RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Actually, you can get to 400 (crank) HP without even doing a cam, just bolt-ons, as these engines are already at ~350hp stock and the proper list of bolt-ons can in fact be worth ~50hp. With the right cam and good tuner, 400 (rear-wheel) hp is certainly possible for the M6 cars especially.


I generally agree. There are always one or two deal-breaker options for any platform of car I would look at, but in general my first priority is condition and integrity of the car. Resale isn't usually much of a consideration for me, as I tend to keep cars long enough that the markets/values often change anyway and I'm more concerned with personal satisfaction during the many years of ownership than with what I can sell it for many years later.

Black is a tough color to handle. It's a bit bland on modern cars with all blacked-out trim, but looks great on the older cars with chrome. I don't think it's a bad color, but owning one black car was enough to make me dislike the care aspect of that color. It's always near the bottom of my list of preferred options. For the record, I do like bright red very much on these cars, one of mine was that color as well.

In the OP's case, you may very well be right. Personally, I find the long, buttery-smooth shifts of the 6T40E in my Malibu to be sloppy and unsatisfying. On the other hand, the B&M TH350 in my '71 is just perfect; shifts are fast and firm without being stupidly harsh, it just drops into gear like snapping your fingers. That's ideal for me. A stock 4L60E in the LS1 F-bodies is somewhere between these two. With some shift speed tuning and torque management adjustment, the 4L60E can have an excellent shift feel without being excessively harsh.

I rarely use the A/C in mine, but try to turn it on at least 2-3 times per year just to lubricate the system. So far this has worked to prevent any issues, after 17 years and just 17k miles the whole system is still original and working fine. I wonder if yours was left unused for longer periods, or if I have just been lucky?

RockinWs6

My ac has 94k on it 01 Ws6 and still works good. Car sat for a long time and only had 38k on it in 10 years before I bought it. When I 1st started using the car the control valve in the compressor was stuck in low output position. Luckily after driving it a few thous miles with the ac on in hot weather it the valve worked itself free.

I also had o ring problems with air getting past the o ring causing lifter noise. Never did replace it just added a seal sweller product, although it really needs to be changed the sweller did its job. I can still see a bit of hesitation in the oil pressure gauge on a cold start because the o ring is deteriorated. My one big beef with GM is this stinkin o ring design, they knew dam well it would fail quickly<some right from the factory> but still use it even today to generate BUNCHES of confusion even for the dealers. Biggest BS story is this PISTON SLAP BS, usually its the o ring leaking air causing lifter bleed down after it sits overnight and the dealer will claim PISTON SLAP.................

Also had axle trouble, worn axle on passenger side<very common

I really dislike todays GM, they could have to best vehicles on the road but continue to do the dumbest things to make work for their dealers. I won't touch another new GM vehicle EVER. I had my fill of BS to last me a long time.

Firebrian

I suspect that the orig owner of my car didn't cycle the A/C from November to March. I myself run the A/C in my cars every opportunity I can get from Nov-March....though I really don't know if there's any benefit to "running" the system when the temperature surrounding the car is 35 deg or lower. My last ride in the car this year was late January (snow bound from Feb-mid-March). Not even sure if there's a temperature cutout that prevents operation below 30-35 deg F. Good to hear you get by with cycling A/C 2-3X per year. I always assumed I needed it 6X-8X per year to be safe. So maybe I've been overly conservative? Really don't know the answer to how long it takes to start to dry out engine and/or A/C seals.

I made it a point to avoid any cars with piston slap when I was looking to buy last. Of the half dozen cars I inspected in person, only one of them had it. Even if it's just an annoyance, I'd rather not have to listen to it. The marbly sounds from my T56 gives me plenty of other noises to listen too....lol.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

I've looked this up in the shop manual before, there is a certain ambient temp below which the compressor will not engage, something like 25-30°F, so all you get is the interior fan blowing at that point. I don't even start the engine during late October-early April storage, so there wouldn't be any opportunity to run the A/C during that period anyway. In terms of seals/gaskets in general, my daily driver '02 car developed considerably more leaks/seeps/weeps of various fluids/gaskets than my '98 ever has, despite the '98 being four years older and sitting for 5-6 months every year. It seems that the general wear and constant heat cycling of daily driving did more harm to gaskets than sitting has, in this case. My '98 has never sat for years on end without being run though, never more than 6 months at a time since I've owned it (which has been for the vast majority of it's life). When I do drive it, it's never for a short trip; it's always well warmed up prior to shutdown. I think the real concern is with cars that sit for years and years without being touched, and then suddenly are put back into service. That always seems to bring about some issues.

Of my four, only my '02 car ever had a serious case of this; my '98, '99 and '00 were/are virtually all slap-free.

Piston slap is definitely a different issue from the lifter tick mentioned by RockinWs6 above. True piston slap usually won't begin instantly on a cold start, but rather take a few moments and only happen in cold/cool weather. When ambient temps rose above 70°F, there was not a peep from my slapping '02 engine, but below that temp it would slap quite a bit during warm-up. Sometimes the slapping could be heard at idle long after engine warm up, on cold days. It never got any better or worse over the many years and 10s of thousands of miles I drove it. It was an annoyance, but didn't seem to be harmful as the engine was still very strong at 100k+.

RockinWs6

My point in the piston slap is it gets blamed for every noise in the engine. I took this WS6 to a local dealer, the lifters were clattering so bad I should have parked it. THEY CLAIMED IT WAS PISTON SLAP, I sheet you not. The problem the entire time was the o ring on the pickup tube. ONLY 1 dealer diagnosed it right and even they didn't mention the o ring. They recommended replacing the lifters! I still laugh at the insanity of it all because of a PROPERLY placed o ring, yes I said properly placed o ring. That o ring has cost consumers MEGA BUCKS Think about it sometime.

GM dealers blame piston slap on everything because "ITS NORMAL ENGINE NOISE"

Gunsr

Can't say it enough, but thanks for all of your insight. The more I think on this, the more I really want an LS based car. I like the power, and it feels great. I have also been interested in basically any fast GM car with an LS in it, so are any of the others worthy to consider?

What about the 2004-2006 GTOs? Notably I find the 2004's for sale under $10k sometimes, but usually in auto form (which I prefer manual of course). Someone told me they had weak rear ends and the 2006 was the one to get because they beefed it up, but is that true and how much so? Also, from a standpoint of general build quality are the GTOs less or more problem prone than 4th Gen Camaro/Firebirds? If I ever considered the automatic, in stock form how much difference is there in 0-60? From what I see it looks like the GTO is kind of a heavier Camaro which should ride better and have comparable speeds (which would be great since the ride was my main complaint with the Camaro).

Here's one I was thinking about going to look at.
http://www.oxmoormazda.com/inventory...X12G44L268692|
With cars in this price range I'm more comfortable as no loan would be needed and it could be a cash deal. The headlights seem a bit faded and they did a perfect job of managing to not get a picture of the pedals or the shifter and not specifying on their site. It almost looks like the pedal spacing for a manual, and the tiny sliver I can make out of the center console where the shifter is looks like the base for a manual. Guess I'll have to call them to find out. It looks like bubbling tint on the back window too, is that even possible to remove? I've seen it on many cars and it looks horrible, but I've heard it can damage your rear defroster to remove the tint.

I actually drove a GTO automatic some time ago, but it was too ragged. It had random wiring exposed on the center console, custom radio, clearly had large subwoofers in it before, very loud and not good sounding exhaust (Not like they put proper mufflers, more like a hackjob), and just in general seemed like someone ran the hell out of it (plus it was an auto). I never got to punch it to really feel the speed, it was so insanely loud that I was sure anyone within several miles would know I had and it didn't have much gas.

I found this C5 Vette, looks really good and miles are still low, but now it's an auto (Gah..)
http://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/de...ff=atempest#20

It's too far for me to just go check it out and compare, but I don't know how hard it would be to modify the transmission. I would definitely want to make it faster and firmer shifting than factory, but how hard is that to do on a car like that C5? How much would it cost to make it as RPM WS6 mentioned with one of his cars, where in drive mode it's automatic but when you drop it into the numbered gears it shifts when you tell it (I forget what this was called, but thought it was really cool when I learned you could do this and that they did it a lot more on old cars back in the day and on drag cars).

Will I even be able to buy a Corvette or any kind of these sporty cars during the spring/summer or will I be overpaying almost guaranteed? I mean for like GTOs, I look and I often see them for $15-16k which is more than I want to spend but they're often very low mile good looking ones (still usually auto though). Here's a great example of what I usually see around $15k, very nice I'm sure but I really want a manual.
http://louisville.craigslist.org/ctd/5003184461.html

Firebrian

Don't know much about GTO's but that first dealer ad is funny. Very low mileage car they state (it's over 125,000!). Fwiw the guy that sold me my 12K SS 3 years ago had a nice, later year GTO for his daily driver. The looks of a modern GTO don't do anything for me....though I like the 1967's through 1971's. The red on red GTO is just too much red imo.

For the most part, you'll pay more in summer for a performance car. It really depends on the car. The nicer ones the dealers won't give up on until later August or early September. If they still have them by late September they've probably waited too long. I wouldn't be in a rush to buy in June-August. It's still early May, you might still find something. If it's a private party selling they aren't as much in tune with seasonal selling. You still might be able to snag a good car for fair money if you're an early bird. Kentucky is not North Dakota, Connecticut (my state) or Pennsylvania so your "down" season for car bargains might be a few months shorter. You might not be getting overcharged in the summer, but you will almost certainly pay hundreds more than from November-March. And by the end of next winter, the higher mileage cars will have depreciated in value by a few more hundred dollars.

The red '99 Vette looks nice. Surprised they didn't supply a single photo of the engine bay. I would not waste your time with a transmission swap. Just find it the way you like it. Let someone else spend the $5K to $10K in upgrades...and lose 80% doing it. And if you want headers, shift kit, and other upgrades, then find the car outfitted like that. Yeah, you'll have to look at a lot of cars. But, that will make you smarter and better at diagnosing "problems." If you get to test drive 10-20 cars, you'll get a lot more aware of what's not right with a particular Vette. Just a different set of tires could make a car feel totally different "to you"...though maybe not to someone else.

While it's nice to look outside 300-500 miles of your location to see what cars are bringing, the odds of making those long trips, being very happy with the seller's 100% "accurate" description, and actually buying the car for a fair price is on the slim side. I've found it's just generally aggravating looking more than 200-300 miles away. If you can afford a fly in and drive home then that might work. I just find that in 75-90% of the cases, the seller overstates the car to the point where we can't agree on price.

Before heading off to a dealer do a BBB check on them to see if they are rated "A" or better. Learned that lesson the hard way with one particular dealer who had an F+ rating. Didn't know that to after the fact. It took me 5 months to get my $500 deposit back and I never even picked up the car.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

A lot of people seem to think that the GTO is a nicer car than the F-body, mainly due to the interior. Many people love the seats and interior design of the GTO, but personally I'm not impressed with the quality as it's only skin deep....literally. There is a common issue with seat stitching coming apart on the GTOs, as well as numerous suspension issues. Some drive shaft, rear end and paint issues have also been reported with regularity. If you do some reading in the GTO section, you'll discover that in reality they are no better/worse build quality than the F-bodies, they are just initially seen as being nicer cars due to interior materials and ride quality, and because they are a bit newer so less worn out on average. Ride quality is a big issue to you, so you may in fact really like a nice condition, low mile GTO. I would recommend giving another one a try, since it sounds like the first one you drove was pretty beat.

Over the long haul, they don't appear to be any better [mechanically] built of a car than the F-body. Not to say that the F-body is better, I would just say that both have their issues, but the F-body enjoys much greater parts availability in terms of vehicle specific items (which will be a big plus as both cars age).

If you were going to go with a GTO, I'd say to hold out for the '05-'06 years, since those have the LS2. This is the reason why you see '04s for relatively cheap, as they still have the LS1 thus are slower than the F-bodies due to their addition weight with the same power. The LS2 is a 50hp boost from the LS1 stock, so that's a big plus.

Actually, even in stock form you can manually shift the C5 or any other 4L60E auto car. The issue is that the shifts are not very fast or firm in stock form, and this is where shift speed/torque management tuning can allow for big improvements, as well as hard parts modifications such as a shift kit. All of this can be done to any 4L60E car.

What you might be referring to for the older/drag cars is a "reverse (or forward pattern) manual valve body" auto trans. This conversion can be done as well, but at that point you lose all ability to have an automatic "drive" setting where it will shift itself. You will have to always shift manually, just like a manual but without a clutch.

For a street auto that's going to be a daily driver, I'd recommend not doing the manual valve body setup. What really helps the 4L60E (F-body, C5, GTO) shift better is tuning, and then a shift kit if you want it even more firm.

Gunsr

Where do people come up with their pricing for Camaros and Corvettes? I really wonder, every time I find a nice one it's so insanely over book value it's not even reasonably close. Like this one:
http://louisville.craigslist.org/cto/4981306917.html

KBB has $8,300. I mean that's not even close...even NADA retail is $9,487. I'd be interested in one like that if I could get it closer to those numbers, but I'm sure the seller would consider offers near that "lowball" offers just because it doesn't meet their contrived idea of what it "should" be worth. Is there any way to even try to look at vehicles like that, or just pass and look for one that aren't so far off the mark?

Relative to their given KBB, NADA, etc. values what have you all paid as far as compared to book value for your Camaros/Firebirds/etc.? These cars seem to suffer severely from being overpriced by those selling them. Here's another, looks reasonably nice but the price is just too high for one with those miles even if it does look nice
http://lexington.craigslist.org/cto/4989006846.html

This one looks amazing, I love the color combo but that is priced higher than a Vette and I'd personally prefer to buy a Vette with higher miles if spending that kind of money.
http://bgky.craigslist.org/cto/5004365698.html

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

You may be concentrating too much on "book" values, which don't always apply to special interest cars that are in uniquely nice condition. The real-world price premium for very low mileage examples (such as that black SS) is much higher than what any of the "books" seem to indicate. Whether or not those cars will sell depends on the current market in your region. Around my area, a 20k mile black M6 SS would likely sell for something close to that ~$15k price point, probably around $13k-ish for a private sale deal based on comparable cars I've known to change hands recently. I do like that car, except that the driver's seat looks slightly more worn than what I would expect for 20k miles.

The 40k mile silver SS looks like a good candidate, but again the price is going to be somewhat dependent on your local market and how long the car has been for sale. $14k is a bit much, but you likely won't touch that car for the $8300 "book" price anywhere in the country, unless someone really has no idea what they have. Both the black and sliver SSs look like quality examples in proper overall visual condition for their mileage.

If you're looking for one of these ~20-40k-ish mile M6 SS cars, you're likely not going to find a really nice one for under $10k.....or depending on your local cost of living, perhaps not under $12k. Having said that, the 115k mile Z28 linked above is WAY overpriced for the mileage IMO, and I wouldn't even bother making an offer.

The higher mileage/average condition cars can be more closely held to book values as they are more common to find and they don't appeal to those of us looking for premium examples. The reason you won't find excellent condition, 20k mile SS cars for $8300 is because very low mileage examples are becoming increasingly more rare to find, and demand still exists among those of us willing to pay a certain premium; "book" value doesn't seem to take this into account. If demand starts to drop off faster than supply, then prices will come down.

If you are determined to stick to book value, then you likely won't ever find a top tier condition example, you'd have to settle for the more average cars. Even the really nice ones may not be to your liking as they still don't drive exactly like a Corvette.

Gunsr

The dealer who had the '99 Corvette I drove contacted me again this morning, they wanted to know if there was anything they could do to get me in the car. I mentioned about the price, and how I actually found a same year one with just a bit more miles for several thousand less but that I did like how it drove. I actually have not dealt with a car dealer directly completely on my own before, I usually had my father with me and he worked as a salesman years ago so he knew exactly the stuff to say and ask whereas I do not. They're not being high pressure, in fact the salesman said he didn't want to pressure me so to give it some thought today.

I'd be lying if I didn't say I really liked the car and hadn't been thinking about it a lot. I've been trying to follow the advice here and consider another, but should I consider that Corvette at any offer? I don't want to insult them since they've been very friendly and I know other dealers are total jerks and high pressure, and they are not doing that at all. I'd actually kind of prefer they were pushy so I could just be a jerk and give them the low price close to book and say "I'll pay X, because that history looks bad, needs A/C work, and needs rotors/pads - if you won't do it, I'm not interested".

If I did buy that Corvette, how badly would that owner history hurt it if I went to sell it in say 2-3 years assuming the car had maybe 65-75k miles on it then? I don't try to go into a car purchase thinking of resale, but I am trying to make sure I don't spend a lot of money on something that will be worth a lot less in the future or no one else will pay anything for in a few years. I've seen several other brands where they were maybe $8,000 used for a 80k mile example in good shape and then 3-4 years later they're fetching $4,000 and not really selling that fast. My Altima even with its miles would not be hard to sell because the manual option with the V6 is rather uncommon, and I know the tuner community likes these cars even with high miles (Admittedly the 151k isn't even near the end of its life, they go 200k+ all the time with little issue).

I think the Corvette did show something like "Service suspension" something on the information panel, but I really don't remember. It showed up for a second and then went away, I tried fidgeting with that control system but was more focused on how the car drove and didn't persist with it. If I were going to actually buy the car, I would want to make sure of that. Since it does not have active handling, I don't know what service suspension would warn on that car or how serious that is (I imagine it could potentially be bad as I know that's a death sign on a lot of old Cadillacs, but then again with no active suspension what does it even indicate?). This would almost mean going back and looking at the car again, although in the dealer's eyes I feel like this is signalling for putting the pressure on me since I'm obviously interested if I came back a second time to look at the car.

My father suggested asking what they would charge to repair the A/C proper as far as a dollar figure, so assuming I didn't have them fix it and I were to do it myself later on. I thought this could be a conflict of interest and they may give inaccurate info knowing that it might reflect on the price of the car. I'm thinking I could probably hardwall the dealer by just saying flat out the owner history concerns me too much, but if they really came down on the price should I consider it? I thought about having my trusted mechanic inspect the car and feel like any offering on the car shouldn't truly occur until that's done. But I want to be careful of telling them that, and again showing further interest so they might start hounding me to buy it further. Any suggestions for what I should tell them or do here? They want $14,880 and via a search history I can tell it was first listed at $16,880.

Going back to the Camaros though, what happens if I bought that 2000 SS with 44k miles and it was totalled by someone else hitting it? Insurance would only give book, correct? Do they ever appraise value on the cars rarity and condition ignoring stuff like those things? I feel like the answer to that is no, and that if something unfortunate happened you'd just be out that extra difference you paid. I almost wouldn't mind that price if it were a 2001 or 2002, but 2000 is going a bit more than I'd want for that kind of price. My Altima is a 2003, so all of these are technically older - but don't get me wrong, I want something with an LS-based engine now for that power that is a lot more than my car - and I know that they are worth a lot more than my car based on what they are.

All this said, I put low miles on my car a year. I could probably keep driving my Altima for at least 1-2 more years and not have any major issues (Assuming my transmission doesn't decide to further have issues on me). Although now, the whole time I'm going to be even more thinking about having an LS1 or LS2 and the sound and feel so it will make it harder (I probably shouldn't have drove that damn Corvette, now it ruined me ). I don't have a garage, but kind of felt like I'd never buy a really beautiful excellent condition car until I found a home with a garage (the home purchase is something in the next couple of years). This makes me worry about leaving a gorgeous car in the drive just for hailstones or other junk to ruin it. Although I've heard Corvettes do not dent from hailstones because of the fiberglass? It has only happened one time in the area, but hearing and seeing it really hurt even though it didn't actually dent the thick paint on my Buick at the time but did dent the much newer Nissan's paint.

EDIT: Here's the actual Carfax for that Corvette if anyone thinks it raises a particular red flag (I know it was said before, but technically a one or two owner could be bad too right?). Is it possible that maybe the one who wrecked it was told by their significant other they needed to sell it, or that they couldn't handle the car maybe? And then the next one as well?
http://www.carfax.com/VehicleHistory...&partner=VSR_0

EDIT 2: I think you guys are right. Looking at that Carfax closely, you can almost tell it was probably hit in the front and it's possible that it's changed hands because of issues that might stem from that. I think a few of those owners are actually just dealers, but there are still 3 or 4 actual owners. Here's the Carfax for another that is out of my price range but would be perfect otherwise. Guess I'll keep on truckin' to find an LS based car. Thanks again for all the help all.
http://www.carfax.com/VehicleHistory...&partner=VSR_0

Firebrian

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/Used+Cars/cars+under+16000/Chevrolet/Camaro/East+Lyme+CT-06333?endYear=2002&engineCode=8CLDR&engineCodes=8C LDR&listingType=used&listingTypes=used&makeCode1=C HEV&makeCode2=PONT&maxMileage=30000&maxPrice=16000 &mmt=[PONT[FBIRD[]][]CHEV[CAM[]][]]&modelCode1=CAM&modelCode2=FBIRD&photosOnlyActual= true&pricesOnly=true&searchRadius=0&showcaseOwnerI d=1360232&sortBy=derivedpriceASC&startYear=1998&Lo g=0

That's my autotrader link for nice F-bodies. I'll comment on 2 SS automatics. The white 2000 with 14Kmi at $15.5K has been for sale for 1-2 yrs. It's not cheap enough yet. The 1999 with 9Kmi from Albany, NY at $13.5K seems very reasonable. That one has sat for a couple of months. If 6 speeds they'd be worth another 8-12% more. Fwiw I value my 2 owner '99 SS M6 with 16K miles at $13K to $14K. I'd sell it tomorrow if someone came by with $14K. It doesn't matter where those other sellers get their pricing. In 80% of the cases they are way off the mark. The fact that it was dad's old car doesn't make it worth 20-30% more.

For any car I've bought over the years it has been replacement cost more than book value on what my insurance co. has used to settle any claims. My '99 SS probably "books" around $9K. Good luck finding one for that price. I have the proof of what I paid, what the market typically commands, and photos of its condition. No doubt there are some insurance companies that go by book value. If this is a 2nd car for you there's always the option of insuring it much more cheaply through a collector car insurance company. But those also come with 3K to 5K annual mile limits as well.

That '99 Vette is "your first" car....at least one that you liked. Like any of us, you have focused on it. The first LS-1 I ever looked at was a two owner 2000 Vert automatic with 74K miles. It was listed at my local dealer 4 years ago for $12.5K. That was WAY over book. I test drove it any ways. It pulled hard right when braking, it had real piston slap, and a whining rear end. Of course they said they could try to fix them all. When I came back a 2nd time unannounced I put a paint gauge to the quarter panels and found the right side was mostly repainted, esp around the wheel lips. In checking the hood closer I saw fish eyes and fuzzy bubbles starting to form. At that point, I decided to pass on the car no matter what. They eventually lowered the price all the way down to $9.5K, eventually offering the car on Ebay for $9K. I don't know what they finally got for it. While I was infatuated with that local car (it was "my" first SS), it was also not right. And I hadn't seen enough cars yet to know just how not right it probably was.

Firebrian

The dealer that has that '99 Vette is a Chevy dealer. I'd want more info on just what that accident was back in the fall of 2002. That owner had the car 2 months, banged it up, and sold it a month later. Now either the car was never right for them again, or they were so fussy they couldn't stand to live with a repaired car. But, I would dig deeper into what was done to the car. As a Chevy dealer they can provide the GM service history on that car that might have more items than the car fax shows (I've done that before). Was the accident a minor fender-bender or something that could have twisted the frame, etc.?

The dealer will continue to keep you in play as long as they don't have another buyer lined up. You certainly can't make a final offer w/o your mechanic getting involved. It's a long shot car though as the 6 owners (1st one being a corporate lease) and accident history will always follow it. But, that doesn't make it a bad car....just a tougher car to sell. If those guys don't know your mechanic you could have him test drive it when you're not around. Keep on doing your searches on other cars. If those guys continue to call you ask them what are they doing about the car's flaws?

Gunsr

Well, they will probably fix the A/C (Shot of freon) and the vibrating when braking (new rotors pads, probably some cheap stuff). Based on how he asked me I'm sure they would. I just don't think they'd lower their price. But yeah, the number of owners and the wreck all weigh too much against it. I don't want to be the next owner who puts 10k miles on the car, realizes it has problems and then turns around and has to sell it with the same crappy history it has now. Perhaps it will take time, but I'll convince myself to just wait.

You're definitely right about being obsessed with it though, it looks so good and was really the first satisfied feeling of power I've had driving an LS1. I'm sure the Camaros were fast too, but the vibration in the bodies and other quirks made me much less happy with them and I couldn't see myself owning them and being happy the way I would with the Corvette. Whether it means I can find a nice good condition Camaro/Firebird, GTO, Corvette, or even CTS-V - I think I'll just keep looking. It's not the easy option mentally though. The only V8 car I've had was that DeVille and despite being a big cruiser car it still was really fun to nail it and hear that engine open up. All the cars I've driven otherwise have been V6s (Never owned any four bangers here, not a fan - although I do like a WRX/STi), while I still love the sound of my engine now I've had a taste of what a real V8 is like - and I'd like more

I've looked at Mustang GTs and even Cobras and they're more show than go, plus the build quality is dismal. I think I found one in the several I looked at over the years that didn't have a service engine light on. I'll admit I think Challenger R/Ts are kind of cool, but if I'm spending that kind of dough it will be on a nice used Corvette at this point. I kind of like the C5 more than the C6 for looks, though I honestly would be happy with either. The C5 is just the one that as a kid I always thought was so cool and always wanted. Kind of hard to fight the inner kid and years of being obsessed with Corvettes and the "Some day I'll have one" and then fighting back the chance to do so. But I want to do it right, and it will be worth it when I do. It's kind of why I lean to Corvette over any of the other options, but for price constraint reasons might end up with one of the others and likely still be very happy. Although my ultimate preference is for a ZO6. I honestly cannot think of any car in the world that I'd want to replace that with (Maybe ZR1? Stuff I doubt I'll ever be able to afford), I hold little respect for German cars and think their reputation is extremely overrated. I like the old M5s and won't say they're not fast, but they're overpriced and unreliable. I'll take reliable American made power over that any day.

Firebrian

The 1997-2002 Vettes, and 1998-2002 F bodies are well depreciated now, especially the 1997-2000 model years. As long as the car stays nice and minimal mileage added, they are holding their values. In fact, my car has gone up in value since I bought it in Jan. 2012. I have to figure that the rising economy from 2011-2015 has lifted even the used car market, especially performance and classic cars. There were some great values during the price crash of 2009-2011 in classic cars. How the economy does from 2016-2020 will have quite a bit of bearing on how the nice 1998-2002 F bodies (or Vettes) hold their values. And with the newer 400+ hp performance cars still in the $20K - $50K range, that sort of puts a floor under the price of our 300-350 hp F bodies and Vettes. As WS6 RPM has mentioned, it's hard to find a quality-lower mileage car for under $10K.

Gunsr

What an interesting update. So I mentioned they called me this morning about the Corvette, I just searched again on Autotrader - it's now listed another $2,000 less. So it is now advertised at $12,880, down from $14,880, which was down from $16,880 they started asking for it. If only the history wasn't questionable on it, I'd be all over it. I'm almost even more suspicious of the car now that the price has been dropped so readily. Why would they need to do this on a great looking '99 Corvette 6-speed with 56k miles? Do they know something about its horrible past and want to just be rid of it? As you guys said, this seems like prime time to sell these kinds of cars so no idea why they'd cut the price out so much.

I feel at this price it will be gone before long, so at least I won't be able to ponder on it. I still need to call the guy back and let him know, but just curious what anyone else's thoughts are on that price cut. I suspect now that call earlier today was to see if they could haggle me down from $14,880 to $13,500 or something - before they dropped the price out. As far as the accident it had in its past goes, could someone manage to ruin a car that bad and not get a rebuilt title? That's the only way I can imagine an accident being so severely affecting of a car. But it does seem like that with such low miles driven by each owner.

Firebrian

Ahh, the pot sweetens. It would seem that car is buyable at $12K....and maybe with your concerns about AC and brakes included. That won't cost them squat anyways if they just recharge the AC and turn down rotors. And if the accident was just a dent with a fiberglass body panel replaced, who really cares at that price? At the $10-$12K level it's really more about what the car is right now. How functional is it? How does it look? What will you end up having to fix? If the drive train and suspension are sound, that's the most important. At this price a few more stone chips and scratches aren't going to kill you. How much cheaper can a 56K mile Vette get? It's only about the remaining life of the car and what it will cost over that time. It's now a potential "learning" Vette where downside is pretty limited.

Maybe they need more room on the lot? They took their best shot at you and some others and it didn't work. They've had it for around 2 months now, though we know March is a tough month to sell an over-priced Vette. They know what they paid on it and they are still going to profit. Figure if they've had several serious buyers on the car and no one has bit, it just might be time to cut and run. I would figure you'll end up having to pay $1,000-$1,500 on "things" over the next 2 years. That could be fluid flushes, AC work, brakes/suspension, tires. In looking at the on-line photos again that looks very clean, even the engine bay looks mint. The under-hood pad shows almost no staining. No doubt they detailed it to the max. They probably have one more price drop left in them.

For autotrader '97 to '02 vettes under $13K and <100K miles, there are only 21. The only way they have mileage <56K is to be presently smashed, flood cars, or reconstructed cars. You don't usually get much for $12K in a <75K miles C5 Vette. If the car wasn't abused by those 6 owners and the accident was minimal, then you get a much lower risk car that is dependent on its drivability and looks vs. its paper trail or heritage. The first owner leased it for 42 months and 18K miles. But, it's also not in their interest to return a beat up bucket of bolts when the lease is up. There is lots of incentive to return a fully functional and nice car. Downside is limited unless there's major mechanical or electrical work lurking there.....your mechanic should be able to find anything gross.

These guys are Chevy dealers and probably Vette experts. So they know what's what. I'd ask for the GM service history. And then get my mechanic in there and be ready to offer $12K assuming you can't find >$1K in stuff to fix. Dealers can't sell a car to the public with an emissions code violation, can they? But must find out the particulars on that accident. Somebody repaired the car. From the Car Fax it looks like owner might have been on a trip at that time in Indiana. In 2002 this car was probably worth $25K to $30K. Significant damage could have been worth fixing. It's history from 2002-2006 is a little "iffy." But, at least it's had only 1 owner since 2006. That guy was satisfied with the car. Is it normal to replace a crank pully/balancer pully and drive belt at 36K miles? Could that be a sign that the car's engine took a hit? Is it still the original engine? In the dealer's writeup they call this a clean car with "history"....not your typical auction car. Well, it may not have been to auction, but a lease + 6 owners, and 4 of those years it seemed to flip between dealers, is not a ton better than an auction car. If it has "history," then let the dealer show you some owner history/GM maintenance. I'd swag they paid around $10-11K for this on a trade-in. I would agree that priced in the $12's it probably won't last.

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/Used+Cars/cars+under+13000/Chevrolet/Corvette/East+Lyme+CT-06333?endYear=2002&engineCode=8CLDR&engineCodes=8C LDR&listingType=used&listingTypes=used&makeCode1=C HEV&maxMileage=100000&maxPrice=13000&mmt=[CHEV[CORV[]][]]&modelCode1=CORV&photosOnlyActual=true&pricesOnly= true&searchRadius=0&showcaseListingId=0&showcaseOw nerId=1360232&sortBy=mileageASC&startYear=1997&Log =0

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Frankly, I wouldn't bother paying the premium for one of these really exceptional examples if I was just going to use it as a daily driver, mostly because the effects of weathering will knock the car down to more average condition in short order, so better to just buy one that's already taken this hit.

Having said that, when I DO buy a premium condition car, its purpose is generally to be a garage queen/nice weather pleasure driver, and as such I insure it as a show car. This type of insurance allows for an agreed value, and while there are limits (appraisal/documentation needed for extremely high values), generally you can more than cover the initial purchase price premium with said insurance. For example, I initially insured my '98 for $20k, since at the time it would cost at least that much to find a comparably nice example. This is quite a bit more than what I paid for the car, but I didn't want to be "forced" to hold out for a great deal if something happened to it; at $20k I could buy another one as nice or better without spending much time hunting.

Collector/show car insurance isn't something you can have for a daily driver though, so none of this would really apply to you. But I thought it was worth mentioning as it explains why some of us are willing to pay a premium for a top tier car, that we plan to use sparingly, even if "normal" insurance wouldn't cover it.

I would caution you to not place too much importance on getting an '01+ example. There are a lot of people who have "drank the Kool-Aid" on this, so to speak. As someone who has owned every model year of LS1 F-body (other than 2001), I can tell you that there is no magic to the '01+ cars. My 2002 wasn't any better overall than my '98, '99 or 2000. In fact, there are some negatives about the later model years, some are a matter of preference, that make them less desirable to me. One of these big issues is the roof panel bubbles, which was touched on earlier. This is non-issue for the early and mid-year '98 cars, but for very late '98s through the end of '02 production, the roof panels will need to be replaced (or you'll have to avoid lots of sun exposure.) This repair is a hassle to me, and quite expensive unless you find a good price on a used panel. There are a bunch of little things that have changed over the course of these five model years of LS1s, but none if it is major and if I had never owned one of these cars I wouldn't really have developed any preferences for these small items. But as I have owned each of them at this point, I have to say that overall I have no preference for the later model years - due to items even beyond the roof panel. No point in going into all these little things unless you were really serious about a Camaro, but I'm sure I could find some old posts of mine that cover much of these differences - in fact I think Firebrian might have already linked one of them earlier in this thread.

At $12.8k, it's starting to sound like a good deal IMO. Things are generally pretty expensive in my area, but I can tell you that you won't find a 56k mile M6 C5 in my region for under $13k unless it has some issues. It sounds like there are a couple things wrong with this one (A/C, brakes), so perhaps the price is now proper for it's condition. If you want one that's perfect with comparable miles and options, you won't find it for ~$12k.

Gunsr

I wanted to ask here since it has all the context of where I've asked before, but what do you guys think of this Firebird?
http://louisville.craigslist.org/ctd/5032359876.html

I'm not crazy about those wheels, they look kinda ugly on that car if you ask me (Maybe if it was black they'd look better?). But this is an '02 Firebird - they claim it's a WS6 Trans Am with all the options. It does look nicely equipped, it looks like it has power passenger seat too. And I can't say I've ever seen a light colored interior like that on a Camaro or Firebird, seems so uncommon. This is a long drive for me to go look at (150 miles one way, about 2.5 hours of pure highway driving), but considering I don't want a garage queen and I would daily drive whatever it is does this sound like one to consider?

It is at a dealer, though it looks like a small one. My own personal thoughts, I certainly like the look of the Firebirds over a Camaro. Don't get me wrong, Camaros look great but the Firebrids have a real cool unique styling on them that I think makes them stand out a bit more. If it drives proper, I'd be willing to consider it instead of a Corvette. Been researching Corvette pricing and checking regularly and they are just so expensive and either too old or automatics and not the manual I strongly prefer.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

I don't like the wheels either, it would look much better with the stock wheels or several other aftermarket options IMO.

The buttons you see on the passenger seat are for the inflatable lumbar support.

The interior is a stock color, RPO "52I" (Taupe Leather). It's certainly not as common as Dark Gray ('99 and earlier) and Ebony ('00 and up), but it was available with all exterior colors except for RPO 13U (silver) as far as I remember. Red (81U) looks nice with the Taupe, but either way it's a matter of opinion.

The car looks good overall for 110k miles. You can verify whether it's an original WS6 car by simply checking the SPID sticker on the driver's door for RPO "WS6". Also, make sure the VIN number on that sticker matches the VIN plate on the dash.

Having said all that, I don't think it's the car for you. Other than cosmetics, this is exactly the same thing as a Camaro SS. You might like the appearance better, but this was not your complaint about the Camaros you drove; what you consistently mentioned was that you didn't like the ride quality and overall driving experience. There will be no difference at all in ride quality and driving experience between a same year/same trans/same condition stock WS6 and SS. The only thing that would make them "feel" different from each other would be modifications and/or condition/history of care and maintenance. You said you had driven some pretty nice condition Camaros and the driving experience still didn't do it for you, so I doubt that a 110k mile WS6 car will leave you with any different impression.

Considering it's so far away, I'm not sure I can see any cause for you to spend the time and effort.

Wait until you can spend a bit more and go with the C5 IMO; it seems like those are the only ones that have met your expectations so far. Maybe try another GTO as well, if you can find one locally.