441ci 4.190" bore/4" stroke: what safe RPM with solid roller?
09-01-2014, 10:08 AM
#61
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Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Studewood/Acres-Homes TX.
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Oh you understand english....but read this WE will come anywhere in the UNITED STATES if your MONEY IS RIGHT 10 GRAND OR BETTER, bring your ITB setup, we've got 70 grand in just the engine...Larger than a NHRA PROSTOCK ENGINE WITH SOME ADD ONS,
FACT. Now specing a CnC motorsports FORD MOUNTAIN MOTOR on dope. We own the shop = WHOLESALE on all parts.
DOPE BOY 101: YOU CAN'T OUT RUN US OR OUT SPEND US. Thats our theme and I WORK A 9 to 5....FACT.
Check out the avatar: we look to take MONEY & KILL LEGENDS or State Race car Heros
BTW - JUST BECAUSE YOU TYPED IT DON'T MAKE you RIGHT.
HAPPY LABOR DAY 2 EVERY 1.....
FACT. Now specing a CnC motorsports FORD MOUNTAIN MOTOR on dope. We own the shop = WHOLESALE on all parts.
DOPE BOY 101: YOU CAN'T OUT RUN US OR OUT SPEND US. Thats our theme and I WORK A 9 to 5....FACT.
Check out the avatar: we look to take MONEY & KILL LEGENDS or State Race car Heros
BTW - JUST BECAUSE YOU TYPED IT DON'T MAKE you RIGHT.
HAPPY LABOR DAY 2 EVERY 1.....
Last edited by lil john; 09-01-2014 at 12:24 PM.
09-01-2014, 04:00 PM
#62
You guys making the comparison of a road course, big cam/cube street taming ITB's vs high rpm sheet metal builds is comical. Apples and oranges....
My build was intended to be fitted with a Marcella piece and one of his throttle bodies. Problem was, it would only function at idle and WOT. Enter the ITB...
Lil John...
....stop ....talking
My build was intended to be fitted with a Marcella piece and one of his throttle bodies. Problem was, it would only function at idle and WOT. Enter the ITB...
Lil John...
....stop ....talking 
09-01-2014, 10:51 PM
#64
Show us the data that your Monte isn't the biggest dyno queen on the forum...
And another Mr. Know-it-all....please tell me where you make all of your incremental changes to your car to validate whether it actually improves or not......yeah right, like the track is the right place to do this when you're lucky to get 1/2 dozen passes complete in one night.
09-09-2014, 11:10 PM
#66
Won't you be surprised!
And another Mr. Know-it-all....please tell me where you make all of your incremental changes to your car to validate whether it actually improves or not......yeah right, like the track is the right place to do this when you're lucky to get 1/2 dozen passes complete in one night.
And another Mr. Know-it-all....please tell me where you make all of your incremental changes to your car to validate whether it actually improves or not......yeah right, like the track is the right place to do this when you're lucky to get 1/2 dozen passes complete in one night.
I don't really know how much CSA these LS7 type variants they ran had in the test they did at the port manifold interface? They never said and there were no pictures of how well ports lined up or fit etc. Maybe they were both big enough there and not so limited like the cathedral port Harrop was before massive porting? Couldn't really tell.
All real race stuff in unlimited form with no rules runs an ITB type setup all the way up to 5 hp per inch NA F1 stuff so there is no question whatsoever in what setup is best with no compromises. Of course the real world is full of compromises!
Most all American race stuff especially and including drag race stuff is based around carbs as per the rules so that's the type manifolds we have and always see on race stuff. It's not because it's best though it's because you are not allowed to run anything else.
Now whether the actual ITB stuff out there like we see for these LSx deals is absolutely way better than any carb style intakes or even a one big throttle body FAST? That's probably not an easy answer but I don't think so myself. I just wish they made a bigger cross section FAST for these larger engines with a lil shorter runners.
The Harrop is just too damn expensive for 99% of people and then you have to port it as well heavily at least on the old ones which just makes it not really doable for most people. Then there's the other issues of air filters and syncing all those throttle etc.
09-09-2014, 11:14 PM
#67
Won't you be surprised!
And another Mr. Know-it-all....please tell me where you make all of your incremental changes to your car to validate whether it actually improves or not......yeah right, like the track is the right place to do this when you're lucky to get 1/2 dozen passes complete in one night.
And another Mr. Know-it-all....please tell me where you make all of your incremental changes to your car to validate whether it actually improves or not......yeah right, like the track is the right place to do this when you're lucky to get 1/2 dozen passes complete in one night.
MPH though even with crappy times is a good indicator of hp so that's something to look at but you still have to correct that for weather as well.
Sometimes in Houston even at sea level we have really crappy air and the track sucks. Other times its hooking and the air is very low and the times are awesome.
You just never know!
09-10-2014, 06:57 PM
#69
Wow, lots hammering on the Harrop or ITBs.
I do not know the Harrop 58mm for the LS7 port first hand, but my 55mm Cathedral port was a sad affair on the flow bench and did a lot of time on the flow bench and I designed my own CNC'd 3D adaptor to match the TFS 245 port shape and angles for that testing. So there are a few of us who do hands on research.
With a throttle shaft I designed and some porting we gained 45 cfm from it. 12 were from my shafts, 10 from removing the step behind the blade and the rest from port matching and opening up the runner.
I have Cathedral port heads, 11.1:1 and made 705 fwhp@6150 and 663ft.lbs@5000, idles at 750rpm and was with a older smallish 1 7/8 header with no merge collector, it has a 2" with a merge from Kooks now, so it should pick up a few hp. At least I hope it does. Nothing special, but I like it.
http://www.streetfire.net/video/ls7-455-with-a-harrop-part-2_2290861.htm
Now, to the people who say they have never seen a quick ITB, here is one running 143mph in the traps back in 2009 with a 388 ci motor. Well set up they can fly, this is a cathedral port as well! Rob's intake had more work done than mine, and I think he shifted at 9k. Just going off memory, this was 5 years ago. I spent a lot of time on the phone with Rob to learn all I could about them.
I have not seen any one here post a 143mph trap speed here yet. Or a 9.33 pass. Lots of dyno charts though. Harrops have potential, but off the shelf not so much. So saying you lose power, that is only off the shelf. We all know what 45cfm is capable of adding to a motors potential. People go apeshit for 20 more in a heads runner. A couple of Rob's runs.
I do not know the Harrop 58mm for the LS7 port first hand, but my 55mm Cathedral port was a sad affair on the flow bench and did a lot of time on the flow bench and I designed my own CNC'd 3D adaptor to match the TFS 245 port shape and angles for that testing. So there are a few of us who do hands on research.
With a throttle shaft I designed and some porting we gained 45 cfm from it. 12 were from my shafts, 10 from removing the step behind the blade and the rest from port matching and opening up the runner.
I have Cathedral port heads, 11.1:1 and made 705 fwhp@6150 and 663ft.lbs@5000, idles at 750rpm and was with a older smallish 1 7/8 header with no merge collector, it has a 2" with a merge from Kooks now, so it should pick up a few hp. At least I hope it does. Nothing special, but I like it.
http://www.streetfire.net/video/ls7-455-with-a-harrop-part-2_2290861.htm
Now, to the people who say they have never seen a quick ITB, here is one running 143mph in the traps back in 2009 with a 388 ci motor. Well set up they can fly, this is a cathedral port as well! Rob's intake had more work done than mine, and I think he shifted at 9k. Just going off memory, this was 5 years ago. I spent a lot of time on the phone with Rob to learn all I could about them.
I have not seen any one here post a 143mph trap speed here yet. Or a 9.33 pass. Lots of dyno charts though. Harrops have potential, but off the shelf not so much. So saying you lose power, that is only off the shelf. We all know what 45cfm is capable of adding to a motors potential. People go apeshit for 20 more in a heads runner. A couple of Rob's runs.
09-11-2014, 09:41 AM
#70
I have only seen the Harrop perform about like that test usually as well or worse in "as-is" form John. The one that say Roberto used on his bigger 468 had like 5 pounds of metal removed from the base to match up to the heads he had at that time and it was a lot different story but in "as-is" form the cathedral port Harrop at least is tiny!
I don't really know how much CSA these LS7 type variants they ran had in the test they did at the port manifold interface? They never said and there were no pictures of how well ports lined up or fit etc. Maybe they were both big enough there and not so limited like the cathedral port Harrop was before massive porting? Couldn't really tell.
All real race stuff in unlimited form with no rules runs an ITB type setup all the way up to 5 hp per inch NA F1 stuff so there is no question whatsoever in what setup is best with no compromises. Of course the real world is full of compromises!
Most all American race stuff especially and including drag race stuff is based around carbs as per the rules so that's the type manifolds we have and always see on race stuff. It's not because it's best though it's because you are not allowed to run anything else.
Now whether the actual ITB stuff out there like we see for these LSx deals is absolutely way better than any carb style intakes or even a one big throttle body FAST? That's probably not an easy answer but I don't think so myself. I just wish they made a bigger cross section FAST for these larger engines with a lil shorter runners.
The Harrop is just too damn expensive for 99% of people and then you have to port it as well heavily at least on the old ones which just makes it not really doable for most people. Then there's the other issues of air filters and syncing all those throttle etc.
I don't really know how much CSA these LS7 type variants they ran had in the test they did at the port manifold interface? They never said and there were no pictures of how well ports lined up or fit etc. Maybe they were both big enough there and not so limited like the cathedral port Harrop was before massive porting? Couldn't really tell.
All real race stuff in unlimited form with no rules runs an ITB type setup all the way up to 5 hp per inch NA F1 stuff so there is no question whatsoever in what setup is best with no compromises. Of course the real world is full of compromises!
Most all American race stuff especially and including drag race stuff is based around carbs as per the rules so that's the type manifolds we have and always see on race stuff. It's not because it's best though it's because you are not allowed to run anything else.
Now whether the actual ITB stuff out there like we see for these LSx deals is absolutely way better than any carb style intakes or even a one big throttle body FAST? That's probably not an easy answer but I don't think so myself. I just wish they made a bigger cross section FAST for these larger engines with a lil shorter runners.
The Harrop is just too damn expensive for 99% of people and then you have to port it as well heavily at least on the old ones which just makes it not really doable for most people. Then there's the other issues of air filters and syncing all those throttle etc.
FWIW a Kinsler I did a cam for(LS7) has 3.17 in^2 at the flange and 3.64 in^2 at the entry. As we both know, most aftermarket casting and most stock casting CNC LS7 heads are 3.6 in^2+ at the flange. Definitely would need some port matching to get it anywhere close.
Agree 100% with what's in bold above. Reese are you listening?
09-11-2014, 12:42 PM
#71
TECH Apprentice
Fast vs Harrod
I must comment on this test between the Fast and the Harrod. First if the dyno operators would have hit the throttle at 2800 like they did with the Fast I think it would have shown better TQ than the Fast up to 3500 rpms. Here is the problem you can not compare the Fast to the Harrod with the same camshaft. The Harrod will need a much different cam than the Fast just like the hi rise single plain manifold will take a different cam than the Fast or the Harrod. That is not a fair test. For a road race car I would much rather have a ITB. Cam'ed correctly it will accelerate better and be faster around the track. You could cam it to make power at high rpms but that is not what you want on a road course.
I must comment on this test between the Fast and the Harrod. First if the dyno operators would have hit the throttle at 2800 like they did with the Fast I think it would have shown better TQ than the Fast up to 3500 rpms. Here is the problem you can not compare the Fast to the Harrod with the same camshaft. The Harrod will need a much different cam than the Fast just like the hi rise single plain manifold will take a different cam than the Fast or the Harrod. That is not a fair test. For a road race car I would much rather have a ITB. Cam'ed correctly it will accelerate better and be faster around the track. You could cam it to make power at high rpms but that is not what you want on a road course.
09-11-2014, 12:55 PM
#72
http://www.racingsprings.com/Dual-Springs/sku/174
Look at the 1237X and 1238X. Both solid roller springs that cover a huge application market for solid roller setups.
Look at the 1237X and 1238X. Both solid roller springs that cover a huge application market for solid roller setups.
09-14-2014, 10:34 AM
#76
If someone wants to send me a fully ported ITB set-up with a cam recommendation that works I'd be happy to buy the cam and since I have unlimited dyno time at my disposal so I would use all of my time and labor free to prove and provide the results!
No worries!
JOHN B thanks 4 the IDEA.......
09-15-2014, 08:13 AM
#78
My motor/intake is Cathedral port, so no help there.
One major reason I picked what I have when I started 4 years ago was emissions here in Ontario, Canada. We had to have every 5 year or older car dyno'd and sniffed at idle and 35 mph. Most modded cars failed the idle.
My ITB build we used a Single plane and carb for break in. The 256/264 650"/650" 110 +4 would not idle below 1250 and still loped lots.
Harrop on the same motor a week later, 750 rpmidle with no lope, it should go lower but too much air gets by the 8 blades to pull it lower. Throttle response is quite hyper with all the blades being 7-8" away from the intake valve for every cylinder and very controllable, made a big difference to the cars handling vs my previous FAST 90 on my 412ci LS2.
I like the idea of being somewhat stealthy too. If a cop or MOE(Ministry of the Environment) pulls beside with my big Green Cats and mild idle. I should not get a 2nd look.
It matters a little less now. This year the dumped the dynos and went to the OBDII test, which is so funny on mine. Stock computer is there to run ABS, Security and ignition. BS3 runs the motor. So they can read a perfectly clean out put from the Stock PCM now. The still do road side sniffer checks.
The emission laws up here have big fines to go with them and I hate being treated like a street racing punk, so I preferred to have my iron in a velvet glove, so to speak and the handling bonus.
09-15-2014, 10:10 PM
#80
