Gears & Axles - whiine new 373

Just got a set of 3.73 gears from motive installed today. Moved from stock 3.23's . I'm getting a little whine when decelerating. Is this normal? Any tricks to quiet this down a bit or does it go away a little with time. Also is a tune required after this mod. Feels like I lost a little low end power. Any help willl be great.

who installed them? doesnt sound like they installed them properly.im in fort wort also.curious to know who installed them.

sounds like the backlash is off a bit. was there a measurement and runout check done when the gears were installed?

I would say pinion depth is set wrong. SOMETIMES the whine will go away after the gears have worn down some. I wouldn't bet on it though.

yeah from what the mechanic said they where measured correctly as far as backlash and pinion depth. I have read that there is a "break in period" is this true. I only drove it home, about three miles from the shop. Should i change fluid after a certain amount of miles ?

The break in period consists of the first heat cycle, maybe two. But of course your mechanic is going to tell you everything was in spec. He isn't going to bash his own work haha

Isn't that the truth lol. I was expecting a little whine with this mod and its not unbearable just a different ride i guess.

Isn't that the truth lol. I was expecting a little whine with this mod and its not unbearable just a different ride i guess.

Most of the time the whine will only get worse. Take it back to the guy that installed it and make them check it.

Al 95 Z28

Just got a set of 3.73 gears from motive installed today. Moved from stock 3.23's . I'm getting a little whine when decelerating. Is this normal? Any tricks to quiet this down a bit or does it go away a little with time. Also is a tune required after this mod. Feels like I lost a little low end power. Any help willl be great.

Do you still have the 3.23 gears and is there any wear? If not I might be interested, as I am switching from 3.73 gears back to 3.23.

FWIW after I switched from 3.23 to 3.73 mine whined a little bit too, at around 50 mph. Everything was replaced, bearings , races, the works. Of course the installer said everything was set to spec.

He blamed it on my Spohn floor mounted TA (torque arm). But - it didn't whine with the 3.23 gears and with the same Spohn floor mounted TA before the switch.

Do you have an aftermarket TA or still have the stock TA?

As for me - should I bite the bullet and buy new Motive 3.23 gears.

Note: the way I see it, the car when I bought it was stock and the rear end didn't whine. So you pay someone to change gears and then it whines - my Moser is the same way - sounds like the 52 chevy truck I used to drive when I was a kid. Absolutely annoying to drive.

Whine on decel means the gear lash is to loose. Whine on the acel is when the lash is to tight. I believe that's thats the situation.

I also heard that Yukon and American Axle Manufacturing are the gears to buy for quiet operation. A little more initially but worth the investment. Also some of those gears are noisy by design. Alot of those gears are made of very hard metal alloys and will make noise regardless. These magazine order gears are just that.

Mine are whining and just installed couple days ago (motive 3.73)

Yeah mine whine a bit with decelaration. When i take my foot off the gas they have a little howl in them. Harder material could be understood I guess. I am running the stock torque arm and I heard nothing from my stock 3.23 but then again those gears where 17 yrs old plenty of wear on them . gonna run them for a few more miles see what happens. It's always something....:engarde:

I installed summit 4.10 in my car and no whine, go tight on the lash and you'll be good.

Most of the time the whine will only get worse.

I agree with this. However, I've built a ton of rear ends and some of them just have some noise. The same installer can then turn out a rear end that's dead silent. Its a tricky deal. I would not really make it an issue (with the installer) just get used to the noise. Did you install the blue or orange box Motives?

I agree with this. However, I've built a ton of rear ends and some of them just have some noise. The same installer can then turn out a rear end that's dead silent. Its a tricky deal. I would not really make it an issue (with the installer) just get used to the noise. Did you install the blue or orange box Motives?

Same here. I wasted a lot of time on a 10 bolt I put 4.11's in, before I ever even moved it. No matter what I did the pattern would not come out right. I checked everything. So I knew up front it would be noisy and it didn't let me down:) It was in a V8 Pontiac Sunbird. When I had my shop I worked on lots of rear ends some guy put gears in that were noisy because of improper set up. I can count the one that I could fix without changing gears on one hand and have a few fingers left. If it's driven more than about 50 miles it's gone. Most were guys that just replaced the gears and used whatever shims were originally in there and expected it to work. And, sometimes it does.

Al 95 Z28

Same here. I wasted a lot of time on a 10 bolt I put 4.11's in, before I ever even moved it. No matter what I did the pattern would not come out right. I checked everything. So I knew up front it would be noisy and it didn't let me down:) It was in a V8 Pontiac Sunbird. When I had my shop I worked on lots of rear ends some guy put gears in that were noisy because of improper set up. I can count the one that I could fix without changing gears on one hand and have a few fingers left. If it's driven more than about 50 miles it's gone. Most were guys that just replaced the gears and used whatever shims were originally in there and expected it to work. And, sometimes it does.

Al 95 Z28

Are you saying that you can ruin the gears in less than 50 miles if the pinion depth isn't set right?

I will have the rear end replaced at a shop where it has a lift where you can drive the car with it on the lift with suspension loaded. With that type of lift is it easier for the installer to get it right, or does it have to be on the ground and tested in order to hear whine?

When the installer installed my Moser, no one ever told me that we had to heat cycle the gears. It was on the dyno for a few runs, and then we drove it home from Indiana to Kansas.

Same for the installer who reinstalled my 3.42 gears in the Moser. They installed the gears and I drove it back home from Ok to Kansas without any heat cycling.

I believe the box was orange and black why do u ask> ?

Are you saying that you can ruin the gears in less than 50 miles if the pinion depth isn't set right?

No I said if the gearset is not set up correctly, pinion depth or ring gear placement. It depends on how far it's off. Most guys put a different gear in the car then go out and run the crap out of it to see what a difference it made. If the contact area is small it will gall the gears and quick. If you look through this section you'll notice this problem comes up about every day. 90% of what I see on gear problems are directly caused by a bad set up. It's not as easy as a lot of people think. The normal person has no idea that you shouldn't reuse the crush sleeve or even the pinion nut. You can't hammer in the side shims and so on. Then there is the fact that the pinion shim is under the rear bearing and to make a change everything has to come apart. Everything, the carrier has to come out, pinion has to come out and so on.

The 9" Ford is about the easiest rear to set up. A real Dana about the hardest. Why does that matter? Because most will just say it's close enough, because it's a lot of work to change it. With a Ford you can change pinion depth without much work, same for side to side ring gear adjustments and carrier preload. So you'er more likely to do it.

Al 95 Z28 w/S60

I believe the box was orange and black why do u ask> ?

I just ordered Motive ring pinion and they told me the Orange and Black box is a better gear and it is more expensive than the blue box.

Whether that is accurate ???? Sometimes sales will tell you anything even though one part number might not be any better than the cheaper part number.

No I said if the gearset is not set up correctly, pinion depth or ring gear placement. It depends on how far it's off. Most guys put a different gear in the car then go out and run the crap out of it to see what a difference it made. If the contact area is small it will gall the gears and quick. If you look through this section you'll notice this problem comes up about every day. 90% of what I see on gear problems are directly caused by a bad set up. It's not as easy as a lot of people think. The normal person has no idea that you shouldn't reuse the crush sleeve or even the pinion nut. You can't hammer in the side shims and so on. Then there is the fact that the pinion shim is under the rear bearing and to make a change everything has to come apart. Everything, the carrier has to come out, pinion has to come out and so on.

The 9" Ford is about the easiest rear to set up. A real Dana about the hardest. Why does that matter? Because most will just say it's close enough, because it's a lot of work to change it. With a Ford you can change pinion depth without much work, same for side to side ring gear adjustments and carrier preload. So you'er more likely to do it.

Al 95 Z28 w/S60

So what you are saying is that I might have to stand and watch them to make sure they don't cut corners. This is what makes us so leary of trusting any shop to do what is necessary.

For exampe: the service manager actually told me it was not necessary to change the crush sleeve. They did warranty work and I asked why I didn't see the crush sleeve as part of the parts replaced.

Btw, the rearend self destructed 500 miles before warranty ran out at 36000. I put less than 200 miles of their warrantly work for a leaky pinion seal and pinion bearing.

Of course, then it gets down to them not wanting a customer telling them how to do their job. You can't win.

After setting up my own gears, I can tell you it's a long process. I wouldnt doubt at all a mechanic would be cutting corners for "good enough" to save time.

BTW any quality gear set TELLS YOU what to set the backlash and pinion depth too. Don't go by the recommendation of LS1tech members to "tighten it up" or run more backlash. Follow the instructions. Every gear set is slightly different.

I have richmonds in mine and dead silent.

Whine on decel means the gear lash is to loose. Whine on the acel is when the lash is to tight. I believe that's thats the situation.

Pinion depth issues can also cause accel/decel sensitive whining. You have a fair amount of room to play with lash usually once pinion depth has been set properly.

I also heard that Yukon and American Axle Manufacturing are the gears to buy for quiet operation. A little more initially but worth the investment. Also some of those gears are noisy by design. Alot of those gears are made of very hard metal alloys and will make noise regardless. These magazine order gears are just that.

Rumor. In school I set up probably 25 rear ends from 10 bolts to 9" using many different manufacturers and never once did I have one whine haha

Are you saying that you can ruin the gears in less than 50 miles if the pinion depth isn't set right?

This is possible. Pinion depth is one of the most important things to get right when setting up the rear end.

So what you are saying is that I might have to stand and watch them to make sure they don't cut corners. This is what makes us so leary of trusting any shop to do what is necessary.

For exampe: the service manager actually told me it was not necessary to change the crush sleeve. They did warranty work and I asked why I didn't see the crush sleeve as part of the parts replaced.

Btw, the rearend self destructed 500 miles before warranty ran out at 36000. I put less than 200 miles of their warrantly work for a leaky pinion seal and pinion bearing.

Of course, then it gets down to them not wanting a customer telling them how to do their job. You can't win.

You absolutely should change the crush sleeve. Find a service manual and read it. Your local library might have something that will help. Do not cut corners, the gears and the labor are expensive. Have it done right. Find a real rear end shop, it's worth the extra effort.

Al 95 Z28

First off any good diff rebuilder would never use a crush sleeve. Every aspect of a gear change must be perfect. The gears are patterned on a GLEASON MACHINE to run at specific settings. If that new final drive is making NOISE it is not set up correctly. Coast side noise is normally caused by pinion depth. But their are several settings that must be set correctly. Bearing pre-load pinion depth and carrier bearing pre-load must be set correctly. If all these this is on the money the gears will run quiet. Gears that are making noise means they are set up incorrectly.

Pinion pre load must be checked

http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/002-69.jpg

All bearings must be replaced

http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/007-11.jpg

Backlash must be correct as well as run out

http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/002-31.jpg

Never use a crush sleeve. This S10 front diff is from my TYPHOON they do not make a crush sleeve eliminator for this diff. So i made one from scratch. Never use a crush sleeve

http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/005-20.jpg

Also the ring gear must be pulled on to the carrier evenly. This is how it is dun

http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/007-15.jpg

Store bought eliminator.
http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/002-Copy.jpg

Everything has to be torqued to speck. And never ever use aftermarket bearings races or seals. Factory only for best results. This is from years of experience. Timken bearings are a must. They are the best bearings on the market. And they have the proper number of pillar counts.

http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/010-6.jpg

Proper back lash is critical. This is a ford 8.8 set at .006 and is the loosest i set a diff. Normally i set them at .002-.003 for high performance usage.

http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/001-60.jpg

Everything you say sounds reasonsable.

That being the case why does a company such a Moser send some product out to the buying public that whines? It defies logic to sell a product where some of the rear ends whine.

I've bought used cars, and new cars, used trucks, and new trucks and none of them had rear ends that whined. My Ranger has 160,000 miles, it doesn't whine. My Camaro with less than 5000 miles on the Moser rearend has whined since it was installed new from Moser.

No reply necessary - just ranting.

Rear gears should never wine PERIOD i dont care who sets them up. Gm has all different rear axle options in cars and trucks from the factory and they do not wine. I have set up hundreds of 9 inch fords with all different ratios and they are as quiet AS A CHURCH MOUSE AS THEY SHOULD BE.They are not designed to wine from the factory. But some of my friends that use aftermarket gears tell me they have a slight wine. I find it difficult to understand why. With hundresd of different diffs that i have built i have never had a wine when set up properly. Rear axle tools cost a fortune and most mechanics do not have the proper tools or setup experiance to do final drives. Just saying

Everything you say sounds reasonsable.

That being the case why does a company such a Moser send some product out to the buying public that whines? It defies logic to sell a product where some of the rear ends whine.

I've bought used cars, and new cars, used trucks, and new trucks and none of them had rear ends that whined. My Ranger has 160,000 miles, it doesn't whine. My Camaro with less than 5000 miles on the Moser rearend has whined since it was installed new from Moser.

No reply necessary - just ranting.

One reason is the torque arm amplifies any noise the rear end does make. As stated 1,000 times in this forum, setting up a rear end is not as easy as some would lead you to believe. Takes a lot of knowledge and you can't quit when it's close. It has to be perfect.

I do not agree whit the poster that said you should never use a crush sleeve. But that's my OPINION. Eliminating the crush sleeve on a 10 or 12 bolt is not easy, and also not tremendously difficult. It's just another step that you have to remove and install the pinion gear. And if you have to change the pinion depth shim, you have to adjust your crush sleeve eliminator. The factory's used crush sleeves in a hell of a lot of rear ends. 9" Fords are different, and much easier to pick the right shims. Real Dana's are just a complete bitch to set up, period. My advice to anyone that's thinking of replacing rear end gears is to read ALL the noisy rear end posts first.

Al 95 Z28

One reason is the torque arm amplifies any noise the rear end does make. As stated 1,000 times in this forum, setting up a rear end is not as easy as some would lead you to believe. Takes a lot of knowledge and you can't quit when it's close. It has to be perfect.

I do not agree whit the poster that said you should never use a crush sleeve. But that's my OPINION. Eliminating the crush sleeve on a 10 or 12 bolt is not easy, and also not tremendously difficult. It's just another step that you have to remove and install the pinion gear. And if you have to change the pinion depth shim, you have to adjust your crush sleeve eliminator. The factory's used crush sleeves in a hell of a lot of rear ends. 9" Fords are different, and much easier to pick the right shims. Real Dana's are just a complete bitch to set up, period. My advice to anyone that's thinking of replacing rear end gears is to read ALL the noisy rear end posts first.

Al 95 Z28




When adjusting the pinion depth it has nothing to do with the crush sleeve settings. The depth setting is on the other side of the inner races. Running a crush sleeve on a high performance rear axle is looking for trouble. Reason being the pinion nut can back off and they do. Running a solid sleeve will eliminate this condition. Also if down the road a pinion seal replacement becomes necessary it can be dun without installing a new crush sleeve. The info you just gave out is totally incorrect and that is why people have final drives that WINE. You are incorrect about pinion depth and crush sleeve dimensions. They are totally different and one does not effect the other!!! By the way it is much easier to set up pinion load with a solid crush sleeve. Using a stock crush sleeve is much harder and by the way factory rear drives now come stock with a solid crush sleeve from the factory. Also the 7.5 / 7.6 / 8.5 / 8.6 GM and also Fords 8.8 Ring and pinion come in two configurations OLD 5 CUT AND NEW 2 CUT. Your pattern will be different between the two gear sets. The DANA is no different than any other rear drive. They are by no means harder to set up THAT IS JUST NONSENSE AND NOT TRUE!!! Thank You

I believe the box was orange and black why do u ask> ?

Ive installed multiple sets of Motives. The Orange boxes have always given me some kind of noise. The blues have always been silent. Same tools, same installer. Go figure.

When adjusting the pinion depth it has nothing to do with the crush sleeve settings. The depth setting is on the other side of the inner races. Running a crush sleeve on a high performance rear axle is looking for trouble. Reason being the pinion nut can back off and they do. Running a solid sleeve will eliminate this condition. Also if down the road a pinion seal replacement becomes necessary it can be dun without installing a new crush sleeve. The info you just gave out is totally incorrect and that is why people have final drives that WINE. You are incorrect about pinion depth and crush sleeve dimensions. They are totally different and one does not effect the other!!!

Obviously you know about rear ends. You are correct and I'm wrong. Sorry.

Al 95 Z28

No problem just saying Thanks Tom.

Ive installed multiple sets of Motives. The Orange boxes have always given me some kind of noise. The blues have always been silent. Same tools, same installer. Go figure.

WHY?????????????? Please explain this !!!!! What is the GEAR cut difference.

Ive installed multiple sets of Motives. The Orange boxes have always given me some kind of noise. The blues have always been silent. Same tools, same installer. Go figure.

When I asked the difference in prices between the orange box set and the blue box set, the vendor told me the orange box set was more expensive because of the gear cut and less prone to failure. I forget the term used (lapped maybe).

And you are saying the less expensive Blue box set when installed makes less noise. Interesting.

There you go. If the gears are cut on the new pattern they are a little noisier. But not in the coast side. It is like an old M22 MUNCIE. The gear cut is shallower for strength. So they wine. That is the answer.

Below is an example!! Look at the gear cut. I also do manual trannys!! This MD is totally shot

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c209/tfalconier/cdb186a3.jpg

^ Where are you located? Maybe you can set up my gearset for me.

Are you in CANADA???

Yes I am.Sorry for the thread jack OP.

I agree with this. However, I've built a ton of rear ends and some of them just have some noise. The same installer can then turn out a rear end that's dead silent. Its a tricky deal. I would not really make it an issue (with the installer) just get used to the noise. Did you install the blue or orange box Motives?

Yup, its a crap shoot. Some make noise some do not. I have done the same thing, I set up 2 identical 10 bolts, same posi, same Motive 3.89 gear, both gears called for same pinion depth, I used a nice pinion depth tool on both rear ends. One made noise the other didnt. Both had the same pattern too. Even used the same Ratech install kit.

Even used a case spreader, everything by the book.

my motives were installed a year ago, new timken bearings and all, they made a noise after a while, because the pinion seal kept leaking fluid. filled her back up with RP and could not hear her anymore.

so how much do you torque the pinion nut before checking preload?

when no using the crush sleeve I mean

You test the pre-load with 125-130 FT-LBS of torque. Also remember you get a true pre-load reading with a spacer a crush sleeve is always going to give you a wrong pre-load reading. But in most cases it is factored in by the manufacturer. Pre-load is very critical. Also the carrier pre-load is very critical also. And basically no one checks that. Once again setting up a final drive is not something easy. You need special tools and techniques and everything has to be checked and rechecked.

Also the parts have to be checked very closely. Here is a carrier unit from a final drive that went wrong!! The so called rear end specialist missed the fact that the carrier bearing spun on the posi unit housing. This caused a premaaature wear issue and destroyed the final drive. Make sure all parts are inspected closely and miked for clearances including the interference fit of the carrier bearings. THEY ARE NOT ALWAYS IN SPECK!!!

http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/001-88.jpg

how u check carrier pre-load?

how u check carrier pre-load?


Actually i feel it with my fingers. Or by the book you add app .006-.012 to your zero pre-load reading. With a spanner type axle it is zero plus 2 notches. Their are many different specks for different axles. Also below is self explanatory. Maintain you service intervals on that final drive. Frequent oil changes is a good insurance for a quiet running final drive. I have a book on specks that i made over the years for setting up final drives. Every one is different than the next

http://i740.photobucket.com/albums/xx46/proguns/008-Copy.jpg

thanks!

Tom, I really hate to start an argument, but take it from someone who has set up well over a hundred differentials in my life...002 to .003 is WAY to tight on these cars for a street driven vehicle. If you don't believe me, get one nice and hot, then pull the cover and see what you have. I'm actually surprised to see you get away with that.