Shownomercy

iTrader: (1)

So the guy churning out hand ported heads is just blindly porting and each head is vastly different? Did not know, thanks for that insight. Here I was thinking they too developed a good port geometry and used foam inserts to replicate it time and time again. Mai bad.

moehorsepower

iTrader: (3)

Has there ever been an LE head failure? All I know is that "EVERY" LE combo I have tuned has a HP & TQ that is flat as a board, No camel hump power there.

leadfoot4

iTrader: (1)

YES, it's repeated "time and time again", and that's the beauty of a CNC ported head.


BUT, BEFORE the "master port" is digitized, there SHOULD be a number of hours spent flow testing and refining the port shape. THAT'S where the cost is, after the equipment is purchased....

E30Speed

Not all heads, mine were assembled with Brian Tooley Racing LT1 Platinum spring kit along with Manley valves. According to both Martin Smallwood at Trick Performance and Brian Tooley, as it stands right now, the BTR springs failure rate is zero; in my book that's damn good quality.

PA94Z

iTrader: (1)

My LE TFS heads came with Comp 943s and tool steel retainers with Manley stainless valves. He doesn't even buy the Trickflows fully assembled, they are bare when he gets them. It's a case by case basis what type of springs are used. I had them flowed by a local shop that does in house porting, and they were very close to advertised. They also made good power up to 7100 in my 383, and the motor shifts 7500/7700 through the lights. Nice heads for sure.

myltwon

iTrader: (1)

Of course there are additional expenses, I was merely stating what the cost would be initially if you want to start using a CNC vs manual.

What brand of CNC vertical mills do they use since you seem to be privy to such information? They port cylinder heads, it's not like they're in the aerospace or medical device industry so I'm not sure why they would need to spend around much more than $150k on a 5 axis Haas or comparable. If they want to spend more than that, its on them because I quickly see a point of a diminishing returns beyond that for their usage.

96capricemgr

iTrader: (1)

Years ago he posted video of the machine in action on YouTube, looking at that it seems to say DMG MORI, video is still there but I wont link because I don't think they are a current vendor so mods might not appreciate. I believe the Newen Valvejob machine was well over $100k alone.

Maybe he could get by with a glorified drill press but he doesn't......

myltwon

iTrader: (1)

So you're comparing a Haas 5 axis VMC to a glorified drill press?

Seems like they run a Deckel Maho, basically a 1/2 a million dollar milling center.

96capricemgr

iTrader: (1)

The drill press comment was more about the valvejob machines available compared to what he runs. Also consider the retail street stuff we are talking about is just a piece of his puzzle.
He put right on his website his 226cc LS6 head port is outdated Daytona Prototype ports.........

BIGCAT7274

X2 i would like to know where are all these failed parts are at. I would bet that there is only a hand full of instances of failures. And as for the power his stuff makes. There performance speaks for itself. Kyle just went 10.7x's n/a with a set of le1's and a baby hyd roller.

Catmaigne

iTrader: (6)

Huh??? Haven't heard much other than an issue with some loose guides and some LE3s with cracks in the ports. Most reviews are positive though.

Why are you comparing BTRs to Nexteks? This is apples to oranges.

The heads in question are LE's ported TFS set and if you look on his website you'll see that $1800 is for those heads with the junk stock springs. Even though the heads are intended for FI apps, the springs that come on them don't have nearly enough seat pressure for that sort of app and cannot be shimmed enough or handle high lift/aggressive lobes. They're also bulky as hell with steel hardware and have to control heavy ferrea valves. The whole setup is no good for anything other than a NA motor with a mild cam, end of story. Ask Lloyd and he'll tell you the same thing... change the springs. I'm not bashing the man's work. If you want to understand the disparity in price between AI and LE then look beyond the list price.

I had a set of GenX 195s I was going to send to him but they needed some additional work. The price of porting, valve work, and hardware was a little more than I wanted to dump into a set of used TFS heads so I sold them and picked up a set of never ran AFRs for cheap.

Brian Tooley Racing

iTrader: (13)

Our springs and the Nextek springs are made by the same manufacturer so I would call it Gala compared to Fuji...

96capricemgr

iTrader: (1)

There are what 2-3 major valvespring makers? Just one primary wire maker?
Chevy makes an Aveo and a ZL1, is that a Fuji to gala comparison?

With in every brand there are quality levels and price point options.

-PEPE-

iTrader: (10)

No kidding, not cheap and especially when you have them custom ported post-AFR procurement. Think I had the AFR210s on my 396 stroker, went straight to the machine shop, they were beast heads but I've seen stockers do incredible on these LT1s with the right machine shop and tuning.

Define "cheap", we build these beasts with hopes, dreams and lots of cash, then take a financial beating one day when we sell said beast for next to nothing. Honeybadgers don't care how much you put in an engine...why it's a measley old 97 LT1..pfftt...you want how much? haha...just venting, was glad to sell my lil mule PEPE when I did...

Brian Tooley Racing

iTrader: (13)

Are you saying we sell Aveo valve springs?

It would be more like a C6 Z06 compared to a ZR1.

If I sold them for twice as much maybe the uninformed would think they're twice as good...

hrcslam

I'm hoping one day our little ole LT1's are worth some coin. I've seen the Gen 3 F-Bodies and C4 Corvettes (probably the least sought after, especially without the LT1) start climbing in value. In another 5-10 years I wouldn't be surprised if our $3000 Z28's and $6K Trans Ams are going for double that (in good shape of course) and maybe more with limited items (M6, WS6, true SS, etc).

We'll likely never see the value exceed what we've put into them monetarily, but I don't think any of us are doing what we do to our cars for monetary gains. We do what we do for reasons money can't buy. It just sucks to have to sell them after all that hard work.

Catmaigne

iTrader: (6)

Nobody is saying they're bad springs and they're definitely more than adequate for a street car. However, the Nexteks seem to be held to a higher standard and the price reflects that. There has to be a reason the funny car guys run them and Isky Tool Rooms, PSI ML, etc.

None of this has anything to do with the topic at hand. Moral of the story: more expensive springs means more expensive heads. There are other good reasons the AIs cost more, but I would rather buy 210s at that point.

Catmaigne

iTrader: (6)

I don't think they're ever going to be worth a whole lot though. These cars are completely overshadowed by the LS1s that succeeded them. If you want something with resale value then the catfish is your best bet...

96capricemgr

iTrader: (1)

You are a great salesman.
I didn't say Chevy sells just an Aveo and a ZL1 I said there are many quality levels and price points, point being the "same manufacturer" argument was a poor one, albeit one that would work well with many shoppers. Kind of like when Dodge put a red Viper in the commercials with the red minivan, both red and Dodge so =.

Thank you for being a voice of reason.

I have first hand experience with extra processing improving spring life. That is a part of what makes springs like the Nextek cost more.
Sure there is some "brand equity" too but that doesn't mean the price is all in the name, it is an upgraded product. The upgrade may or may not be worth it for each application and buyer.

Lt1Porsche

iTrader: (6)

So I think I have narrowed it down between the LE trickflows 21 degree heads which would 2100 or the afr 210s for 1800. I got a quote on the afrs from a company. Only difference is I will need to do some port matching with the afrs bc they are lt4 designs and 23 degree heads. What's the thought between these two.