Bare Bones carbed Gen 3
06-07-2008, 03:58 PM
#1
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Bare Bones carbed Gen 3 Alright guys, here is my question. I have read the FAQ, and newb questions here, and nothing of this sort is answered.
Say i purchase an Ls1 longblock, it has no electroics, or sensors with it, i want to run a carbed setup, and install in a bare bones car.
I know Gen I motors, and i have got an Ls1/ls6 book.
When i look at one of these motors, the wiring is overwelming, there all kinds of junk i just dont know if i need or not, knock senors, cams senors, all this crap...
MSD offers this box
http://www.jegs.com/p/MSD/758329/10002/-1/10385
If im reading the description correctly it says all i need is
the coils, crank sensor, MAP sensor and the cam sensor.
So if i get the complete long block, minus anythin electronic, all i need is the coils, crnak sensor, MAP sensor and cam sensor, intake and carb and the motor will run?
I see long/short blocks for sale alot, i just never know what i will need in addition. If i buy a complete pullout, i wouldnt know where to begin with all that crap.
can i just buy a cam sensor (or any other sensor), and stick it in any ol' gen 3 motor?
Say i purchase an Ls1 longblock, it has no electroics, or sensors with it, i want to run a carbed setup, and install in a bare bones car.
I know Gen I motors, and i have got an Ls1/ls6 book.
When i look at one of these motors, the wiring is overwelming, there all kinds of junk i just dont know if i need or not, knock senors, cams senors, all this crap...
MSD offers this box
http://www.jegs.com/p/MSD/758329/10002/-1/10385
If im reading the description correctly it says all i need is
the coils, crank sensor, MAP sensor and the cam sensor.
So if i get the complete long block, minus anythin electronic, all i need is the coils, crnak sensor, MAP sensor and cam sensor, intake and carb and the motor will run?
I see long/short blocks for sale alot, i just never know what i will need in addition. If i buy a complete pullout, i wouldnt know where to begin with all that crap.
can i just buy a cam sensor (or any other sensor), and stick it in any ol' gen 3 motor?
06-07-2008, 05:31 PM
#2
i bought a bare ls1 engine with not much left on it. cam sensor and crank sensor are pretty cheap and i got a set of 8 stock ls coil packs/plug leads for $350 ish. thats all you need to run with an msd 6010 ign box. you can then go for a GM performance carb manifold or the edelbrock. the msd box came with a loom to plug into the sensors in their stock positions and to the coil packs when mounted on the rocker covers. cheap way to get it all running really.
06-08-2008, 12:11 AM
#5
Victor JR intkae - $289
MSD 6010 - $312
01 truck coils and brackets - board member - $60 regularly like $150
crank and cam sensors- already in block (crank sensor is behind starter motor)
Engine fired up the 2nd rotation of the engine scared the hell out of my when i started it. Engine hadnt run it over a year, had it apart during the cam swap on an engine stand. The MSD box is amazing.
The MAP sensor wont do anything if you dont program the MAP table in your MSD graph. You have a graph for basic timing. X axis is RPM, Y axis is degrees advace. Just drag the line graph up at any given RPM to the desired Degree of timing at that rpm. The MAP table is the same exact looking table but it has psig vacuum on the x axis (if i remember right) and the y axis has degrees advance. Say you have a timing table that runs 30 degrees timing above 2000rpm. You're map table has an increase of 10 degrees for like 3psig or something. When you're cruising part throttle yoour total timing will be 40 degrees timing as part throttle low rpm will not detonate as much as WOT high rpm. It improves ecconomy. It also includes the softward for tuning and a serial cable for uploading the tunes. You make the tune on the computer, save it, then upload it to the box. You can also view live readings from the sensors on the MSD box so i have heard but have not tried myself.
The box also include a timing retard wire and a 2 step rev limiter wire. Just add 12v to each to activate the desired degrees retard or max rpm for say nitrous and launches. Whatever you do, do not get the Edelbrock box. It does include a MAP sensor but it ONLY allows you to use the timing pill which MSD box does include but are not required to run. Every pill has over 36 degrees of timing which will more than likley cause pinging at WOT.
If you get a long block you will need a lifter valve cover and such and a oil pan and starter. You dont need the knock sensors that come in the lifter valley on ls1s, but you would need to plug them off.
For your carb you can run a 650 that'd be plenty. I am runing a 750 holley HP, 72 primaries, 76 secondaries, 6.5PV with vacuum secondaries. You will also need to run a vac line from the passenger side valve cover 3/8" vac fitting to a catch can, then run a breather on the hole in the driver side head.
MSD 6010 - $312
01 truck coils and brackets - board member - $60 regularly like $150
crank and cam sensors- already in block (crank sensor is behind starter motor)
Engine fired up the 2nd rotation of the engine scared the hell out of my when i started it. Engine hadnt run it over a year, had it apart during the cam swap on an engine stand. The MSD box is amazing.
The MAP sensor wont do anything if you dont program the MAP table in your MSD graph. You have a graph for basic timing. X axis is RPM, Y axis is degrees advace. Just drag the line graph up at any given RPM to the desired Degree of timing at that rpm. The MAP table is the same exact looking table but it has psig vacuum on the x axis (if i remember right) and the y axis has degrees advance. Say you have a timing table that runs 30 degrees timing above 2000rpm. You're map table has an increase of 10 degrees for like 3psig or something. When you're cruising part throttle yoour total timing will be 40 degrees timing as part throttle low rpm will not detonate as much as WOT high rpm. It improves ecconomy. It also includes the softward for tuning and a serial cable for uploading the tunes. You make the tune on the computer, save it, then upload it to the box. You can also view live readings from the sensors on the MSD box so i have heard but have not tried myself.
The box also include a timing retard wire and a 2 step rev limiter wire. Just add 12v to each to activate the desired degrees retard or max rpm for say nitrous and launches. Whatever you do, do not get the Edelbrock box. It does include a MAP sensor but it ONLY allows you to use the timing pill which MSD box does include but are not required to run. Every pill has over 36 degrees of timing which will more than likley cause pinging at WOT.
If you get a long block you will need a lifter valve cover and such and a oil pan and starter. You dont need the knock sensors that come in the lifter valley on ls1s, but you would need to plug them off.
For your carb you can run a 650 that'd be plenty. I am runing a 750 holley HP, 72 primaries, 76 secondaries, 6.5PV with vacuum secondaries. You will also need to run a vac line from the passenger side valve cover 3/8" vac fitting to a catch can, then run a breather on the hole in the driver side head.
06-08-2008, 10:28 AM
#6
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Victor JR intkae - $289
MSD 6010 - $312
01 truck coils and brackets - board member - $60 regularly like $150
crank and cam sensors- already in block (crank sensor is behind starter motor)
Engine fired up the 2nd rotation of the engine scared the hell out of my when i started it. Engine hadnt run it over a year, had it apart during the cam swap on an engine stand. The MSD box is amazing.
The MAP sensor wont do anything if you dont program the MAP table in your MSD graph. You have a graph for basic timing. X axis is RPM, Y axis is degrees advace. Just drag the line graph up at any given RPM to the desired Degree of timing at that rpm. The MAP table is the same exact looking table but it has psig vacuum on the x axis (if i remember right) and the y axis has degrees advance. Say you have a timing table that runs 30 degrees timing above 2000rpm. You're map table has an increase of 10 degrees for like 3psig or something. When you're cruising part throttle yoour total timing will be 40 degrees timing as part throttle low rpm will not detonate as much as WOT high rpm. It improves ecconomy. It also includes the softward for tuning and a serial cable for uploading the tunes. You make the tune on the computer, save it, then upload it to the box. You can also view live readings from the sensors on the MSD box so i have heard but have not tried myself.
The box also include a timing retard wire and a 2 step rev limiter wire. Just add 12v to each to activate the desired degrees retard or max rpm for say nitrous and launches. Whatever you do, do not get the Edelbrock box. It does include a MAP sensor but it ONLY allows you to use the timing pill which MSD box does include but are not required to run. Every pill has over 36 degrees of timing which will more than likley cause pinging at WOT.
If you get a long block you will need a lifter valve cover and such and a oil pan and starter. You dont need the knock sensors that come in the lifter valley on ls1s, but you would need to plug them off.
For your carb you can run a 650 that'd be plenty. I am runing a 750 holley HP, 72 primaries, 76 secondaries, 6.5PV with vacuum secondaries. You will also need to run a vac line from the passenger side valve cover 3/8" vac fitting to a catch can, then run a breather on the hole in the driver side head.
MSD 6010 - $312
01 truck coils and brackets - board member - $60 regularly like $150
crank and cam sensors- already in block (crank sensor is behind starter motor)
Engine fired up the 2nd rotation of the engine scared the hell out of my when i started it. Engine hadnt run it over a year, had it apart during the cam swap on an engine stand. The MSD box is amazing.
The MAP sensor wont do anything if you dont program the MAP table in your MSD graph. You have a graph for basic timing. X axis is RPM, Y axis is degrees advace. Just drag the line graph up at any given RPM to the desired Degree of timing at that rpm. The MAP table is the same exact looking table but it has psig vacuum on the x axis (if i remember right) and the y axis has degrees advance. Say you have a timing table that runs 30 degrees timing above 2000rpm. You're map table has an increase of 10 degrees for like 3psig or something. When you're cruising part throttle yoour total timing will be 40 degrees timing as part throttle low rpm will not detonate as much as WOT high rpm. It improves ecconomy. It also includes the softward for tuning and a serial cable for uploading the tunes. You make the tune on the computer, save it, then upload it to the box. You can also view live readings from the sensors on the MSD box so i have heard but have not tried myself.
The box also include a timing retard wire and a 2 step rev limiter wire. Just add 12v to each to activate the desired degrees retard or max rpm for say nitrous and launches. Whatever you do, do not get the Edelbrock box. It does include a MAP sensor but it ONLY allows you to use the timing pill which MSD box does include but are not required to run. Every pill has over 36 degrees of timing which will more than likley cause pinging at WOT.
If you get a long block you will need a lifter valve cover and such and a oil pan and starter. You dont need the knock sensors that come in the lifter valley on ls1s, but you would need to plug them off.
For your carb you can run a 650 that'd be plenty. I am runing a 750 holley HP, 72 primaries, 76 secondaries, 6.5PV with vacuum secondaries. You will also need to run a vac line from the passenger side valve cover 3/8" vac fitting to a catch can, then run a breather on the hole in the driver side head.
Is that motor running and driving? that victor Jrs RPM range is 3500-7000 on summit, how does it perform in city driving?
06-08-2008, 11:49 AM
#7
The link in my sig has videos of it running when i first started it up. Thats running on the #1 timing pill, no map, and a carb leaking fuel everywhere, and the engine having sat in my dining room with no oil for a year. i have since rebuilt the carb, made a tune for it, installed a map (any 3 wire map works, 1-3bar just select it in the options mine came from a 2000 v6 grand prix), and it runs much better.
I have not driven it yet actually. I was planning on just having the new yoke i have put on and my driveshaft shortened which would have been about $80 but have since decided to go with a Dennys nitrous ready driveshaft because i will be spraying a 150+ on this setup and dont really feel like losing my tailshaft when my driveshaft breaks. I'll be running 30" MT Et street radials with my setup so i will have traction all the time and i want to be absolutely sure my driveline isnt going to go on me.
RPM range is what summit says it is. That's about what my cams rpm range is as well. The carb intakes are considered short intake runners. The LSx intakes are considered long runner intakes. When you select a cam you can go with a little larger duration than the EFI setup, a tighter LSA like 109-110, and higher lift to benift from the manifold. That's what i have been reaserching although i have no dynographs to prove it.
You will definately need a 3000 stall atleast if you're going to run the intake and maybe more depending on the cam you select. What is this engine going in? My goal for my car is around 2900lb but will be a DD so that's why i went with a vac secondary carb.
The map is primarily for ecconomy. If you just leave your MAP timing table all at zero you can run it with no MAP just fine or just run it with a pill and it will run just fine, might ping. MAP is optional although i would reccomend it if you will be driving anywhere on the street. It will keep your plugs cleaner (fouling less) and waste less fuel. Not a huge ammount but the more optimal you make your engine at idle and part throttle the better its going to perform consistently.
I would also highly reccomend a wideband 02 sensor for tuning the carb. Something like an LM1 logging setup. It's not neccessary at all but it would make tuning your carb and maintaining your setup a thousand times easier.
I have not driven it yet actually. I was planning on just having the new yoke i have put on and my driveshaft shortened which would have been about $80 but have since decided to go with a Dennys nitrous ready driveshaft because i will be spraying a 150+ on this setup and dont really feel like losing my tailshaft when my driveshaft breaks. I'll be running 30" MT Et street radials with my setup so i will have traction all the time and i want to be absolutely sure my driveline isnt going to go on me.
RPM range is what summit says it is. That's about what my cams rpm range is as well. The carb intakes are considered short intake runners. The LSx intakes are considered long runner intakes. When you select a cam you can go with a little larger duration than the EFI setup, a tighter LSA like 109-110, and higher lift to benift from the manifold. That's what i have been reaserching although i have no dynographs to prove it.
You will definately need a 3000 stall atleast if you're going to run the intake and maybe more depending on the cam you select. What is this engine going in? My goal for my car is around 2900lb but will be a DD so that's why i went with a vac secondary carb.
The map is primarily for ecconomy. If you just leave your MAP timing table all at zero you can run it with no MAP just fine or just run it with a pill and it will run just fine, might ping. MAP is optional although i would reccomend it if you will be driving anywhere on the street. It will keep your plugs cleaner (fouling less) and waste less fuel. Not a huge ammount but the more optimal you make your engine at idle and part throttle the better its going to perform consistently.
I would also highly reccomend a wideband 02 sensor for tuning the carb. Something like an LM1 logging setup. It's not neccessary at all but it would make tuning your carb and maintaining your setup a thousand times easier.
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06-09-2008, 10:59 AM
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I'm running the Edelbrock box and Victor Jr on my TA. Never had a single problem and the car runs awesome. I'm running a AED 750 on my motor and a Holley Black pump.
