RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

My situation is similar; for the better part of the last two decades I've had a stark contrast of various cars to experience in my collection. The LS1 F-bodies are quite different from the old GM muscle I've owned/driven, and also quite different from the various tame daily drivers I've had during that period as well (ranging from a '96 Bonneville to an '02 Monte Carlo SS to currently a '10 Malibu LT).

I don't really get much excitement or enjoyment from the tame, pedestrian daily drivers I've owned, but they have been nice cars. I would not ever pick one over my LS1 F-bodies for the purposes of "fun" though. In fact, for quite a while I used my '02 Z28 as a year-round daily driver because I became pretty bored with the H-body Bonneville and W-body Monte Carlo.

These cars are definitely controllable and mostly predictable if you use your head and become gradually familiar with their limits over a period of driving. Having said that, I've never had any problem getting them to break traction on dry ground when punching it from a stop or off-idle roll, even with a 2.73 auto car (I've had two of these) on summer, high performance 275mm tires. Some people talk about having trouble spinning the tires even with the A4/3.23 cars, but all of mine have been quite capable of doing this even when stock, regardless of gear ratio. Again, I agree it's quite controllable with some common sense and experience though.

Ah yes, I know that of which you speak. The Mopar E-bodies with a 440-6 setup are quite fun to drive and the audio experience is nothing short of amazing. I had the privilege of driving one once in a 'Cuda, with a slight cam upgrade/head work/full exhaust, it was quite enjoyable.

I drove a friend's '02 C5 last summer and it was a nice car IMO, but the only real difference between it and my LS1 F-bodies, under normal street driving conditions, was a more planted feel from the IRS going over bumps or into curves. I'm sure the C5 feels quite a bit more stable and capable, stock vs. stock, compared to the F-body when both are pushed to the limits, but for normal driving I don't think a C5 would suit the OP either. Perhaps a C6, which does feel more refined (though still not like a luxury car), might be closer to his taste.

Off-topic, but I can't imagine how difficult it would be to keep a current 2015 model car on the road when it's as old as my '71 is today. Systems and devices are vastly more complicated and difficult to repair on newer cars, and there is so much more to go wrong; I would never buy a current-or-future new car with the intention of keeping it for several decades.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Not all old cars are created equal; there were sport/muscle cars as well as luxury cars back then too.

You might enjoy some of the more powerful-but-still-luxurious-and-smooth cars of decades past. Something like a '70 Coupe DeVille (375hp 472ci V8) or a '70 Eldorado (400hp 500ci V8, but came standard with FWD which isn't as preferable IMO) might be more to your liking. These cars had tons of power and torque (not as much as those numbers would suggest though, as HP was a gross rating back then, vs. current net figures), but were heavy so they aren't as fast as the smaller cars of that era with similar power. A close friend has a really nice '70 DeVille that I've driven, it's extremely smooth and powerful without the disconnected feel of the newest generation of cars, and the stock TH400 shifts SO much better than any modern automatic I have experienced. Having said that, the overall driving experience is very different from my '71 Nova with modified SBC, which generally drives similar to a comparably modified Camaro or Chevelle of that era, so you can't really group all these old cars into one category of road feel either.

If you ever did want to try out an old car, I would highly suggest a late '60s/very early '70s Cadillac with a 472/500ci engine.

Well there is no doubt that the older cars aren't as safe during a collision, so really you have to either be OK with this or not. People did get hurt or killed more often in older cars, but they are not exactly death traps either. This is really a personal consideration so you have to stick with whatever makes you feel comfortable. But yes, the older cars are much easier to work on, due to space as well as less solid state electronics and controls.

Muscle/affordable performance cars just might not be your style/to your liking then. They don't feel refined or tame or smooth in the same sense as common daily drivers, or especially luxury vehicles, would feel - even when they have fresh parts and are well cared for. They are supposed to feel like a machine that you operate rather than an appliance that runs on auto pilot, but as such they are not for everyone. I think the closest compromise you would find would again be an older luxury car that still feels somewhat like a machine, and has plenty of torque, but that offers the smooth and tame ride qualities that you prefer at a price more affordable than the newest generation of cars. Maybe not something as old as a '70 Cadillac, but perhaps something more like a '94-'96 Impala SS or Caprice/Roadmaster/Fleetwood with an LT1 350 which you could then modify to whatever power levels would satisfy you. They aren't all that fast in stock form, but being an SBC the sky is the limit in terms of power. These are 4-door cars though, and I know you prefer a coupe (as do I) so perhaps this is not the answer either.

The record fastest stock LS1 F-bodies have run as fast as high 12s at 108+ MPH, but typically they run more like mid-low 13s around 103-107 depending on trans type, driver and weather conditions (assuming the car and engine are in good shape). So whether or not this is "fast" is a matter of personal interpretation, but that's the sort of performance you can expect from a stock example.

Like I mentioned in my post above, Corvettes of the same era (C5) do feel a bit more planted and stable in normal driving situations, but they are not vastly different from a 4th gen F-body on the whole. You might want to try one out for yourself, as perception can vary, but in back-to-back driving I didn't feel that the C5 was a whole different world from my F-bodies at all. Again, this might change had I pushed the car hard, but it was someone else's car and we were just doing some spirited driving around town. Under those conditions, the C5 just felt like a slightly more refined F-body to me.

Yes, I would personally have no use for any kind of Nissan in my life, but that doesn't mean that my opinion is any more or less valuable than yours; this hobby is all about preference and everyone has their personal priorities, goals and requirements. There is nothing wrong with what you prefer, but it's important for your own sake that you not talk yourself into a car based solely on performance or performance per dollar if there is some other priority or consideration that is more meaningful to you. You don't have to like something just because other people do (or don't), just follow what makes you most happy.

Having said that, it's going to be hard to meet your goals of smooth/refined/tame ride, plenty of power without the need for modification, modern safety features, affordable, and not too much modern tech/gadgetry to distract you from the driving experience. Off the top of my head, I can't think of a specific car that meets all of these requirements, but what I CAN tell you is that a 4th gen LS1 car is probably not the right choice based on everything you have outlined.

Gunsr

I'm not sure the Z28 would do it either. I remember looking at a '98 or '99 Z28, that was the one the guy did everything to it and it had maybe 78k miles or something like that? It still felt noisy and had some of the same traits as the SS, but no it was not as bad. It's just kind of crushing to find out the car that you've thought looked cool for so long, wanted to have for a long time but never had the money, couldn't find one, or were too young to buy is now a car that when you have the means and ability that you don't even like. It just sucks.

I want to test drive some form of Corvette, likely a C5 as it's what I'd probably be able to find in the price range I'd be ok spending. If it truly drives rough and isn't what I want, that will be the final crushing blow. I think I'll probably just give up on fast cars and just go look at luxury cruisers like a Lexus LS430 or an Infiniti M45. I really hope it doesn't come to that, as I always like fast cars and feeling the power. I guess I just do not care at all for the way Camaros do it. I don't even know how many YouTube videos I've watched of badass Camaros thinking it would be great to own one, and now I just can't make myself want it anymore.

Thank you all for your thoughts, I won't say I wouldn't ever look at a Camaro again but I guess I won't bother unless it's low mile. And then the price will probably be so high that I might as well just get something else. I'm not crazy on spending $12k on a car that won't be newer than a 2002 considering the Camaro isn't a luxury car.

EDIT: Typed this up before RPM WS6's response. I guess I'll try and look at a C6 then, although there's almost no way I'll find one of those in my affordable price range so it will just be a pipe dream for now. The SS I looked at has already been sold anyway, it seems rare anyone lists one that isn't thousands over book. At least I know this about them now, I almost held off on going to look at it until I could have a friend go with me but decided to just go for it.

I am not a fan of Chrysler at all either (Pretty much I only ever liked GMs) but what do you think about how a Challenger R/T would drive? They seem heavier than Camaros and Mustangs so I wonder if they drive nicer for it at the cost of some raw speed and handling?

EDIT 2: What do you think of this Corvette? I am thinking I'll go drive it and see how I like it. The miles seem very low and the price is near the range I'm ok with, I would definitely try to get it cheaper though. Maybe I truly have just found bad Camaros? Anything I should really beware of when looking at it? I will probably do it after work tomorrow.

RockinWs6

I have to say my z28 and non WS6 TA's while a blast to drive felt very tame , smooth and quiet. My WS6 is loud and rough but its one nasty azz car that begs to be driven. On the Interstate its amazing what this car can do, no rockets needed.

I'll tell ya what you should drive is the 2010 and up Camaro, in v6 or v8 flavors they are a blast and may feel more refined to you. I drove a 2011 v6 model and it rocked! I also drove a 2012 SS FARKING quiet and FARKING FAST!

Gunsr

I drove that C5 Corvette...wow, now THAT is what I want. It did not ride bad like the Camaro did, it was stiff but not rattley or anything like that. Felt powerful, and I really didn't floor it. I did crack it pretty good and it hit 90 mph like nothing without even getting near the redline. I could feel the engine make a bit more vibration and noise as I punched it. I know this is a "duh" but my V6 when opening up never really does it in this way, nor have the 350zs I drove. But I believe this is normal, right? I could probably live with it. The car is deceptively low the ground, I scraped pulling back into the dealer's lot and it wasn't at that sharp of an angle.

The clutch felt good on this one, less stiff than the Camaro and the gas pedal was not so stiff and short travel. The shifter is weird though, it required me to really throw the shifter into the gears. I went to let out in first once thinking I was in gear just to find that it revved up and didn't go anywhere, I hadn't pushed it hard enough. I found myself a few times feeling like I had to really shove the shifter into the gears. It didn't grind or anything, but is that normal? The car had a ton of previous owners which was concerning, and there was an accident reported which I did not like.

The car clearly needed rotors as it vibrated when braking, and the A/C was not very cold at all so clearly has leaked and needs to be serviced (I will not drive a car with no A/C). It's a beautiful car though, but I hate that it was base model really. No active suspension, no factory CD Player (FWIW), and I think it flashed some system code at me when it first started about "check suspension" something? I guess it's normal for a Corvette's info system to not work while the car is moving? I noticed I couldn't adjust the modes when driving generally as most of the time I was driving it was just blank and did nothing.

I think I'd probably like a C6 even more, but they seem even more outrageously expensive. So considering I was generally happy with the Corvette, do you think then I have just been finding beat on Camaros or is the Corvette really that different in how it drives and rides? I'm now curious to drive yet another Camaro. As far as that '99 Corvette goes, should I bother any more with it? The dealer claimed as most do "we can fix the stuff that's wrong" but probably not to take a fair price. They wanted nearly $17k for it and then dropped after it didn't sell for some time to $15k. Book says a range from $11.9k to $15k, but somehow I doubt the dealer would even consider a $12k offer on that car because of the miles and how nice it looks.

RockinWs6

17k outrageous? Sorry I'm not in your world.

Gunsr

I'd call $25-36,000 for a 2005-2006 Corvette, non-ZO6 to be pretty outrageous. They cost $55k+ new, so in 10 years the car should still cost more than half what it went for new? I just don't see it. I'd love to have one, but to hell with paying those prices. I'd probably just go buy a slightly used Camaro SS that's actually pretty much a new car.

I've bought nothing but $5-7k cars (The DeVille was actually $3k and 90k miles too, but more an impulse buy), so my perspective is skewed somewhat. I'm aware of it, but to me few new cars are worth what they ask. But I'm not going to pay all that money for an old car, that literally no bank is going to loan on. I'm going to have to go to a credit union to get some kind of loan for it, and AFAIK you can't get comprehensive on cars older than 10 years (or the rate goes way up? I don't even know, I just have liability). I have a hard time getting rid of that weird feeling of maybe spending $13-14k on a '99 car that needs work done to it when I could spend $12k and buy a car several years newer that is still fast (not as fast or with the same nice engine) that will need nothing. 350z are in this price range quite regularly, and I've found a 2007 Lexus GS430 and 2006 Infiniti M35X for less than this Corvette with admittedly a bit more miles, but not horrible mileage. Please don't think I'm saying the Corvette isn't good, it's just it feels screwed up to pay that for a car that needs fixing and there are luxury cars out there that are newer for the same price that need nothing but a new owner.

There's just too much risk with a car that age for any number of things if I can't get it cheaper (The point of older used cars is to get them cheap enough to just pay cash - like $7-8k ideally). I really wanted fun and powerful, without paying the price of a new car for a used one (at this point). I might buy a new Corvette in a few years, but for now I just want a used one that isn't thousands of dollars over book value because "OMG, it's a Corvette!" which is how basically anyone who sells one lists it.

Firebrian

Corvettes of all mileages are pretty common. You never did say what the mileage on that '99 was so no idea if it's 75K or 125K. Can't expect much in the way of maintenance free, riding like new modern muscle cars for $5K to $7K. You might be able to find a base V-8 Camaro or Firebird with 50-60K miles in that range but it wouldn't be easy. If you find the right car being sold by a 3rd party who has no clue what they're worth you could score. And even if you didn't want to keep it, you could easily flip a year or two later. I have a '99 SS and I have collision and liability on it. Your insurance agent might tell you that such an older car is not worth keeping collision on...but, that's often b.s. My son did that with a car I had bought for him. It was like 13 years old with $2K in fresh suspension work and a brand new engine. He didn't put collision on it because his agent told him it was a waste of money on an "old car." That same year it was totaled in a snow storm when it slid down a hill. He got zero $$ for it. And I was the one that spent the $4K on those upgrades. That was a bitter pill to swallow. He was in his late 20's or early 30's at that time. Your collision may go way up on a performance car because of your age....and especially if single. But, as I recall, when my son turned 24 or 26 his rates came down a lot. A 1999 LS-1 with mid to higher miles is well-depreciated so I'd be surprised if rates are way up there. The dealer should fix all those items on the car or you just walk. The dealer probably has to fix them any ways to sell the car to a retail client....unless they just end up wholesaling to a used car lot or local auto auction.

Fwiw the engine in that '99 Corvette is the same as the one in SS/Z28. There are very little differences in actual HP and actual performance. RPM WS6 has noted a number of times that there are road and drag tests from that era showing that often times the Z28 or Firebird beat the Vette. With relatively little effort the '99 Z28 can be made the HP equal of the Vette....the handling and feel is another story though. A 1999 Vette with a "ton of owners" may not be a worthy car with so many people tweaking it and then passing it along (did it have problems that each owner picked up on?). The hard shifting you mention could easily be someone's shifter "upgrade." I can't see a factory set up feeling like that. I'm not even sure if the '99 Vette clutch and shifter are any different than the Camaro/Firebird.

You should be able to find a private party '98-'00 Vette with from 40K to 65K miles in the $12K to $15K range where it has recently had brakes, tires, fluids, clean emissions + codes, and A/C all done (ie a fussy owner)....1 to 3 owners total. Keep looking until you find that 1 owner out of 10 who decided to go through the car all at once....and then got tired of it. Either that, or wait another 3-5 years when the first few years of Z06 Vettes with mid mileage hit the $14K-$16K range. Active suspension is just one more thing that can go wrong with an older car. I'm fine with the "inactive" suspension on my '99 SS.

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/Used+Cars/cars+under+15000/Chevrolet/Corvette/East+Lyme+CT-06333?endYear=2000&engineCode=8CLDR&engineCodes=8C LDR&listingType=used&listingTypes=used&makeCode1=C HEV&maxMileage=75000&maxPrice=15000&mmt=[CHEV[CORV[]][]]&modelCode1=CORV&photosOnlyActual=true&pricesOnly= true&searchRadius=0&showcaseListingId=0&showcaseOw nerId=1360232&sortBy=derivedpriceASC&startYear=199 8&Log=0

Gunsr

I actually gave the link a few posts back, but it has 56k miles. A friend of mine who is really into cars (Subaru mostly) told me this looked like a pretty good deal and that I should probably give it some thought. My concern is for the A/C problem, how much would it cost to actually fix it and not just do a recharge? My Altima has 151k miles and A/C is frigid, and before that my old Riviera was ice cold even at 170k miles. I saw something that said $1,400 or so for the work plus labor, but if you could remove the water pump yourself then it could be done much cheaper. But going back to my mechanical inclinations, I dunno if that's something I'd even consider.

The first owner for this Corvette was corporate so I guess it was a company car? The next two owned it for two months and then three months respectively, which seems odd and they barely drove it anyway. The third owner is the one who had the accident. A month after the accident, it had a four wheel alignment then was offered for sale. The fourth owner had it for almost 3 years and put maybe 10k miles on it, lots of regular servicing from them. The fifth owner was a little over half a year, put maybe 3-4k miles on it and then sold. The sixth and final owner had it for almost 9 years and all it shows then is the yearly registration renewal. They put about 13k miles on the car in all those years.

I really liked a lot about it, but I guess my question is can I get the dealer to fix these problems (they're a Chevy dealer no less) and still get them to lower the price? The KBB and TMV make it sound like it's overpriced and it should be more around 13k, but I'm not sure how much the condition stuff factors against it or matters because it's a Corvette. I just don't see how a Camaro could be close to as fast as this was, but I will say I felt much more comfortable pushing the Corvette than I did with the Camaros I have driven.

I did not think to ask if it had lots of records with it, but it was a local trade in so it was not an auction car at least. The car has always been in my state as well. I really feel like finding a Corvette like this again - color I like and not silver (ugh), not a convertible, not an automatic, and not $5k over book or with high miles - will be hard to do. They claim it's listed at $2k below NADA, but their figures are always really high anyway so I feel like of course they naturally choose their numbers. But if I were to list the car for sale, that's my thing - what would I be able to list it for? I would want to be sure I don't end up upside down in it, but on further thought think this Corvette was actually not as bad as I first thought (I have gut reactions of negativity when A/C isn't very cold in any car, the rotors/brakes are not as big of a deal I understand and I'd want to upgrade with better ones most likely anyway).

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Well as I mentioned above, it's good that you test drove it for yourself as sometimes perception can vary from person to person. To give you an idea of where my most recent C5 vs F-body comparison came from, my '98 Z28 is a 17k mile original car in excellent mechanical/suspension/chassis condition; the only modifications include simple bolt-ons and sub-frame connectors. I have owned several of these and some were much more heavily modified and some had many more miles, but this is the one I drove back-to-back with the aforementioned C5. The C5 in question was a 2002 model with 35k-ish miles and also in excellent all-around condition, completely stock other than exhaust. Again, I really didn't notice much difference in road behavior between the two, other than how the C5's IRS managed bumps and spirited cornering; in a word it felt more "planted", but this was not a night-and-day difference during normal driving in my opinion. When pushed to the limits, I'm sure the C5 would excel more noticeably in terms of handling, stock for stock. Things like rattles or general "looseness" were pretty much non-existent in either car. My '98 does make a little squeak or rattle here and there in cold weather over rough pavement, but not really at all in the summer and the sub-frame connectors probably help with that quite a bit.

Having said that, my daily driver '02 Z28 had 106k miles when I sold it and it did have a few more creaks and rattles than my '98, and it didn't feel as tight, but it wasn't horrible by comparison. I had maintained the car well, but the suspension was stock and it could have used a new set of shocks.

You could try another Camaro, maybe with much lower mileage, but it sounds like the C5 might be more your style. It's also possible that we just perceive the comparison differently, in which case you may find the C5 considerably more to your liking regardless of how many [nice] Camaros you might drive. Also keep in mind that very low mileage LS1 F-bodies are going to be considerably more expensive than the $7500 you were willing to pay for that SS, so for that kind of money you might prefer to just go with the C5 anyway, assuming you're happy with what the [relatively] higher mileage C5 can deliver.

I can't help much on manual-specific comparisons, as I'm an auto guy and have only driven a few of these with a manual. Certainly not enough seat time to offer much advice in that regard.

As for the gas pedal, the fact that the C5 uses a drive-by-wire system might account for the difference. Interestingly, this is one of the things I dislike about C5s and other DBW applications; the pedal isn't stiff enough and it travels too far. Haha, my preference is exactly opposite of yours in this regard. Something you might want to keep in mind then is the fact that the older ('98-'99, maybe 2000 as well) F-bodies used a different throttle body cam that allowed for shorter travel. So if you don't like the travel of the '01+ pedal, you probably really wouldn't like the older ones. As you can imagine, I actually prefer the older ones for their shorter travel.

Exactly. Here is an old article from, I think, MM&FF. It mentions the record fastest pass of 12.89 @108, and that was in a '99 M6 Z28. It also shows how fast they got an '02 SS to run in completely stock trim. These cars are no slouches, but not everyone will be able to drive like Evan Smith, nor will every car be such a strong example. Mid to low 13s is a more realistic expectation, but you might be happily greeted with better:



I couldn't agree more!

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Haha, silver and automatic are two of my main preferences! In fact all three of my current cars meet those exact specifications. But I agree about the convertible aspect, I'd really rather have the Targa top on a C5 myself, the roof lines of the convertible and FRC models just look unpleasant to me.

Firebrian already touched on this, but really you'll have to expect an older car to need a couple things when buying used. Rarely does someone sell or trade in a car that is 100% perfect. Brakes are a common wear item on any car, so something like this is to be expected. Major issues are what you want to try to avoid, but I've never bought a used car that didn't need some sort of wear item/general maintenance shortly after purchase.

Dealer pricing will always be higher, so I wouldn't expect to be able to sell it privately for the same price you'd pay at the dealer, though I guess you might get lucky if you can wait long enough. Dealers are more likely to be able to sell a car than a private seller, partly because they can offer financing options that are convenient for the buyer. As a private seller, you'll need to find a buyer who has the cash or is willing to deal with the hassle of arranging for a loan for a private purchase. Some buyers just don't want the hassle, so they pay more at the dealer.

Gunsr

I don't hate silver honestly, it just blends in too much . My Altima is silver, but I prefer something like a nice red, black, white, and sometimes a blue. I probably wouldn't ever not buy a car based on the color if it checked all the other boxes (Ok except bronze, never a bronze car...), but colors I prefer strongly help. I dunno what it is about silver that people love so much, but I see too many silver cars that it makes me like the aspect of standing out in something else. A bright yellow Corvette, now that I'd really like as well.

When I bought my Altima, the only thing I had to do on it was replace the rear rotors and pads, they weren't vibrating just very little pad left. So with all things considered, is this Corvette worth the trouble? I personally always held Corvettes on a pedestal, so my preference will always be for one over a Camaro/Firebird. I'm almost thinking of driving something like that Corvette for a few years and then later on maybe if I find a ZO6 or a C6, upgrading to that. This definitely feels a lot faster than my Altima though, the SS didn't quite have that feel for some reason. It probably was, I guess all the vibration and noise just made it seem more raw than it should've.

Also, is it normal for the digital panel on a Corvette to not allow you to change it while driving? I've had other cars with those kinds of systems and you can adjust it whenever, but the Corvette seemed like all the buttons didn't respond unless the car was stopped but I only tried it once since I was more focused on driving. I wouldn't be financing at the dealer anyway as I figure their rates will be awful. I'm not part of a credit union, but think I'll look into doing that as I hear they're much nicer to deal with and give better rates.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Silver didn't start to gain significant popularity until the mid-late '90s. You won't find a ton of '80s or earlier cars in silver, it was comparatively quite rare during certain periods. Some colors just go through phases of popularity and obscurity, either due to market over/under saturation or changing tastes/styles. I've always loved silver, even before it was popular. I also love green. In general I find bright yellow cars to be foul, but I would make an exception for certain antiques/classics.....a modern Corvette NOT being one of those exceptions. But this is purely a matter of personal preference, beauty is always in the eye of the beholder.

The price on that C5 is probably about right for a dealer (or at least it would be in my region), so if you want a newer or issue-free one, you'll probably have to be ready to pay more or look for a private sale deal. The A/C issues seem a bit premature with such low miles, I haven't owned a modern car that's ever had A/C problems with under 100k. Either way though, it might be a good idea to check out a few more before committing to one.

As Firebrian and myself covered above, there isn't any big stock acceleration difference between a C5 and LS1 F-body, trans type for trans type and model year for model year. The C5 is a bit faster on average, but not so much as to be a world apart. The SS you drove either had some power loss issues, or the overall experience was just troublesome enough to you that the acceleration rate was sullied.

Not sure; I didn't spend any time attempting to modify the displays while in motion on the few that I've driven over the years.

Many people have reported such, so this is probably worth looking into. I've been a cash-only buyer for quite some time now, so I really can't offer any current advice in this regard. My attitude is that if I can't pay cash for it, I can't afford it. Having said that, I too took out loans for cars in my early-mid 20s, but I'm just not willing to dump that kind of cash on interest payments anymore.

Gunsr

Ok so I found an example of the kind of Camaro I believe you all would recommend, but this seems again like it might be too expensive. Based on KBB this is a few grand over its value even if I throw in stuff it does not have (SS package, although I know this one is modded and should be faster than one that is). Does this sound about right for the year and miles, or is it too much?
http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-s...83562243&Log=0

I like the cam and headers, these are things I would want done to it if I really had the know how but given my lack of really wanting to work on cars a lot can I ever even own a car that has these things done to it? Also, do most people who cam automatics put in the thing that requires you to go over a certain RPM to start moving (the name escapes me) or do they just put it in neutral at idle so it doesn't lunge while in gear?

Another example I found, but not so great on the low miles part but at least it's one of the interesting unique colors for '98 and '99. According to KBB, this one is way over the price it should be going for which should be about $5,500 tops and more likely around $4,700. See I'm always uncomfortable with these prices because literally every time the seller wants thousands more than every value estimator provides (Edmunds TMV, KBB, sometimes even NADA). This '98 they say $7,000 is the cash price, as though it would be more if you aren't paying cash. And while you guys are sensible here, the Z28s I look at from dealers almost always act like "oh wow, so rare, Z28! Powerful! So expensive, blah blah blah" usually ignoring all the stuff that's broken on it like the little buttons on the driver side door hanging out, service engine light on, A/C not cold, windows roll down slow. "But it's a Z28!"...
http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-s...97843618&Log=0

The first is probably more like what I should look at given the likelihood of records, etc but the latter is more the price point I'm ok with. Also, are the auto Camaros really as fast as the 6-speeds? Or do they give up mileage due to the lower number of gears? All I know is everyone seems to really hate on autos, I don't have a problem with them other than I find manuals to be more fun. It would feel extremely weird after searching out for a car that is nearly always an automatic (Altima) and then buying a true performance car and getting the automatic where the manual would be my typical expectation there. My dad tells me I will get sick of the manual in traffic and such, but it hasn't happened yet - I still greatly enjoy driving my manual even when traffic comes up. I don't think I'd hate an auto as much if it was very fast shifting, but most seem to meander when they shift. Also I like the slight added security that maybe someone couldn't steal my car because it's a manual? I know it wouldn't stop a determined crook, but maybe they'd pass mine over for another easier target? Being someone who very much loves driving and the experience of driving a car, I feel like autos were made for the masses who hate driving and want as little to do with operating a car as possible (exception very duly noted though that for cars like Camaros and such that they can be very fast with automatics and this is not necessarily the case for many).

This gets me to another point to throw in since we're kind of comparing Camaro to Corvette. Don't the Corvettes hold their value better? I mean, I've seen a lot more ragged out Camaros than I ever have Corvettes period. It's kind of why I tend to write off a lot of Camaros I find on online listings because I've looked at several that seemed ragged with goofy tail lights, stupid custom headlights, and a bunch of other really awful stuff some previous owner thought would make the car cooler. Corvettes generally don't suffer the same problem, probably due to their expense. Is the C5 Corvette any easier, harder, or the same difficulty to work on?

EDIT: Uh oh, just noticed for that second Camaro link - Carfax shows first owner was in California for 16 years. Does that mean it probably has some BS smog garbage on it? I know that is the one state you generally do not want a vehicle to originate from since they put stuff in that would choke down the performance.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

That car is overpriced IMO, and to my eye doesn't present as nicely as the ad suggests. The headlights look at bit hazier than they should at that mileage if the car was always garage kept, so it's probably spent some time outside and/or the headlights have never been maintained properly with wax. The driver's seat, floor mat and center console arm rest show a bit more wear than I'd want to see for such low miles, and the grille delete and (apparently) plasti-dipped wheels are a bit sloppy for my taste. The brake rotor hat is quite rusty for a non-daily driver at that mileage (or perhaps they are non-stock rotors that just didn't come with a coated hat). Overall I would take a pass on that car at that price.

I'm also not fond of buying modern cars that have been modified, unless I know the shop/person that did it and trust them.

The item you're referring to above is the torque converter. Really this is the best first upgrade you can do for an LS1 auto car, even with the stock cam. It doesn't require you to reach a certain rpm just to move, but the throttle will feel a bit more loose under normal acceleration from a stop, and rpms will go a bit higher than before when getting up to speed normally. The severity of all of this will depend on several factors (stall speed, converter efficiency/quailty, STR, etc.... too long of a conversation for this thread but there is a ton of info on this if you search the auto trans section). The performance benefits of this modification are huge, even with a stock engine. With a more aggressive cam, the benefits only increase. I personally wouldn't be willing to drive any auto car with a bigger cam and the stock stall speed, it should always be increase for a cam upgrade IMO.

Whether or not you can "handle" the modifications really depends on your tolerance for driveability issues and/or extra maintenance. Some of the more aggressive cams require valve spring swaps every ~10-30k miles, depending on usage and specs. Then some milder cams will be no more hassle than stock. So you'd really need to know the various specs of the build, which are not included in the ad, and also drive the car to evaluate how well it was tuned (not all tuners are created equal, and just because a car has been dyno tuned doesn't mean that proper time has been spent on a driveability street tune - you'd have to drive it to find out.)

I wouldn't consider that car simply because of the color, I really dislike Sport Gold Metallic on the 4th gens. It seems to have average wear for the age/mileage and the price should be able to be worked down some, but personally I'd rather pay more to get a nicer/lower mile one to start with. Dealers will always ask more than "book" value, but you can try to work them down.

The stock performance difference between the autos and manuals isn't as huge as it is with some other cars. On average the autos are usually a couple tenths and a couple MPHs slower than the manuals in the 1/4 mile. The fastest stock autos and the fastest stock manuals are really pretty close overall, but obviously the manual takes the right driver to get the best possible times. As far as modified examples, the sky is the limit with either trans type. Usually, if two cars are comparably modified at comparable weight, the manual will post slightly better trap speeds as less power is lost though the drivetrain. But with the advantage of a proper stall speed converter, the auto may be able to run a faster ET than the manual, even though the trap speed is a bit slower. From a roll, the manual will usually have an advantage, but again this can be somewhat negated with a higher stall speed for the auto.

Overall, the auto vs. manual debate is as old as the transmissions themselves. Some people like one and hate the other, while others don't really care either way.

I'm an auto guy myself. I live in a highly populated area (Chicago) where there is always traffic, roads are straight and flat, and there's a stop light/stop sign every 1/8 to 1/4 mile - perfect auto country. If you're in the mountains or rural areas, the manual might be more fun. Every time I've been forced to drive a manual in traffic, I've found it quite annoying and was happy to be done with it. I don't at all feel like the auto is a way to have "as little to do with operating a car as possible", I just don't want to be bothered with clutch operation in traffic. It really is just that simple. Shifting is fun, and the best of both worlds is the setup I have in my Nova: a built TH350 with higher stall and ratchet shifter; I can put it in drive and forget about it, or up/down shift manually with precise selection and fast response time. Autos, even modern autos, can be drastically improved with tuning and/or internal modification to shift speed/firmness/behavior. This is easier to do with the older ones since there is no electronic intervention, but the newer ones can still be greatly improved. The stock 4L60E auto in these 4th gens isn't nearly as sluggish as some of the most recent run-of-the-mill GM autos (such as the 6T40E - this one shifts slow enough to eat a sandwich between gears).

MPG will be better with the manual, when driven in such a way as to prioritize mileage, especially on the highway since it has two overdrives (though 6th isn't very useable with the stock rear end gearing, unless you often cruise at some really high speeds.)

Overall, there is no right or wrong choice in this debate, it's all about personal preference. People who tell you that one or the other is boring/good/bad/etc. are just speaking for themselves, you'll have to try both and decide what's right for you. I have plenty of fun driving my autos in my local conditions, in fact I prefer it, and tend to become annoyed with the manual....so again there is no one-size-fits-all answer.

Corvettes tend to be owned by an older crowd, due to their price. This helps to keep used examples in better (and more stock) condition. So yes, you will typically find more beat up Camaros than you would Corvettes.

Which one is harder to maintain all depends on the job in question. The Camaro suffers from having half the engine buried under the cowl, but the C5 has a lot more gadgets and electronics to break and deal with.

Exeodus

iTrader: (1)

Value is only what somebody is willing to, or what they think someone is willing pay for it. Modded cars will usually pull less money as it scares a lot of buyers off. Most want a bone stock car, either because they want to keep it that way, or if they mod it, they want to know for sure it is done properly and to their liking. It really comes down to what do you think is a fair price for the car.
And it does surprise me how many people complain about rattles and squeaks from a 4th gen. It makes me wonder if they ever owned a 2nd or 3rd gen. These cars are a lot better quality in my opinion compared to the '92 and older cars.

Firebrian

I don't like either of those 2 cars you presented above. The modified 400+ hp car just looks ragged to me. Can you really get >400 hp with just tune, cam, headers, lid? Was the rear end upgraded along with those extra hp? The Sport Gold camaro seems to have a $2K or so premium attached to the price. At 100K miles I wouldn't want to pay more than a $500 premium (10%) assuming the car was real clean. Those special '98 and '99 colors are very popular on low mileage examples, but more so on the Firebirds. Sport Gold is a matter of taste, just as a yellow Corvette is. Most people would probably pass on the yellow vette as it's too bold and reminds them of tweetie-bird. Many people pass on red vettes and camaros because they are TOO common. My '99 SS is red....lol. Fwiw, I'm more interested in the car's actual condition than I am about colors and options. If the car isn't right otherwise, who cares what color or options it has? If a car was exceptional and priced right in a lousy color with lousy options, I'd consider it. I'm going to drive the car, not sleep with it. Yes, resale will be weaker. But, a strong driving car sells itself eventually. While black is common....everyone seems to love it. Can't go wrong unless there are a zillion swirls in the paint from overzealous buffers.

Unless you're very accomplished with a 6 speed in up-shifting and down-shifting, rev matching like the old truckers did decades ago, even double clutching, etc. then you're going to have problems making a 6 speed perform like an automatic. I've had several manual shift cars but I am not accomplished in tight situations where you need to make an instant down shift for power in <1 second. It has to be 2nd nature and fully ingrained. In an automatic it's just you and the accelerator pedal. You'll never miss a shift in a tight situation...nor blow up your engine, trans, or rear end because you made a horrible shift into the wrong gear at ludicrous rpm. You don't have to think with the automatic.

While I prefer automatics, that usually means stock setps. I've driven some cars with upgraded torque converters, stall speed, etc. and they felt like buckets of bolts to me. That extra firm shift, clunking, kick in the pants, etc. doesn't appeal to me. I like smooth factory shifts and leave it at that. Since you've mentioned ride quality so much, the annoyance of a very firm and whining automatic transmission might grate on you over time.

If you look at modded cars figure on almost no premium for those mods (basically, just the price of used parts if they were sitting on the ground). So $14K for a modded 47K mile camaro sounds high to me. I recall one guy here a year ago selling his purple '98 Firebird Formula/Trans Am with 90K miles that was all gone through with fresh paint, upgraded suspension, tires, wheels, cam, lid, exhaust, upgraded brakes, etc. He got $8K for that car and it looked wicked. Good deal for someone for all the $thousands put into that car. I've seen some modded cars with $20K in upgrades go begging for $10K to $15K. You CAN find a well modded car that's very nice as if you got most those mods for 0-30% of their original cost.

The '99 Vette you started with did have a NADA book value at $16.8K IF everything was up to snuff and working correctly. The KBB value was $4K less. That was surprising. Normally, KBB is the higher one when it comes to F bodies. I've not spent much time comparing Vette prices in the price guides. The more cars you look at, you'll get a much keener feel for pricing them. Spend a few weeks/months watching the offerings on autotrader, ebay, carsonline.com, etc. and you'll start to a get a much better feel for what's priced "right" and what's just "wrong." Don't be in a hurry to buy. Figure things out first. Test drive everything you can. You first impulse buy will often be a mistake you'll great a few months later as a better car shows up at much less money. Figure out exactly what is right for you. It's not a simple question until you've tried everything. The best time to get the best deal is from October to March when sellers get desperate and buyers disappear. You can easily save 5-10% of what a May-August purchase might cost you.

As far as A/C systems go they can fail just due to age and lack of driving. My '99 only had 15K miles on it 2 years ago when the Compressor failed due to a leaking casing seal. The previous owner knew there was a leak and just charged the car up. Of course when I asked how the AC was they said fine (it was 20 degrees outside the day I test drove the car). I was the one that foot the $800 bill when the AC didn't work that spring. Figure $500-$1,000 for a replacement of AC compressor/condensor, and HP/LP lines on a F body....probably more on a Vette. A quality OEM compressor costs $300, both lines $100-$150, condenser $100 + couple hours of labor.

Gunsr

Well as far as waiting on the Corvette, I do look for them off and on. Mostly just Craigslist but I check regularly and never see any that aren't just too highly priced for me and usually something like an auto convertible. My concern is I let this one go, and then I sit here years later and still have not found one priced that way again. And if something should happen to the Altima in that time and I need a new car, I doubt even more I'll find anything decent with that being a concern so I'll either have to settle for something probably too expensive and not what I want - or a totally different car, which doesn't help toward the goal of getting a Corvette. Interesting comments about yellow cars though, I had no idea a lot of people didn't like them. I tend to agree about red being and overdone color, but it's very nice looking I have to say so I'd give it a pass. Much like Ferrari red, perhaps cliche but still attractive (I do agree about black though, seems very nice but I've actually found very few black Corvettes period).

People say C4s should be cheap, yet I never see them. I once looked at a '95 that was $8k and a 6-speed, ran ok but interior was a bit worn. I think it had 80k miles on it, but the window was not lined up right so each time you close the driver door the glass slams into the paint and then lines itself up. I noticed the metal was exposed where it had been doing this for some time. It had lots of little things that were worn out interior wise and just seemed while it may have drove fine to not be in the best of shape and I felt the fact that window issue was never fixed telling of the previous owner's care of the car. It was at a dealer, and they seemed very passive about the car. Didn't care if I didn't want it or pointed out the issues, I guess because they felt it was so cheap that it would sell even with those problems. It did, and ever since I see old C4s like '91s and '92s for $10k with more miles and other really dumb things like that.

I am going to ask the dealer for the previous owner's information and ask them about it, as the last owner had it for almost 9 years. I figure if anyone might know how that car really is it would be them. I will also ask about records. For getting the A/C fixed, should I ask the dealer to fix it and then negotiate the lower price? They're a Chevy dealer so they know how to do the work I'm sure, but I have concerns of conflict of interest. I don't want a shot of freon, I want the underlying problem fixed. How often would a dealer actually fix something and then lower the price? I feel like the answer to that is pick one and that's it as it seems like the experience in the past but I don't know if that's a given or not.

Firebrian

There's rarely a car that is so good, nothing like it will ever come your way again, esp. with Vettes or F bodies. Invariably, when I think one got away, a few months later another one, even better, and often cheaper shows up. With collector cars, often half the fun (or more) is being on the hunt. Once you have your car, that hunting euphoria is gone until you can sell you current ride.

Ask the dealer to fix the AC. If they don't find a leak they can report on, or haven't replaced a part, then pass on the car. There's a leak there somewhere. I test drove a 2002 Camaro last year in 85 degree heat that had 0% AC. When the test drive was over the salesman who drove with me said how'd you like that AC? I told him you gotta be kidding. There isn't any. A few days later he calls me back and says, "you were right, the AC was bad." So now that we're going to fix it do you want the car? I told him I had zero interest. If their service dept (and sales staff) couldn't deduce a simple problem like this, what else did they overlook?

Not likely a dealer will go back to a previous owner as it's sort of their job to insulate them from anyone else coming back at them later. One of the reasons you sell to a dealer is to be done with the car. In the old days, I'm sure they would have helped you out. These days with all the privacy issues, identify thefts, robberies, etc. you almost can't get involved. If they knew you personally over the years, maybe they'd do it. But you can always ask. If it's a deal breaker on the car they might. With 6 owners, the red flags are waving on this one. Being a company car those guys wouldn't have thought twice about beating on it whenever they felt like it. If they haven't had this car since last year, odds are they figure they have all summer to find a buyer. It's still early in Corvette season.

celtsean

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, 14k for that first one is way overpriced. I see 12 -14 k models that are absolutely clean with 20k in mods. And you could probably talk them down. As a matter of a fact I just saw one but I can't post the link cause it's on a Facebook f-body page . Maybe I could screen shot one let me see.