Thompson Motorsports LS3 issue Resolved by TMS.
02-07-2015, 01:03 AM
#21
I just bought a 2010 Camaro with a Thompson Motorsports engine and a Vortech YSi V7 superchager. Guy I bought the car from bought the short block from TMS but used heads and some other parts from a previous LS3 engine he blew out. The engine was 7 months old and still supposedly under TMS warranty. Here's a list of the heads and internals:
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Engine Specs
Thompson Motorsports built 416ci LS3 9.5-1 compression
Balanced and blueprinted
ARP rod bolts
TMS/RPM crank
TMS rods and Diamond pistons -15cc
TMS ring set
High pressure Melling Oil Pump, LS2 timing chain
.612/.612 236/250+4 TMS custom ground cam
ATI damper pulley. Pulley is keyed to the crank.
TMS LS7 lifters, Texas Speed hardened pushrods
The heads have been run through Texas Speeds CNC program to port and polish and allow for the bigger valves. PRC dual springs with titanium retainers and new valve seats. They sit on top GM MLS head gaskets secured with TMS head studs. The lifters are with the Harland Sharp trunion upgrade kit.
East Coast Supercharging 10 rib YSi kit. 3.25 upper pulley. Polished head unit and black brackets. This setup currently makes 11psi, but the blower is capable of 31psi. This is a scavenger style head unit, so it is lubricated by the engine oil. The kit has a front mount air to air intercooler and blow off valve.
Livernois Motorsports Dual Fuel Pump
Injector Dynamics ID1000 injectors
Alky Control dual nozzle methanol injection system. This system is setup to run straight M-1 methanol.
+++++++
I had this car like 1 week but then had a lifter fail and take out the whole block. My mechanic took the valve cover off and saw a bent bolt on one of the rockers. Thompson said that a failed lifter wouldn't cause a bent rocker bolt so the fault was with the bolt or install. The bad bolt caused the spring not to make enough force to keep lifter in contact with the cam. Causing the lifter to shatter. Mind you the motor must have been at about 4500-5000 rpm when it happened. Therefore no warranty because the previous owner provided and installed that part.
So I paid to have the motor shipped to TX and they rebuild the whole thing. New block, new crank and bearings, cam, TMS LS2/LS7 lifters, rods, valves, valve springs. I pay to have them assemble everything as a long block. Specifically for warranty issues. All my mechanic at Izzy Performance here in Los Angeles needs to do is mount engine, fuel, intake and exhaust. Thompson Motorsports gave me pretty heavy discounts on the parts and labor, which was pretty cool of them since I couldn't argue warranty. Still it costs me over $4k with shipping.
The motor gets hereafter a month or so and I have it installed, broken in, and tuned. Dynojet tune has it at 810hp. Cool. Izzy tells me they could probably get it to 850hp but 810 is more than I will need on the streets.
2 weeks after I get it from Izzy, I'm driving on freeway and hear a ticking noise. I'm thinking maybe the headers gasket is leaking since the ticks match the revs. Take it to Izzy Performance and no luck. Its internal to the engine. But by now its got a ticking noise and a random clank. I call Thompson and they have me check a few things, like the flywheel and running the engine with belts off. That's not it. So now Thompson says send it to them.
I'm not sure if it's bad luck or if something is off with this engine/cam/crank/valve/piston setup. Hopefully there isn't another reason why this wouldn't be covered under warranty. I can't see it being a detonation issue since I haven't had car that long, the methanol reservoir was almost full, I wasn't gunning it when the problem started, it has quality injectors and fuel pump, and the car was tuned by a shop specializing in LS engines.
Let's see how Thompson handles this when they get the motor. They have a great rep, and I'm hoping they come through for me. If anybody else has had something similar please post.
+++++++++
Engine Specs
Thompson Motorsports built 416ci LS3 9.5-1 compression
Balanced and blueprinted
ARP rod bolts
TMS/RPM crank
TMS rods and Diamond pistons -15cc
TMS ring set
High pressure Melling Oil Pump, LS2 timing chain
.612/.612 236/250+4 TMS custom ground cam
ATI damper pulley. Pulley is keyed to the crank.
TMS LS7 lifters, Texas Speed hardened pushrods
The heads have been run through Texas Speeds CNC program to port and polish and allow for the bigger valves. PRC dual springs with titanium retainers and new valve seats. They sit on top GM MLS head gaskets secured with TMS head studs. The lifters are with the Harland Sharp trunion upgrade kit.
East Coast Supercharging 10 rib YSi kit. 3.25 upper pulley. Polished head unit and black brackets. This setup currently makes 11psi, but the blower is capable of 31psi. This is a scavenger style head unit, so it is lubricated by the engine oil. The kit has a front mount air to air intercooler and blow off valve.
Livernois Motorsports Dual Fuel Pump
Injector Dynamics ID1000 injectors
Alky Control dual nozzle methanol injection system. This system is setup to run straight M-1 methanol.
+++++++
I had this car like 1 week but then had a lifter fail and take out the whole block. My mechanic took the valve cover off and saw a bent bolt on one of the rockers. Thompson said that a failed lifter wouldn't cause a bent rocker bolt so the fault was with the bolt or install. The bad bolt caused the spring not to make enough force to keep lifter in contact with the cam. Causing the lifter to shatter. Mind you the motor must have been at about 4500-5000 rpm when it happened. Therefore no warranty because the previous owner provided and installed that part.
So I paid to have the motor shipped to TX and they rebuild the whole thing. New block, new crank and bearings, cam, TMS LS2/LS7 lifters, rods, valves, valve springs. I pay to have them assemble everything as a long block. Specifically for warranty issues. All my mechanic at Izzy Performance here in Los Angeles needs to do is mount engine, fuel, intake and exhaust. Thompson Motorsports gave me pretty heavy discounts on the parts and labor, which was pretty cool of them since I couldn't argue warranty. Still it costs me over $4k with shipping.
The motor gets hereafter a month or so and I have it installed, broken in, and tuned. Dynojet tune has it at 810hp. Cool. Izzy tells me they could probably get it to 850hp but 810 is more than I will need on the streets.
2 weeks after I get it from Izzy, I'm driving on freeway and hear a ticking noise. I'm thinking maybe the headers gasket is leaking since the ticks match the revs. Take it to Izzy Performance and no luck. Its internal to the engine. But by now its got a ticking noise and a random clank. I call Thompson and they have me check a few things, like the flywheel and running the engine with belts off. That's not it. So now Thompson says send it to them.
I'm not sure if it's bad luck or if something is off with this engine/cam/crank/valve/piston setup. Hopefully there isn't another reason why this wouldn't be covered under warranty. I can't see it being a detonation issue since I haven't had car that long, the methanol reservoir was almost full, I wasn't gunning it when the problem started, it has quality injectors and fuel pump, and the car was tuned by a shop specializing in LS engines.
Let's see how Thompson handles this when they get the motor. They have a great rep, and I'm hoping they come through for me. If anybody else has had something similar please post.
02-07-2015, 01:09 AM
#22
Look, **** breaking is part of the game. Things don't always go the way you planned, and you have to act accordingly.
Right after building an entire car, I had a lifter fail on me 5 minutes after start-up. I understand that no one wants to redo things that they just did, but some times **** happens and you have to deal with it.
Right after building an entire car, I had a lifter fail on me 5 minutes after start-up. I understand that no one wants to redo things that they just did, but some times **** happens and you have to deal with it.
02-07-2015, 05:27 PM
#23
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This exactly why I posted this thread. Some good info from JakeFusion and LLLosingit. Appreciate the info and will definitely use it for the rebuild. After I heard the ticking I still got it to my mechanic the next day, thinking it was just a gasket leak. But when he checked it out there was now a random clank. Pretty obvious something got loose inside.
Of course along with the helpful info I get bashed because people think I'm bashing TMS. I'm not trying to do that. I think their customer service is excellent.
On the first rebuild Kyle and I spoke and I asked him to also recommend to me anything else he thinks would be good to change/upgrade along with the parts that were already there. He recommended stainless valves. cool lets do it. He upgraded the valve springs. Cool lets do it. He told me that it looks like the crankshaft got a little nicked up by debris when the lifter shattered and he changed it out FOR FREE. So get it straight guys, this is not a bash post. This is me wanting some rebuild advice.
Also, just because I'm not a SAE mechanic doesn't mean I don't understand the basics of how this LS3 engine operates and I've read "How to Rebuild GM LS-Series Engines" and "How to Build and Modify GM LS-Series Engines." You have to start somewhere. But for the assembly and details I leave that to the pros.
And yes, Kelebro, I can see failures are just part of the game. I know I'll have to live with them. I just want to learn from them. Definitely very careful about following Kyles instructions. Over the phone he let me know that since this was a rebuild my mechanic could do an easier break in, but I stuck to the 500 mile break in anyway, give or take 50 miles.
Overall, thanks to you guys who have provided me with useful info.
Of course along with the helpful info I get bashed because people think I'm bashing TMS. I'm not trying to do that. I think their customer service is excellent.
On the first rebuild Kyle and I spoke and I asked him to also recommend to me anything else he thinks would be good to change/upgrade along with the parts that were already there. He recommended stainless valves. cool lets do it. He upgraded the valve springs. Cool lets do it. He told me that it looks like the crankshaft got a little nicked up by debris when the lifter shattered and he changed it out FOR FREE. So get it straight guys, this is not a bash post. This is me wanting some rebuild advice.
Also, just because I'm not a SAE mechanic doesn't mean I don't understand the basics of how this LS3 engine operates and I've read "How to Rebuild GM LS-Series Engines" and "How to Build and Modify GM LS-Series Engines." You have to start somewhere. But for the assembly and details I leave that to the pros.
And yes, Kelebro, I can see failures are just part of the game. I know I'll have to live with them. I just want to learn from them. Definitely very careful about following Kyles instructions. Over the phone he let me know that since this was a rebuild my mechanic could do an easier break in, but I stuck to the 500 mile break in anyway, give or take 50 miles.
Overall, thanks to you guys who have provided me with useful info.
02-07-2015, 07:29 PM
#24
Hope it works out for you and they can diagnose the issue.
I agree with the stainless valves on a boosted application. The issue is they weigh quite a bit and it really limits your RPM unless you're willing to go crazy with the valvetrain the support it. The LS7 lifters seem like a miss here, especially if those are 5/16" pushrods.
I will say that tune needs to be reviewed again as well. DynoJets don't provide accurate KR information, so your timing may be too high. If you're on a loaded dyno or datalogging on the street, then that will help a ton.
I agree with the stainless valves on a boosted application. The issue is they weigh quite a bit and it really limits your RPM unless you're willing to go crazy with the valvetrain the support it. The LS7 lifters seem like a miss here, especially if those are 5/16" pushrods.
I will say that tune needs to be reviewed again as well. DynoJets don't provide accurate KR information, so your timing may be too high. If you're on a loaded dyno or datalogging on the street, then that will help a ton.
02-09-2015, 10:08 AM
#25
Let me start by saying I am sure we will be able to work this out for you, I am sorry that you are having any issues.
The first motor as discussed did not have any problems with the short block that was built by us, It had a rocker arm bolt failure(this was explained to us by you and your mechanic). It caused problems throughout the motor that resulted in a broken lifter, wiped camshaft and cracked lifter bore. We did discount the built substantially and built it as a long block. This means WE WILL STAND BEHIND OUR LONG BLOCK. If by some one in a billion chance the same thing has happened it will be covered by TMS. As we discussed in our many conversations it does not sound like that is what is going on. It really sounds to me like a broken piston. I am anticipating we will find that the top of a piston has been damaged based on the noise in the video sent to us, This is not a warrantable item. In any case we will work with you to find a resolution.
OP, As always please keep us informed and let me know if there is any way I can make this an easier process for you. I know no one wants to go through this but I can assure you we will do all we can to make it as painless as possible.
Thank you,
Kyle
972-853-2450
The first motor as discussed did not have any problems with the short block that was built by us, It had a rocker arm bolt failure(this was explained to us by you and your mechanic). It caused problems throughout the motor that resulted in a broken lifter, wiped camshaft and cracked lifter bore. We did discount the built substantially and built it as a long block. This means WE WILL STAND BEHIND OUR LONG BLOCK. If by some one in a billion chance the same thing has happened it will be covered by TMS. As we discussed in our many conversations it does not sound like that is what is going on. It really sounds to me like a broken piston. I am anticipating we will find that the top of a piston has been damaged based on the noise in the video sent to us, This is not a warrantable item. In any case we will work with you to find a resolution.
OP, As always please keep us informed and let me know if there is any way I can make this an easier process for you. I know no one wants to go through this but I can assure you we will do all we can to make it as painless as possible.
Thank you,
Kyle
972-853-2450
02-12-2015, 12:41 PM
#26
Let me start by saying I am sure we will be able to work this out for you, I am sorry that you are having any issues.
The first motor as discussed did not have any problems with the short block that was built by us, It had a rocker arm bolt failure(this was explained to us by you and your mechanic). It caused problems throughout the motor that resulted in a broken lifter, wiped camshaft and cracked lifter bore. We did discount the built substantially and built it as a long block. This means WE WILL STAND BEHIND OUR LONG BLOCK. If by some one in a billion chance the same thing has happened it will be covered by TMS. As we discussed in our many conversations it does not sound like that is what is going on. It really sounds to me like a broken piston. I am anticipating we will find that the top of a piston has been damaged based on the noise in the video sent to us, This is not a warrantable item. In any case we will work with you to find a resolution.
OP, As always please keep us informed and let me know if there is any way I can make this an easier process for you. I know no one wants to go through this but I can assure you we will do all we can to make it as painless as possible.
Thank you,
Kyle
972-853-2450
The first motor as discussed did not have any problems with the short block that was built by us, It had a rocker arm bolt failure(this was explained to us by you and your mechanic). It caused problems throughout the motor that resulted in a broken lifter, wiped camshaft and cracked lifter bore. We did discount the built substantially and built it as a long block. This means WE WILL STAND BEHIND OUR LONG BLOCK. If by some one in a billion chance the same thing has happened it will be covered by TMS. As we discussed in our many conversations it does not sound like that is what is going on. It really sounds to me like a broken piston. I am anticipating we will find that the top of a piston has been damaged based on the noise in the video sent to us, This is not a warrantable item. In any case we will work with you to find a resolution.
OP, As always please keep us informed and let me know if there is any way I can make this an easier process for you. I know no one wants to go through this but I can assure you we will do all we can to make it as painless as possible.
Thank you,
Kyle
972-853-2450
02-19-2015, 10:27 AM
#28
We did get it in and torn down yesterday. There was a trunnion that seized on a rocker. Being that this is the 2nd time you have had a trunnion issue we are going to replace the entire set with factory GM rockers. There is no way to check the trunnion to see if they were assembled properly, Our assumption now is that they were not and this was likely the cause of the first rocker bolt coming loose as well as the tapping now. Due to the load of the seized rocker it put a bit of strain on the lifter and camshaft and scarred them both. We will replace them as well. We are also going to check all of the bearings in the motor for damage from debris. This is not something that could have been foreseen or checked for upon assembly, The rockers were not assembled by TMS and it is apparent that it was done incorrectly. Though this is not a warrantable thing due to the rocker being the cause, we are going to repair the motor free of charge in good faith.
02-19-2015, 10:38 AM
#29
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Damn, that's legit. Good going guys. Its nice to see a company that respects the value of amazing customer service over a few bucks. Stories like this find their way out and it will get more business for you.
02-19-2015, 04:50 PM
#32
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We did get it in and torn down yesterday. There was a trunnion that seized on a rocker. Being that this is the 2nd time you have had a trunnion issue we are going to replace the entire set with factory GM rockers. There is no way to check the trunnion to see if they were assembled properly, Our assumption now is that they were not and this was likely the cause of the first rocker bolt coming loose as well as the tapping now. Due to the load of the seized rocker it put a bit of strain on the lifter and camshaft and scarred them both. We will replace them as well. We are also going to check all of the bearings in the motor for damage from debris. This is not something that could have been foreseen or checked for upon assembly, The rockers were not assembled by TMS and it is apparent that it was done incorrectly. Though this is not a warrantable thing due to the rocker being the cause, we are going to repair the motor free of charge in good faith.
I think a lot of people are being a little hard on the OP. I'm sure we can all relate to how frustrating it can be. Especially after just getting it back together. I'm not saying I agree with everything he said or how he presented it. I'm just saying I get it.
Anyway, thumbs up to Thompson. Certainly looks good for business.
02-24-2015, 11:50 PM
#33
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Clueless First off DietCoke, this is an engine, not a rocket. Seeing as I don't have a clue about this engine, I left it up to the professionals to repair it and reassemble with the heads on, and another professional here in my area to install it. The engine was put together at TMS, explain to me how this is my error on the trunnion failure? The first time I sent it to TMS i asked for the repair and any possible upgrades.
1sick_eg, the first owner installed a Harland Sharp trunnion upgrade kit. Possibly he did it himself. Maybe he pressed the trunnions in too tight, or a c-clip came off, or maybe the washer wasn't placed properly. But I would think that could have been spotted during the rebuild.
Either way, Thank you Kyle for the repair and service going above and beyond.
As a side note, there have been various opinions about whether the needle bearings on factory trunnions pose a danger of coming loose. But I have been told that this is a negligible risk. cross fingers.
1sick_eg, the first owner installed a Harland Sharp trunnion upgrade kit. Possibly he did it himself. Maybe he pressed the trunnions in too tight, or a c-clip came off, or maybe the washer wasn't placed properly. But I would think that could have been spotted during the rebuild.
Either way, Thank you Kyle for the repair and service going above and beyond.
As a side note, there have been various opinions about whether the needle bearings on factory trunnions pose a danger of coming loose. But I have been told that this is a negligible risk. cross fingers.
02-25-2015, 09:27 PM
#35
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First off DietCoke, this is an engine, not a rocket. Seeing as I don't have a clue about this engine, I left it up to the professionals to repair it and reassemble with the heads on, and another professional here in my area to install it. The engine was put together at TMS, explain to me how this is my error on the trunnion failure? The first time I sent it to TMS i asked for the repair and any possible upgrades.
1sick_eg, the first owner installed a Harland Sharp trunnion upgrade kit. Possibly he did it himself. Maybe he pressed the trunnions in too tight, or a c-clip came off, or maybe the washer wasn't placed properly. But I would think that could have been spotted during the rebuild.
Either way, Thank you Kyle for the repair and service going above and beyond.
As a side note, there have been various opinions about whether the needle bearings on factory trunnions pose a danger of coming loose. But I have been told that this is a negligible risk. cross fingers.
1sick_eg, the first owner installed a Harland Sharp trunnion upgrade kit. Possibly he did it himself. Maybe he pressed the trunnions in too tight, or a c-clip came off, or maybe the washer wasn't placed properly. But I would think that could have been spotted during the rebuild.
Either way, Thank you Kyle for the repair and service going above and beyond.
As a side note, there have been various opinions about whether the needle bearings on factory trunnions pose a danger of coming loose. But I have been told that this is a negligible risk. cross fingers.
I agree 100%. Why take the risk when some aftermarket insurance can be had for less than $200? I ran comp trunnions in my last setup. If I had known Brian Tooley had a set, I would have ran them instead. Regardless, I had no issues with mine. Will be runnning a set of Jesel RR once those come in next week.
02-26-2015, 03:31 PM
#36
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trunions Well I asked Kyle about that issue exactly on the needle bearings and I would like to pay for an upgraded trunion set. He assured me that he runs the factory trunnions on his own thousand hp ride so I went with his recommendation.
but that messed up rocker pic is messing with my head. I mean its only like $300-$400 so its not the cost.
I know a trunion uprade from HS looks like was the common denominator on both my issues with this motor, and Kyle recommended the OEMs, so I'm going with the pro.
but that messed up rocker pic is messing with my head. I mean its only like $300-$400 so its not the cost.
I know a trunion uprade from HS looks like was the common denominator on both my issues with this motor, and Kyle recommended the OEMs, so I'm going with the pro.
02-26-2015, 04:26 PM
#37
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Well I asked Kyle about that issue exactly on the needle bearings and I would like to pay for an upgraded trunion set. He assured me that he runs the factory trunnions on his own thousand hp ride so I went with his recommendation.
but that messed up rocker pic is messing with my head. I mean its only like $300-$400 so its not the cost.
I know a trunion uprade from HS looks like was the common denominator on both my issues with this motor, and Kyle recommended the OEMs, so I'm going with the pro.
but that messed up rocker pic is messing with my head. I mean its only like $300-$400 so its not the cost.
I know a trunion uprade from HS looks like was the common denominator on both my issues with this motor, and Kyle recommended the OEMs, so I'm going with the pro.
04-27-2015, 01:37 PM
#38
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Feeling better and better... Been talking with Kyle the last few months about getting my Trans Am revived...everything i have researched makes me believe this is is the shop to get my forged 370 from! Sure sounds like a stand up business!
04-30-2015, 06:20 AM
#39
TECH Addict
We did get it in and torn down yesterday. There was a trunnion that seized on a rocker. Being that this is the 2nd time you have had a trunnion issue we are going to replace the entire set with factory GM rockers. There is no way to check the trunnion to see if they were assembled properly, Our assumption now is that they were not and this was likely the cause of the first rocker bolt coming loose as well as the tapping now. Due to the load of the seized rocker it put a bit of strain on the lifter and camshaft and scarred them both. We will replace them as well. We are also going to check all of the bearings in the motor for damage from debris. This is not something that could have been foreseen or checked for upon assembly, The rockers were not assembled by TMS and it is apparent that it was done incorrectly. Though this is not a warrantable thing due to the rocker being the cause, we are going to repair the motor free of charge in good faith.
05-02-2015, 12:40 PM
#40
Nice to see a shop stand behind their product even though it WASN'T their fault !!