408 ls2 procharged with methanol timing
03-19-2013, 04:57 PM
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408 ls2 procharged with methanol timing For those running forged ls motors with boost and low compression methanol injection, lingfelter blower cam ... what kind of timing numbers are you getting away with for good results ?
My tuner has it at 29 degrees WOT before the boost and then 24 deg at 2.5 lbs, 22 deg at 4 lbs, 21 deg at 6.5 lbs, 19.5 deg at 9 lbs, and 19 at 12.5 lbs...
Doesnt sound like enough to me but maybe someone will have some input...
My tuner has it at 29 degrees WOT before the boost and then 24 deg at 2.5 lbs, 22 deg at 4 lbs, 21 deg at 6.5 lbs, 19.5 deg at 9 lbs, and 19 at 12.5 lbs...
Doesnt sound like enough to me but maybe someone will have some input...
03-20-2013, 10:07 AM
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Blower is a D3M... very similar to an F1R...
CANT BELIEVE I FORGOT... engine is a forged 8.5:1 motor (low compression) and yes pump gas....
It was making 12.5 psi at 4500 rpm and the belt started slipping... got a new belt on it now but need to take it back to the dyno ....
BEFORE THE SLIP.. at 12.5 psi.. it was making 450 hp and 500 ft lbs on the dyno at 4500 rpm... I thought that was pathetic considering a stock LS7 naturally aspirated makes 550 hp ( I know thats at full rpm but I would think that 12.5 psi at 4500 should have been somewhere near 600 hp. ?? ) or am I just dreaming ? Dyno doesnt lie though ..
So those are good numbers then ? I heard the car its definatley not too much for it and no it wasnt 100 percent meth.. more like 25% ...
Guess it is what it is... AFR looked great.. but Im questioning dyno guy had a little "clip-on" external O2 (which you actaully see fall off in my dyno video at the bottom of the car ) that might have read leaner than what actual was ?? which would make him tune rich ?? ... ..
Well either way I want more power ! lol... but dont know if I should adjust the spark or what ?
How can you tell if your methanol shot is too big ?
CANT BELIEVE I FORGOT... engine is a forged 8.5:1 motor (low compression) and yes pump gas....
It was making 12.5 psi at 4500 rpm and the belt started slipping... got a new belt on it now but need to take it back to the dyno ....
BEFORE THE SLIP.. at 12.5 psi.. it was making 450 hp and 500 ft lbs on the dyno at 4500 rpm... I thought that was pathetic considering a stock LS7 naturally aspirated makes 550 hp ( I know thats at full rpm but I would think that 12.5 psi at 4500 should have been somewhere near 600 hp. ?? ) or am I just dreaming ? Dyno doesnt lie though ..
So those are good numbers then ? I heard the car its definatley not too much for it and no it wasnt 100 percent meth.. more like 25% ...
Guess it is what it is... AFR looked great.. but Im questioning dyno guy had a little "clip-on" external O2 (which you actaully see fall off in my dyno video at the bottom of the car ) that might have read leaner than what actual was ?? which would make him tune rich ?? ... ..
Well either way I want more power ! lol... but dont know if I should adjust the spark or what ?
How can you tell if your methanol shot is too big ?
Last edited by monsterchevylizzard; 03-20-2013 at 10:28 AM.
03-20-2013, 01:28 PM
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I'm a little confused here.
You have a tuner, he has a dyno....and you need to ask on the internet how much timing is safe for your particular build ?
That rings HUGE alarm bells to me. Your tuner has, or should have all the tools and information he needs in order to tune your car safely and to an optimal level for your build.
Nobody on the internet can do that for you better than the person who is actually tuning it with all the important information to hand*
As for the tailpipe wideband, nothing at all wrong with that, if it is done correctly. Obviously it falling out of the tailpipe isnt promising though.
So is there a lack of trust with the tuner ?
And anymore details on the vehicle ? Looks quite interesting.
*That statement does of course assume a level of competence with the tuner.
You have a tuner, he has a dyno....and you need to ask on the internet how much timing is safe for your particular build ?
That rings HUGE alarm bells to me. Your tuner has, or should have all the tools and information he needs in order to tune your car safely and to an optimal level for your build.
Nobody on the internet can do that for you better than the person who is actually tuning it with all the important information to hand*
As for the tailpipe wideband, nothing at all wrong with that, if it is done correctly. Obviously it falling out of the tailpipe isnt promising though.
So is there a lack of trust with the tuner ?
And anymore details on the vehicle ? Looks quite interesting.
*That statement does of course assume a level of competence with the tuner.
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03-20-2013, 01:54 PM
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Im affraid it is true I do not know this tuner very well. And Im sure most tuners are used to people throwing a blower of some sort on an already high compression stock setup and timing/ boost is VERY limited with those applications I understand and maybe hes timid due to having detonated one before....
On the dyno and the first few pulls it was only making 335-350 hp and I was lauging at the tuner no disrepect, but I think he only went that far with it just because I was telling him that didnt make sense for a boosted motor and I could tune it better than that running it down the road guessing at timing numbers .. and he had other customers waiting in line and said to come back some day so he could keep on it... which after some reading may just be what it takes to get it perfect .. this was about a 3.5 hour dyno session.
I came on here because I know someone out there is sitting on a procharger setup with a low compression ls2 motor and knows what their numbers are set at for the kind of power they are making and I just wanted to know if he is even in the ball park or working off of a high compression setup in mind even though most people guard their setup numbers like a dragon guarding gold. thank you for confirming the clip on O2 sensor being OK ... that does make me feel a little better.
On the dyno and the first few pulls it was only making 335-350 hp and I was lauging at the tuner no disrepect, but I think he only went that far with it just because I was telling him that didnt make sense for a boosted motor and I could tune it better than that running it down the road guessing at timing numbers .. and he had other customers waiting in line and said to come back some day so he could keep on it... which after some reading may just be what it takes to get it perfect .. this was about a 3.5 hour dyno session.
I came on here because I know someone out there is sitting on a procharger setup with a low compression ls2 motor and knows what their numbers are set at for the kind of power they are making and I just wanted to know if he is even in the ball park or working off of a high compression setup in mind even though most people guard their setup numbers like a dragon guarding gold. thank you for confirming the clip on O2 sensor being OK ... that does make me feel a little better.
03-20-2013, 02:02 PM
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And yes Dyno's can and do lie.
The biggest difference between your build and others is a lack of intercooler. But then, we dont know what your intake charge temps were like ?
Also, the blower is a bit of an unknown, but if it is comparable to any F1 blower, your power numbers do seem very low. But then...without knowing what other cars dyno at there, it is impossible to say.
I notice another video you commented on, where there is a green car claiming 1000hp with a Maggie blower...that seems a very optimistic reading for such a blower...and your numbers seem low.
So can we trust dynos to give one off results that compare elsewhere ? That's another huge question ( no ). Can we trust a before and after reading on the same dyno ? 100% we can.
I certainly wouldnt say your timing numbers are low, but again, I'm not tuning the car, I dont have any sensor feedback, or knock detection feedback. I wasnt adding timing and seeing how the engine responded on the dyno.
Hopefully the dyno operator was....but that seems as if he wasnt ?
Also, what ecu are you using, and are you speed density, or is there still a MAF in there somewhere ?
If MAF, I'm not sure I'd trust a MAF located so close to the blower discharge.
The biggest difference between your build and others is a lack of intercooler. But then, we dont know what your intake charge temps were like ?
Also, the blower is a bit of an unknown, but if it is comparable to any F1 blower, your power numbers do seem very low. But then...without knowing what other cars dyno at there, it is impossible to say.
I notice another video you commented on, where there is a green car claiming 1000hp with a Maggie blower...that seems a very optimistic reading for such a blower...and your numbers seem low.
So can we trust dynos to give one off results that compare elsewhere ? That's another huge question ( no ). Can we trust a before and after reading on the same dyno ? 100% we can.
I certainly wouldnt say your timing numbers are low, but again, I'm not tuning the car, I dont have any sensor feedback, or knock detection feedback. I wasnt adding timing and seeing how the engine responded on the dyno.
Hopefully the dyno operator was....but that seems as if he wasnt ?
Also, what ecu are you using, and are you speed density, or is there still a MAF in there somewhere ?
If MAF, I'm not sure I'd trust a MAF located so close to the blower discharge.
03-20-2013, 02:13 PM
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Im running big stuff 3 speed density...
Does big stuff 3 have a sensor for detonation ? I dont think Ive seen one ...
And yes Im positive this blower is way more capable than that roots/eaton setup of that size in that other video and psi - psi we both sitting at 13 , and I would think the procharger has less drag on the engine ?
And the tuner did seem rushed and intersted in selling me on comming back for more dyno tunes ... hence the reason why I wasnt sure if he was holding back on timing for more dyno sessions ? ... but he is a long way from me and it takes up my whole day just to get the car to him for a few hours...
Does big stuff 3 have a sensor for detonation ? I dont think Ive seen one ...
And yes Im positive this blower is way more capable than that roots/eaton setup of that size in that other video and psi - psi we both sitting at 13 , and I would think the procharger has less drag on the engine ?
And the tuner did seem rushed and intersted in selling me on comming back for more dyno tunes ... hence the reason why I wasnt sure if he was holding back on timing for more dyno sessions ? ... but he is a long way from me and it takes up my whole day just to get the car to him for a few hours...
Last edited by monsterchevylizzard; 03-20-2013 at 02:41 PM.
03-20-2013, 02:27 PM
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Whether the ecu can detect detonation or not is a moot point. Any decent tuner should be listening to the engine for detonation with suitable equipment.
That equipment can be as little as a few $$ or a few hundred $$
I dont trust knock sensors without verifying manually if there is any knock. Knock sensors pick up background noise far too easily on some engines, so listening yourself is the best option to ensure all is well, and any knock the ecu thinks it is seeing is actually real....or any it doesnt see/hear, is manually prevented.
IMO the best thing you can do on this forum. Is ask for reputable tuners in your area who are familiar with the BS3.
That equipment can be as little as a few $$ or a few hundred $$
I dont trust knock sensors without verifying manually if there is any knock. Knock sensors pick up background noise far too easily on some engines, so listening yourself is the best option to ensure all is well, and any knock the ecu thinks it is seeing is actually real....or any it doesnt see/hear, is manually prevented.
IMO the best thing you can do on this forum. Is ask for reputable tuners in your area who are familiar with the BS3.
