LS7 intake.
However, has anyone here actually built one? If so, what were the results?
However, has anyone here actually built one? If so, what were the results?
08-07-2006, 02:28 PM
#2
Originally Posted by DavidNJ
This came up in another thread as an alternative to the LS1/6 aftermarket heads with the FAST 90. Apparently, the FAST 90 is limiting, significantly more so than the LS7 intake.
However, has anyone here actually built one? If so, what were the results?
However, has anyone here actually built one? If so, what were the results?
08-07-2006, 02:42 PM
#3
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That the Fast 90 limits even the best ls1/ls6 cathedral head's airflow to 300cfm while the ls7 intake flows 330cfm.
DavidNJ, you can cross out the 347 from your title, the ETP LS7 heads need a minumum 4.00" bore.
346=3.900" bore.
DavidNJ, you can cross out the 347 from your title, the ETP LS7 heads need a minumum 4.00" bore.
346=3.900" bore.
08-07-2006, 02:50 PM
#4
Originally Posted by JakeFusion™
600rwhp with the FAST 90 on an NA application. What's so limiting about them?
I may have been the one to make the post about the LS7 heads/intake, so I will try and add my oponion....
Jake, the 90mm fast flat out kills the flow of a LS1/LS6 style head.
Look at the flow numbers ETP/Trick Flow has goten with their aftermarket heads and slap a fast on top and see that those badass 330+ cfm heads now flow like 290.
Pick any head on Tony mamo's list and slap a Ported Fast manifold on and see how much worse the heads flows.
We all know that air is very important to making power. The more air a car can get in the more potential the car will have in making power.
No matter if a NA car made 1000 RWHP if the intake makes the heads flow way less air then the intake is limiting the setup.
Now GM has came out with a new manifold. Overall the manifold flows much better then a fast manifold.
We have had some sponsors show a LS7 head flowing 370 cfm's and with the manifold on top flowing 330.
That is damn good.
Now the 4" bore ETP LS7 heads dont flow quite as well and only flow around 350@650. However Creig from ET has told me that his 4" bore LS7's with LS7 intake will out flow his 245cc LS1 style heads with a 90mm Fast, and out flow it very easily.
They are about the same size but work way better because of the better manifold.
Now on to the origional question.
On a 347, I am not sure how the combo would work. Either combo would require a nice size cam to make the combo better then a normal LSx/Fast combo. A 364 is a 4" bore and is a little bigger.
The heads are made for a 4" bore motor and personially I feel there could be a power advantage. How much, we could only guess at that.
I personially would still go ETP 225's fast 90/90 on this size motor unless I was racing the car very often and was looking for every extra pony.
08-07-2006, 02:53 PM
#5
I assume we will see better numbers in time, but most port matched + aggressive cammed LS7s aren't doing a whole lot better than 600-620 right now to the rear wheels.
A few AFR 225 427s with decent cams and a FAST 90 have done 575-600. Extremely streetable 441s and 447s are putting down 600 as well in the Vette world with good cathedral port heads.
I think a lot of people assume the reason their combo is making **** for power is because of the FAST or their heads. There's no way it could be the actual combo.
300cfm is plenty of air up to 600rwhp. And you're right, that's about the limit. If LS7s or these other heads were making 700rwhp with similar streetable cams, then I might be impressed (and I do expect that at some point, but the next break-through is only a tomorrow away). Anyway, I hate to seem jaded, but I have yet to see any of the LS7s really wipe the floor with anything that's been around for several years. It has the potential, that's for sure, but on most people's budget, a 402/408 is as big as it gets and the LS7 style-stuff, and, on paper, it should make more power. Maybe in time we will finally see that.
For a max-effort 346, the AFR 225 small bores are your best bet for performance.
A few AFR 225 427s with decent cams and a FAST 90 have done 575-600. Extremely streetable 441s and 447s are putting down 600 as well in the Vette world with good cathedral port heads.
I think a lot of people assume the reason their combo is making **** for power is because of the FAST or their heads. There's no way it could be the actual combo.
300cfm is plenty of air up to 600rwhp. And you're right, that's about the limit. If LS7s or these other heads were making 700rwhp with similar streetable cams, then I might be impressed (and I do expect that at some point, but the next break-through is only a tomorrow away). Anyway, I hate to seem jaded, but I have yet to see any of the LS7s really wipe the floor with anything that's been around for several years. It has the potential, that's for sure, but on most people's budget, a 402/408 is as big as it gets and the LS7 style-stuff, and, on paper, it should make more power. Maybe in time we will finally see that.
For a max-effort 346, the AFR 225 small bores are your best bet for performance.
Last edited by JakeFusion; 08-07-2006 at 02:58 PM.
08-07-2006, 03:57 PM
#6
Originally Posted by JakeFusion™
I assume we will see better numbers in time, but most port matched + aggressive cammed LS7s aren't doing a whole lot better than 600-620 right now to the rear wheels.
A few AFR 225 427s with decent cams and a FAST 90 have done 575-600. Extremely streetable 441s and 447s are putting down 600 as well in the Vette world with good cathedral port heads.
I think a lot of people assume the reason their combo is making **** for power is because of the FAST or their heads. There's no way it could be the actual combo.
300cfm is plenty of air up to 600rwhp. And you're right, that's about the limit. If LS7s or these other heads were making 700rwhp with similar streetable cams, then I might be impressed (and I do expect that at some point, but the next break-through is only a tomorrow away). Anyway, I hate to seem jaded, but I have yet to see any of the LS7s really wipe the floor with anything that's been around for several years. It has the potential, that's for sure, but on most people's budget, a 402/408 is as big as it gets and the LS7 style-stuff, and, on paper, it should make more power. Maybe in time we will finally see that.
For a max-effort 346, the AFR 225 small bores are your best bet for performance.
A few AFR 225 427s with decent cams and a FAST 90 have done 575-600. Extremely streetable 441s and 447s are putting down 600 as well in the Vette world with good cathedral port heads.
I think a lot of people assume the reason their combo is making **** for power is because of the FAST or their heads. There's no way it could be the actual combo.
300cfm is plenty of air up to 600rwhp. And you're right, that's about the limit. If LS7s or these other heads were making 700rwhp with similar streetable cams, then I might be impressed (and I do expect that at some point, but the next break-through is only a tomorrow away). Anyway, I hate to seem jaded, but I have yet to see any of the LS7s really wipe the floor with anything that's been around for several years. It has the potential, that's for sure, but on most people's budget, a 402/408 is as big as it gets and the LS7 style-stuff, and, on paper, it should make more power. Maybe in time we will finally see that.
For a max-effort 346, the AFR 225 small bores are your best bet for performance.
Again Jake we have like 1 427 LS1 style head making 600, and only a handful making over 575. Damn near every C6Z06 that has done a cam, bolt on's and a good tune makes 600+, and on avarage is probally well over 575.
I try and look at avarage results instead of just 1 or 2 best results. I agree with a perfect setup 575 is achieveable in a 427 with a Fast 90, however with a far from perfect setup 575 is achieveable with the LS7 stuff.
I see that combo that made 600 as a hell of a lot of money. Why not make 625-640 without spending any extra money?
If I told you I could give you 25+ HP for free I bet you wouldn't refuse it.
You say most aren't doing better then 600-620 that is still way better then most 427 LS1 style heads with a fast 90.
To make this arguement as easy as possible to see that it makes since what I am saying, simply look around and ask yourself why people buy 2-3 thousand dollar intakes if the fast is good enough....
There would be no reason.
Also take a 408 cubic inch.....
Dollars for dollar the heads are more but the intake is almost 500 dollars less then a 90mm fast. So price isn't a factor. The 2 combo's are within a couple hundred dollars of eachother.
Also on a stock 346 we all know the ETP 225's compete with the AFR 225's, as do the TEA trick flows, so saying the AFR's make the best power is just a oponion.
08-07-2006, 07:04 PM
#7
On LS1Tech I don't see any LS1s making 600rwhp (unless its solid roller or something that costs $25k+ and has no reliability whatsoever). That doesn't mean there aren't plenty of those engines out there in the Vette world. If you go 427+, you're going to spend money, there's no way around that, so trying to save $500 after all is said and done is moot for someone with the money to spend in the first place.
A better arguement for 600+rwhp is a turbo or supercharger, which also happens to be a far more streetable setup. Both of which can do 800rwhp for the same price as a 427+ (LS7 or otherwise). So, again, it comes down to what you want.
ETP 225, AFR 225, TEA TFS, or whatever. Spend $2k on the heads and make some awesome power, but don't half-*** the rest of the combo and bitch about low performance. Which is what I'm saying about the FAST. Most people aren't shooting for 680rwhp. They might go for 550-600 with a reasonable setup on something like a 408/402. Sure, an LS7-style head and manifold should make that easier, but with the proper "old" technology, it still should be acheivable for roughly the same price point. If you want 650rwhp+, it won't be. I just hate when people are quick to dismiss something because they can't get their setup to do what they want when it's not designed to work well at all. An LS7 manifold still isn't going to fix that, but it might make another 20rwhp.
A better arguement for 600+rwhp is a turbo or supercharger, which also happens to be a far more streetable setup. Both of which can do 800rwhp for the same price as a 427+ (LS7 or otherwise). So, again, it comes down to what you want.
ETP 225, AFR 225, TEA TFS, or whatever. Spend $2k on the heads and make some awesome power, but don't half-*** the rest of the combo and bitch about low performance. Which is what I'm saying about the FAST. Most people aren't shooting for 680rwhp. They might go for 550-600 with a reasonable setup on something like a 408/402. Sure, an LS7-style head and manifold should make that easier, but with the proper "old" technology, it still should be acheivable for roughly the same price point. If you want 650rwhp+, it won't be. I just hate when people are quick to dismiss something because they can't get their setup to do what they want when it's not designed to work well at all. An LS7 manifold still isn't going to fix that, but it might make another 20rwhp.
Last edited by JakeFusion; 08-07-2006 at 07:10 PM.
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08-07-2006, 07:20 PM
#8
Originally Posted by JakeFusion™
On LS1Tech I don't see any LS1s making 600rwhp (unless its solid roller or something that costs $25k+ and has no reliability whatsoever). That doesn't mean there aren't plenty of those engines out there in the Vette world. If you go 427+, you're going to spend money, there's no way around that, so trying to save $500 after all is said and done is moot for someone with the money to spend in the first place.
A better arguement for 600+rwhp is a turbo or supercharger, which also happens to be a far more streetable setup. Both of which can do 800rwhp for the same price as a 427+ (LS7 or otherwise). So, again, it comes down to what you want.
ETP 225, AFR 225, TEA TFS, or whatever. Spend $2k on the heads and make some awesome power, but don't half-*** the rest of the combo and bitch about low performance. Which is what I'm saying about the FAST. Most people aren't shooting for 680rwhp. They might go for 550-600 with a reasonable setup on something like a 408/402. Sure, an LS7-style head and manifold should make that easier, but with the proper "old" technology, it still should be acheivable for roughly the same price point. If you want 650rwhp+, it won't be. I just hate when people are quick to dismiss something because they can't get their setup to do what they want when it's not designed to work well at all. An LS7 manifold still isn't going to fix that, but it might make another 20rwhp.
A better arguement for 600+rwhp is a turbo or supercharger, which also happens to be a far more streetable setup. Both of which can do 800rwhp for the same price as a 427+ (LS7 or otherwise). So, again, it comes down to what you want.
ETP 225, AFR 225, TEA TFS, or whatever. Spend $2k on the heads and make some awesome power, but don't half-*** the rest of the combo and bitch about low performance. Which is what I'm saying about the FAST. Most people aren't shooting for 680rwhp. They might go for 550-600 with a reasonable setup on something like a 408/402. Sure, an LS7-style head and manifold should make that easier, but with the proper "old" technology, it still should be acheivable for roughly the same price point. If you want 650rwhp+, it won't be. I just hate when people are quick to dismiss something because they can't get their setup to do what they want when it's not designed to work well at all. An LS7 manifold still isn't going to fix that, but it might make another 20rwhp.
I can agree with that.
I hate seeing people assume their combo is held back because of a bad manifold when they have a 10:1 motor, or when they had their boy port their heads and think they are the best. Combo is everything.
You can take every bad *** part out there and if tuned incorrectly get your *** kicked and blow ur motor.
Combo is the key.
Geting the right cam is a big part. You cant get some AFR 225's with a Fast 90/90 and expect to make 500 HP with a 218/222 525/525 115LSA cam and a 72cc head on a 346 cubic inch motor.
Hell I wouldn't even expect 400 with that combo to the tires.
What I have been suggesting is my oponion of a better setup that has just been available lately.
What Jake is saying is combo is key and why fix something if it works?
08-07-2006, 08:00 PM
#9
Originally Posted by JZ'sTA
I can agree with that.
I hate seeing people assume their combo is held back because of a bad manifold when they have a 10:1 motor, or when they had their boy port their heads and think they are the best. Combo is everything.
You can take every bad *** part out there and if tuned incorrectly get your *** kicked and blow ur motor.
Combo is the key.
Geting the right cam is a big part. You cant get some AFR 225's with a Fast 90/90 and expect to make 500 HP with a 218/222 525/525 115LSA cam and a 72cc head on a 346 cubic inch motor.
Hell I wouldn't even expect 400 with that combo to the tires.
What I have been suggesting is my oponion of a better setup that has just been available lately.
What Jake is saying is combo is key and why fix something if it works?
I hate seeing people assume their combo is held back because of a bad manifold when they have a 10:1 motor, or when they had their boy port their heads and think they are the best. Combo is everything.
You can take every bad *** part out there and if tuned incorrectly get your *** kicked and blow ur motor.
Combo is the key.
Geting the right cam is a big part. You cant get some AFR 225's with a Fast 90/90 and expect to make 500 HP with a 218/222 525/525 115LSA cam and a 72cc head on a 346 cubic inch motor.
Hell I wouldn't even expect 400 with that combo to the tires.
What I have been suggesting is my oponion of a better setup that has just been available lately.
What Jake is saying is combo is key and why fix something if it works?
But, I'm waiting to see some results of the ETP LS7s. With a ported LS7 manifold and the proper cam with correct VEs and good DCR, very good power should be realized on the 402/408s that everyone loves. The next big thing is of course the L92 heads with the 4.065" bore. Unshrouding the chamber even further on a budget can only mean good things.
08-07-2006, 11:16 PM
#10
Don't the LS7 heads have significantly raised ports vs. the L92? Wouldn't the ETP small bore LS7 (and presumably AFR, Dart, and TrickFlow competitors) have an edge over the L92?
Into the dyno racing...chassis dyno racing...those 20hp would seem like a lot. If any of the popular LS1 heads had a consistent 20hp advantage, the manufacturer would never be able to keep up.
Into the dyno racing...chassis dyno racing...those 20hp would seem like a lot. If any of the popular LS1 heads had a consistent 20hp advantage, the manufacturer would never be able to keep up.
08-07-2006, 11:58 PM
#11
Originally Posted by DavidNJ
Don't the LS7 heads have significantly raised ports vs. the L92? Wouldn't the ETP small bore LS7 (and presumably AFR, Dart, and TrickFlow competitors) have an edge over the L92?
Into the dyno racing...chassis dyno racing...those 20hp would seem like a lot. If any of the popular LS1 heads had a consistent 20hp advantage, the manufacturer would never be able to keep up.
Into the dyno racing...chassis dyno racing...those 20hp would seem like a lot. If any of the popular LS1 heads had a consistent 20hp advantage, the manufacturer would never be able to keep up.
08-08-2006, 09:53 AM
#12
To me it would be worth the extra 20 especially if I didn't have a top end yet.
The ETP 4" bore's are like 3200 but the intake is only 300 and the rocker arms like 140.
Total is around 3700 shipped.
Take that against a 225 AFR that is 2600 and a fast 90 that is about 800 and you will have 3400 plus shipping. For the couple hundred bucks its worth it to me.
Now there are some guys that build a 5000 dollar bottom end and use a ported LS1 head and LS6 manifold on the top end. Why build a bad *** bottom with a awful top end, only to get beat buy the guys with stock shortblocks and great parts up top.
The ETP 4" bore's are like 3200 but the intake is only 300 and the rocker arms like 140.
Total is around 3700 shipped.
Take that against a 225 AFR that is 2600 and a fast 90 that is about 800 and you will have 3400 plus shipping. For the couple hundred bucks its worth it to me.
Now there are some guys that build a 5000 dollar bottom end and use a ported LS1 head and LS6 manifold on the top end. Why build a bad *** bottom with a awful top end, only to get beat buy the guys with stock shortblocks and great parts up top.
08-08-2006, 11:05 PM
#13
The bottom end stuff is even worse than that. A lot of it seems to be 4032 forged pistons, Chinese H-beam rods and crank without the attention to friction and sealing that would raise brake power. However, many of the bottom end changes are designed to increase displacement.
It seems that the ports on the LS7-style head probably also has better flow into the chamber which should result in better combustion. Which takes us to the begining of this thread: does someone have some running examples???
It seems that the ports on the LS7-style head probably also has better flow into the chamber which should result in better combustion. Which takes us to the begining of this thread: does someone have some running examples???