Gunsr

I've found guides that talk about what differences there were between the years but didn't see one that went in detail for the model years on what to look for. I'm going to look at a 2001 Camaro SS 6 speed with 120k miles that's all stock and looks clean with an extra set of clean rims and tires for $7500 OBO. I know some of the standard stuff to look for on a car and to check it out from a cold start, etc. but is there anything specific to the year or these later ones I should beware of? I know the window motors often have problems on Camaros so I know to check that, and the T-tops. Someone told me to look out for some kind of alarm security bypass that some people do if they have problems with the alarm, what is that and how can I tell if it has been done?

Any thing else to look for? Is this a decent price for a Camaro SS?

RockinWs6

Check the oil carefully, I bought a 01 WS6 that was dead quiet until I changed the oil. The oil that came out had a funny black look to it. Yiou could see it had something other than regular oil in it. The lifters started making terrible noise with regular 10-30 in it. Here the oring on the oil pickup tube was old and worn letting air into the oil stream. Dealer refused to fix it.

Unfortunately my experience buying cars over the past 45 years tells me to believe very little what someone says and let the car speak for itself.

I'd check all the oils and be sure rear pinion seal isn't leaking badly. Take it out on the highway and see if it has any unusual vibrations in 5th and 6th gear. The steering racks tend to leak on these because no one ever changes the power steering fluid AND the power steering coolers fail causing antifreeze to mix with the powr steering and power steering fluid into the rad. Check them all.

Like any used car you know there are going to be things you'll only discover after you own it. As far as the security trouble goes the wires that run up to the Key cylinder break off. Then what most people do is unplug the connector at the bottom of the steering column and insert the proper resistor to satisfy the security feature. Also check the tilt wheel feature, some the pivot pins come out and you can move the steering down to the 7 oclock position. Others the 4 retainer blots come loose and the steering wheel will feel loose and floppy. Also the stock radio's some loose their displays and will only show parts of it. At that mileage figure its going to need new frt wheel bearings if they were never changed AND listen closely to the rear while driving it because the axle bearings are know for failures too.

overall they are solid cars if taken care of BUT can be complete money pits if neglected and beat on. One other important thing is to check the oil once a week =until you get know the car. All 6 of mine used ALOT of oil.

Firebrian

That price could be strong for 120K miles unless it's very clean, 1-2 owner, many highway miles, maintenance and fluid changes kept up to date, no accidents, etc. A nice running and shifting 6 speed with those kind of miles is not that easy to find. You can probably find automatics with <70K miles for $7500. If the original clutch is still in there, it would pushing the normal lifetime limits. Check the color of the clutch fluid in the master cylinder. If it's black and full of carbon flecks, who knows how gunked up the clutch hydraulics are. If it's clean....another sign of a fastidioius owner or a recent clutch/master upgrade. My own preference is to shoot for the "free" mileage offered in these cars with <65K miles. The dealer price guides do not give adequate value for lower mileage/well taken car of cars. You could possibly find a car with 40K less miles and it would only cost $1K more. That's great value in my opinion.

There are numerous threads around here over the past year on what to look for. The 2001 worked out a lot of the bugs/weak spots in the 1998-2000 models. What to look for includes: a noisy & beat up 6 speed, piston slap during cold startup (quite normal, but still a pita), bubbling roof paint from too much sun exposure (a common problem), weak window and rear antennae motors, fluids that were rarely changed (esp the "100K mile" coolant, differential, trans fluid.) Check for any signs of mods done to the car - the more pristine the better (typical mods would be new shifter, performance air intake lid, strut tower brace, under-carriage braces, etc.). The "sloppy" factory shifters were taller and had a "kink" in them. The aftermarket versions would have straight or curved shafts. If the 1-4 "skip" shift feature is not overridden it's probably pretty unmodified....though the jumper can be removed in a few minutes. Some of the simpler bolt on mods are a good thing to have since the car performs better. I mention the unmodified things only to suggest the car might be less beat on if the owner never pursued additional HP or performance. Color matters in 2001 if you have SOM (worth a nice premium). Additional SLP options all add value (performance exhaust, hurst shifter, 12 stack CD changer, chrome wheels (w/o corrosion), leather interior, Auburn differential (some might consider this option a negative), SS floor mats - key fobs - car cover.

Check the AC closely. I've been burned there before. The seller could have leaks and just recharged the system to buy some time. Make sure it blows real cold. Rub your hand under the AC compressor. If the car still has the original receiver/drier (it's stenciled on top with part #'s, etc. - repro's tend to have no stenciling) it's a sign the system may have never been touched....increasing the odds that you'll have the first $500-$800 repair bill. Check for a quality set of tires on the car....ideally ones that are set up for the driving you intend to do (summer only, cold weather or rain/snow, etc.). Make a note of the tire brand/model/size and we'd be happy to help. At 120K miles the driver's seat should be ripped along the side and quite worn....unless they were meticulous in getting in and out of that car. Was the car winter driven resulting in lots of underside salt, ice, and rain exposure? A lack of stone chips on the front end, hood, and windshield would suggest a very caring driver. A ton of them would suggest possibly just a lot of winter driving when sand and stones were on the roads.

Make sure the car is really an SS by the SLP options door tag, the list of RPO codes, SLP options sheet, etc. People do fake these things. You can google and find that info easily. By with a price tag at $7500 obo it may not matter all that much if it's a Z28 with hood and badges added or it's a real SS. I'd be more concerned about the car's condition and how much more quality life it will give me. Good writeup by RockinWS6 above!

https://ls1tech.com/forums/search.php?searchid=28543099

Some posts in the link above dealing with "what to look for." And the thread below with great stuff from RPM WS6....including all the quirks and differences between model years.

https://ls1tech.com/forums/new-ls1-o...-firebird.html

Gunsr

Thanks for the info. I actually already looked at the car, it looked pretty clean. I'm not a complete gearhead but I'm also not a fool, I do know generally what to look for. Did not smell any oil smell or hot smell. Fluids seemed ok, but I'm not sure what I'm looking for here TBH. I asked if he had records and he didn't have much. It had a nice set of Continental tires on it, the extra set of wheels also had a decent set of Goodyear tires on it though he said may need to be rebalanced. Motor windows both worked fine, didn't seem slow. It had right at about 122k miles. A/C was cold, it had an aftermarket radio in it that seemed to work just fine (I'm not too critical on the radio TBH). Power driver seat worked fine, didn't test passenger seat but I assume it's fine since it's mechanical. Headlights were only mildly faded, not much but you can see it's starting to. Security light was lit, I asked and it's the VATS issue. It has not been bypassed, so something that I would want to address correctly.

Unfortunately the car had been driven so it was not a cold start. I am a little suspicious here, the guy was very nice and seemed pretty chill. I once looked at an SVT Mustang and this dude wouldn't even take the car around the block (with him driving it, not me) without "cash in hand" - and I'm not some 16 year old kid looking to joyride...anyway, he has a G8 GT 6-speed and said he no longer needed the Camaro. Seemed reasonable enough, except he also had a diesel truck that sounded to me like a DD. I'm a little suspicious that when I said I wanted to come out and then some time was needed to do some things before I could come out, that might have been "some time for the car to warm up". I really don't know how I'm supposed to tell a seller I want them to let the car sit and let me see it cold start though, obviously I'd have to come back and look another time but he may have genuinely had a reason for driving it and not trying to hide anything. He said he bought it originally to save gas and be fun to drive coming from a manual Corolla (I laughed in my head about save gas and Camaro SS...not a concern for me, but just lol anyway).

I'm coming from a Nissan VQ35 based 6-speed manual (Altima sedan) and comparing it to the Camaro the Altima is far smoother. I have nearly 160k miles on my Altima but it drives great, I'd just like something even faster (And in Nissan that would be a 370z - too expensive for me). I'm pretty sure the shifter was stock, it looked "crooked" to me and I don't think there was necessarily anything wrong with it but the adjustment from driving a Japanese car for years to an American one made me probably seem like a crappy driver. The gas pedal feels heavy and like it only moves about two inches or so (Compared to my Altima with a light gas pedal that moves what feels like 6 inches if I floor it).

Is the 3rd gear on these cars pretty high? I'm used to being able to be rolling about 35 in 3rd in my Altima and punching it and I get very minimal bog and then it takes off nicely. The Camaro felt like I was in 5th trying to do this and really crawled up while in 3rd a bit slowly and I double checked and pretty sure I was in 3rd. Is the pattern just like that on these cars or does it sound like it's been modded or something? I did check for true SS code, it did have WU8. Didn't see Y2Y though. I think the seller may have put 10-15k miles on it. Hadn't changed the spark plugs and with no previous history I have no idea if past owner may have done so. Oh, skip shift has been installed. According to him, previous owner did something funny with the exhaust. I looked and didn't see anything unusual, sounded a little loud but not bad at all. He also said these cars are kind of a pain to work on, is that true? I know my Altima can hit 200k miles without much fuss, it's more just that I want more power. I'd go with a Corvette if I could find one for a decent price, but they're all way over book.

Are Camaros like this kind of a bit noisy and "rattley" on the expressway? I think it's more than anything just that I feel the engine thumping in a way that my V6 doesn't, so not sure it's an issue. It's quite possible what I think is rough and rattley is totally normal for Camaros so is where I'm coming from likely to think this? I know these aren't going to be luxury cars or anything, but for me I'm not sure what is an acceptable level of "roughness" if you will. I hate myself every time I've tried to drive a Camaro I'm a wimp, I always feel too nervous to punch it which is stupid because I do this all the time in my Altima and I probably would do it if it were mine. But then again it feels safe and controlled, the Camaros feel more like they could break loose and be a bit scary if you stomped it. I also feel like any seller is going to be pissed at me for gunning it. I remember I drove a '94 Z28 automatic and when I punched it the thing went sideways shifting to second. As I recall, that also had a heavy gas pedal. I mean from the granny shifting I did, I doubt I even would make the synchros grind if they were going to.

Sorry for wall of text, but does this sound like a car to make an offer on, check out a second time, or just pass completely? To give a perspective, there is a 2005 CTS-V for $11,500 that has 124k miles and in good shape but had no work done to the rearend for the common problems I know the '04-'05 have. I was a bit suspicious of that one for the money because it was claimed "never driven hard". Who buys a CTS-V to not drive it hard? I guess this means with any of these performance cars, I'm better off to get really low miles? Like 60k or something because even what I still consider low-ish miles of 120k or so is a lot for this kind of car and the way they're driven?

Firebrian

3rd gear on these cars is plenty strong from 35 mph on up. You could have easily been in 5th where power wouldn't come on until well over 70 mph. When getting used to the T56 I found myself missing 3-4-5 quite often. When cruising on the highway in 5th, I'd often attempt a downshift to 4th for some quick power....and get 6th. A shift from 3rd to 4th would often end up wrong in either 2nd or 6th. Sheesh. But those were cars with stock shifters. I've been a lot more consistent with a short throw and learning to shift forward with a "semi-open palm" and pull back with a "cupped hand." Too many mistakes on T56's with an octopus grip on the shifter. Without digging into my accelerator pedal, I don't think I use more than 2" of travel for most everything.

Y2Y code would mean extra SLP options. So you don't have any. That's fine. With the back part of the engine under the cab, those rear two cylinders are a pain to get at. The tranny has to come down to do anything with the transmission, clutch or slave cylinders other than bleeding the system or fluid changes. That's another + for the A4. The LS-1 is good for 200K miles when properly maintained. The T56 might give out by 150K if well maintained. When abused, they might not even make it 60K miles. Some have gone the 200K miles too.

Yes, I'd call Camaro's a bit noisy and "rattly," even on the expressway. If the road is smooth though, they should be pretty darn quiet even up to 100+ mph. The SS suspension is stiff and it will pick up every gap and line in the road. Continental tires are known for giving a pretty smooth ride and good grip in wet and dry conditions. I can't relate to the engine thumping issue on your SS. I never notice any sounds out of my engine....probably because the rattles out of the T56 drown it out. The T56 is known for often being "rattly," especially at idle in neutral or up to 1500-2500 rpm (neutral rollover noise from the gears net getting fully loaded/seated until higher rpm). These are not the tightest of bodies so rattles from the body work too. My car rattles from the right side and it's not the door. Every bump is an experience as the live rear axle shudders. But on a smooth road these cars should feel like silk. The Z28 A4 is a much smoother car from my experiences.

Don't feel bad about not punching the Camaro. I've owned my latest SS for 3 years and I've never done even a weak burnout, never broke traction on a curve or straightaway (never drive in the rain either), never had RPM over 4800 other than 1 time I missed a strong 2nd to 3rd shift at higher rpm and slammed it into 1st by mistake....lol. I've never fully gunned any M6 I was test driving. I'm a wimp too. When I owned an '98 Z28 A4 I mashed that pedal to the floor all the time. It was better equipped to handle that, especially with 3.23's.. The M6 with 3.42's is a bit more unforgiving, and you can break something being stupid. I'd rather keep that money in my pocket.

The odds are in your favor with a 60K car having far less abuse performed on it than a 122K mile car. And your current owner doesn't seem to know a lot about what the previous owner(s) did and why. That's why I prefer buying from a chain of private owners rather than a dealership where you get nothing from the previous owner. Lack of maintenance history is sort of crucial for a 120K mile car. I'd really want to know how well this was taken care of. Maybe you can see some local dealers or private sellers who have a '98-'02 LS-1 Firebird/Camaro for sale and test drive them. I've done it just to compare cars. If you've only driven one 6 speed it's hard to compare that to anything else. Your Altima is luxury car compared to this unrefined beast. I'd have a problem with a seller warming up the car if I told them not to. Every LS-1 I've gone to see I've told the owner to let me see a cold start. If they don't want to do that, then we can't go any further. The owner/maintenance history on your SS is pretty weak. My gut feel is that this owner realizes the potential maintenance costs approaching and wants to pass that on to someone else. I would too....lol.

Vettes are overpriced with 120K miles imo. I'd go for the lower mile versions at 20K to 60K miles. I think Vette buyers are even touchier about higher mileage cars than Camaro SS owners. I like the '02 and '03 Z06's with 25K-35K miles going for $20K-$22K. They don't get much cheaper than $18K unless beat on or with heavy miles.

RockinWs6

Don't buy that car until you start it cold and are satisfied with how it sounds, If you heard my WS6 cold and didn't know better you would never buy it. For the 1st 2-5 mins it knocks taps ticks farts misses and does just about everything it shouldn't, after that its a ***** cat that effin moves LMAO.

celtsean

iTrader: (1)

Yeah if I was selling my 2000 TA I would never let anyone hear it start cold. Lol. It's kind of misleading. That start up piston slap sounds hideous. But after 5 min it's smooth so... Yeah , you want to hear a cold start. But I wouldn't let piston slap be the sole reason detering you from a purchase. Depending on price. 7500 is what I paid for mine when it had 60xxx miles in 2009 .But it all depends what area you're in and what's available . Shop around.

Gunsr

I've thought some more on it, and I just am not happy with the ride quality. This makes probably the 4th or 5th Camaro I've looked at, and I don't even look at the ones that look ragged out. The vibration you feel from the engine, stiff gas pedal, the uncomfortable shifter (I have never driven a car where I go into 5th when I mean for 3rd), the rattles and road noise. I think I just can't accept the quality of drive of a Camaro, I've driven nothing but cars that don't drive like that my whole life so it feels wrong to drive something like that. Like something is seriously wrong, but based on what I've seen and heard from many others - this is probably a completely normal Camaro with nothing wrong. The nature of the beast I guess you could say.

I only once have looked at a Corvette, a '95 6-speed and it seemed smoother though very hard to get in and out of (and I'm young so I don't mind, but even I think it's a pain). I didn't get to drive it though so I really don't know how much different it drives, but at idle it felt smoother. I'm really at a loss, I don't know what car to buy now. I like my Altima, but I want faster. I've looked at Infintis and most are marginal speed improvements over my car and cost a lot more and I'm not sure I'm a fan of their looks, I see a lot of tools driving them.

I drove an Audi S4 that I loved, but German car reliability terrifies me and I don't trust it for a minute. But it had the 340 hp V8, AWD, and was smooth and handled nicely. It's the kind of car I'd want, I just don't want that horrible maintenance cost. I want something 0-60 in 5.0 sec or less, but what's even out there that could satisfy this? I feel like almost every option that could is going to cost north of $30k and I've been looking at under $20k used. As it is, I honestly can't justify the expense for a car that's either marginally faster or the same speed as mine or that is faster but then drives like it's barely held together (compared relative to my Altima).

I guess I'm probably just screwed. I'm too picky about what I want in a car, so I guess I'll just drive my Altima until it dies. I have no idea what I'll ever replace it with when it goes though.

Firebrian

Sorry to hear that the SS didn't work out. Maybe expecting a 120K mile, worn out Camaro SS suspension to be "smooth" is asking a lot. And the 6 speed probably accentuates it. It's possible the less aggressive suspension in a Z28 could give an acceptable ride. As 2nd owner on a 1998 Z28 automatic I put 90K miles on it and always felt that car was pretty "smooth" right until the day I sold it with 115K miles. No doubt at the 115K point there was a lot more suspension slop and rattles. I don't even recall that I ever changed the shocks. All other suspension components were original. My daily driver over those same 8 years was a fwd 1996 Lincoln Continental (260 hp) riding on Michelins. That car was very smooth. And I didn't notice a huge change when getting into that Z28 once or twice a week. At the time I had all-season BFG's or something similar on that Z with a very low 120 mph rating (T rated). That's the way that car was sold on day 1 (fuel governor programed to S/D at 115 mph). Other options could be to find a car set up with more forgiving shocks and tires, though that's probably a tall order. If I had a car I knew I was going to keep for many years, I'd probably put softer shocks and easy-going "50K mile" tires on it. I got my Z with 22K miles (new rear tires) and changed the rear tires twice, the fronts once.

For $7500 I think you can find a pretty clean, 1-2 owner '98-'00 Z28 with 45K-60K miles. It might take a while too. Fwiw, my '98 Z28 was a hardtop. And that too contributed to a lot less rattles and a more comfortable/solid ride. The TTop cars are just one step away from being a convertible. That would be recommendation: find a clean, lower mileage Z28 hardtop.

Gunsr

I'm not sure a lower mile one would help. I drove a '98 Z28 where the driver replaced tons of stuff on it, and it had maybe 75k miles? I forget exactly. It should've been as good as one like that could be and I still noticed the same kinds of rattles and way of driving.

Honestly I think I'm just ruined by nice riding cars. My first car was a Buick and second car was a Cadillac (Riviera and a DeVille). I don't mind the way new sporty cars ride when they're kind of stiff like Focus ST and stuff, but they're just not any faster than my Altima and not worth the price IMO. I know some people I hang out with sometimes would tell me to buy a GTI or something, but they look so slow and I really hate the little hatchback community that thinks that's the perfect thing every car should be. I like coupes more than anything else, but everything made anymore either sucks or is just too expensive (and some are both).

Why does it feel like cars have been on a negative decline for years now? I don't even desire most new cars, other than maybe a brand new Camaro SS, CTS-V, or Corvette.

RockinWs6

My WS6 has 94k on it and it drives like new. It also will rock your world out on any road. Its a freakin blast to drive, I can't imagine anyone not falling in love with the power and sound this car makes. On the interstate it just rules the highway, some dood in a new Mercedes roadster thought he was going to ruffle my feathers a bit. Didn't happen baby! hehe this car blows my mind. With F1 tires on it <very low drag> it just moves so fast in any direct you point it feels like superman is pushing it down the road. Plus it gets 30mpg on the highway, and looks like pure sex on wheels doing it. I get younger every time I drive it.

Gunsr

I feel similar to you described when I drive my Altima. I can't help but gun it when I drive, it's really a blast. I know I'm in the wrong place for this, but I love the sound of the VQ35 and its aggressive intake sound. When I drove the SS, it felt more raw and untamed, as though if I were to stomp the pedal the engine would just make the car go all over the road. Did not feel very confidence inspiring as I drove it. I would be daily driving the SS if I bought it, and as I live somewhere that both rain and snow are common occurrences (snow not as much) I think it would be a really poor choice considering how it feels just in normal dry weather. I also hate working on cars, and prefer that the most I need to do is oil changes, topping off fluid, and changing rotors/pads as needed. I notice some people don't "love" working on cars, but don't seem to mind it but I actively dislike it and would prefer to just pay someone else to do the dirty work if it involves doing much under the hood.

I drove a 2005 350z some time ago, with about 110k miles on it and it drove nicely. It was very stiff though and did have a lot of road noise and vibration though it had garbage tires unlike the Camaro. I was interested in it, but they wouldn't cut the price for the tires and I didn't want to pay their price and put tires on it. But when I gunned it it didn't have that same "oh god, I might end up on the side of the road" feeling the SS had.

I much prefer the way the Northstar felt in my DeVille to the SS, it was smooth, quiet, and rode great but if you stomped the pedal that thing screamed. I think I had the only DeVille I've ever seen that was actually that stout. I had been in others and they felt much more like a Crown Vic, more meandering power that just slowly worked up to speed in a standard V8 fashion. My DeVille downshifted and rocketed when I nailed it. That's how I like my power. I sold it out of fear of the common Northstar problems though, as it was still perfect when I sold it. Whatever I need to pay to get the power without the untamed feeling that I may end up sliding off the road or breaking something on the car, I'll probably pay it (at some point, if it's too much right now). But what car would even fulfill that? A new CTS-V? Lexus IS-F?

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

A Z28 of this same era has an identical suspension as a base SS model, other than the 30mm front sway bar (32mm for SS). You could option an SS with various suspension upgrades through SLP when ordering it new, but without such there is no appreciable difference in suspension between Z28 and SS. The ride quality and handling difference between the two is due to the different wheel/tire sizing. The SS uses a lower profile, wider tire on a wider wheel, vs. Z28, and thus delivers a harsher but more precise feel on the road. Going from the stock 245/50/16 tires on 16x8" wheels to 275/40/17 tires on factory 17x9" SS wheels instantly transformed both of my Z28s into identical handling (and harshness) performers as my WS6 (which also has the same suspension setup as a base SS - meaning everything the same as a base V8 model with the exception of a 2mm larger diameter front sway bar.) You can get a much smoother ride out of these cars with certain aftermarket shocks and/or use of the 16x8" wheels with higher profile tires, but even still this isn't going satisfy your apparent desires.

Sounds like you have been looking at the wrong type of car. A 4th gen Camaro SS is a poor choice for someone who seems to enjoy the aspects you have outlined of the various imports, sport compacts, and luxury cars you have experienced.

If you're demanding both modern luxury-level ride quality and refinement, and also 5.0 second or better 0-60 times you will have to be realistic about the price range. This is going to get expensive, and no $7500 ~15 year old used car is going to deliver. Either your budget will need to increase, or you'll have to make the tough decision between brute acceleration and luxury.

I've driven my share of Northstar V8s, both the base version and the ETC version, and while they are certainly no snoozer of an engine, they are flat out boring compared to an LS1. In fact, there really is no comparison, even the higher rpm/higher powered ETC version would be decisively spanked by the lowest powered versions of an LS1.

I'm not a person who places much importance on luxury, as evident by my feeling right at home driving 45 year old cars with drum brakes, multi-leaf springs and traction bars, so I don't have much advice to offer in this regard. I've driven many modern luxury cars of the Cadillac/Lincoln level, and while they are certainly nice cars, I don't feel any particular draw to what they offer for the price premium. But for someone who is excited, or at least fulfilled, by this aspect I guess it only makes sense to stick with cars of this category.

I do agree with what you mentioned above, about new cars having been on a decline for several years now. They no longer feel like machines; too much tech and gadgetry being forced down my throat as standard equipment, the disconnected feel of drive-by-wire and electric power steering, the excessive torque management/sloppy shifting of the newest auto transmissions without a custom tune (GM could build a TH350/400 automatic nearly 50 years ago that shifted better in stock form than what they issue today in the average car), the overly complicated designs and systems to meet MPG standards; all of these things leave me with the feeling that every new car I drive is nothing more than a disposable transportation appliance. I feel no passion or lust towards anything on current showroom floors nor in the pipeline; the best I can muster is a mild interest in a handful of models, but not enough to justify paying even 50% of their MSRP.

The alternative is to stick with old cars, but this is not the answer for you. Old cars aren't the right choice for people who actively dislike doing anything more than oil changes, and older cars won't offer the combined luxury, refinement and performance that you desire. Generally you have to be willing to accommodate, and be understanding of, their mechanical needs and special quirks to keep them on the road, or willing to pay someone else to deal with all the things that come up with a car as it ages - and this can get quite expensive (and become very hard to find someone knowledgeable in antiquated systems and devices as a car gets old enough, depending on your region, but that doesn't really apply to 4th gens yet.)

Lastly, that "oh God, this car pulls hard enough to kill me" feeling is basically what most people are interested in when they purchase a muscle car; that is one of the fundamental purposes of such. Things like refinement and reserved, tame ride and acceleration characteristics are not priorities in this category. I would never consider a 4th gen V8 F-body to be out of control or dangerously unpredictable on the whole, but you do need to learn how to handle a car like this in various road and weather conditions, and feel out its limits as the car becomes more familiar. If you think a 4th gen is scary at WOT, try driving a late '60s or early '70s GM A/F/X body car with a 500+ hp BBC and stock suspension & chassis; at that point a 4th gen will feel like a Ferrari.

Point being, while it takes some time to feel totally comfortable with a 4th gen if you are coming from an entirely different world, it shouldn't feel like such a troublesome experience unless it's just simply the wrong car for you. I've personally found a TON of enjoyment in these cars, having owned four (and two since brand new), they fit me like a glove and are the last "modern" cars that still have an old car soul IMO, but not everyone enjoys or appreciates the same aspects of an automobile.

Firebrian

Thanks RPM WS6 for the clarification on the Z28 vs. SS handling/ride differences. I also had 93 and 95 Trans Am LT-1 daily drivers and felt that both of those were pretty smooth. For many years I always had a stock 1960's Plymouth/Dodge big block muscle car in the garage along with more modern muscle and my daily driver. So a constant comparison between the 3 was always right there for me. In the 8 years I owned the 1998 Z28 I only broke traction once. That was from a dead stop in light rain while trying to accelerate quickly to get on the highway (no on ramp). I learned. And never lost dry traction despite mashing the pedal to the floor more times than I could count. But, never did anything dumb with it either such as burnouts, etc. I was always amazed at the aggressive sounds of that Z when it was floored. In a way, it reminded me of all 6 barrels coming open on my old 1970 Challenger R/T. That Z was driven in the rain, and sometimes even in the snow, though never aggressively. With a set of Goodyear Eagle F1 GS-D3's or Continental DWS/all seasons, you could get excellent wet traction on an F Body.

Maybe a C5 or early C6 Vette might work for you. But I've never driven those. I came back to F bodies in 2012 after a 3 year break. They were still the best bang for the buck out there imo. Good luck in your search. In a few years I wouldn't mind trying a 2009 or later Hemi Challenger or 2002-2003 Z06 once prices come down a little more. But like RPM WS6, all the new technology is not that important to me. And the less a car has, probably the better. For now, the F bodies work for me.

In a different world, I've been riding 21 speed road bikes for the past 13 years. My brother gave me his nearly new 21 speed mountain bike and I just hated it. Nothing felt right on that. The handle bar is so long and touchy that losing control was way beyond my comfort/safety zone. And even worse I hated the sound of the fat tires with huge treads whining all the time. All that extra rolling resistance was a pain too. That bike sat for 3 years. Now that my current road bike needs all new gears ($200) I gave that sad sack mountain bike a 2nd chance. With each ride it became a little easier to control. The whine of the tires isn't as annoying. In another few months it might just feel ok. I'll get less flat tires and wipe outs on sandy roads too. It wouldn't be the 1st time I've learned to adapt to something quite different, where it eventually became the new "normal."

Gunsr

Thanks for the insightful comments. I'm only 25, so I know I don't have the same history with cars - certainly not anything older than the 90's since my first car was a '96. My dad who is nearly 60 has mentioned driving many old cars in the day and said when I mentioned of how this Camaro felt to me that the old cars never felt like or did the things I was describing. I will probably never know what it's like for these old cars as any that seem cool to me are so expensive I'd be more apt to buy a newer car. I'd be curious to drive a classic car some day, but given their nature I doubt I ever will get to. Maybe some day I can ride in one at a car show or something.

I don't think I would mind working on an old car considering the engine bays are much more open and there aren't computers and stuff in the way, but I'm conflicted as I worry about safety of what I drive. I know we've come a long way with the safety of cars, and I tend to feel uncomfortable in a vehicle older than 1990 and especially if it has no airbags. There are just too many trucks and SUVs on the road for me to feel safe in an old car, though I'm certain they do better at low impact collisions. I like my 4 wheel disc brakes and ABS as well, traction control eh I don't really care. I usually defeat it anyway if my car has it (My Altima does not) as I find I can better manipulate the car in traction loss than the traction control would.

I understand the speed requirement though would require more money, I'm ok with it. I just wonder how much money I have to spend. A brand new Camaro SS would probably do it, but that's about $34k. 370z would also, but similar kind of price. Given my experience, I wonder if I would be happier with the 370z even if the SS is faster? Someone explained it to me that with many American cars you have to take command, they require more forceful movements with everything. As an example, the gas pedal and brakes on that SS - they're so stiff and barely even move. Coming from my Altima, I babied the gas because I feared pushing too hard on the short travel pedal. If I pushed the pedal like that on my Altima, I'd be punching it pretty good. Same for the brakes, my Buick and Cadillac both had brakes you could kind of just leave your foot on. With the Altima, even a light push on them starts stopping pretty hard. I can't imagine ever needing to stand on the brake on my Altima.

I'm probably misusing what I'm calling the "ride" of the SS, the car itself didn't bounce a lot going down the road or anything but I could feel the engine much more so than I can in the Altima. It feels more rough, as though I can feel the combustion as it is running. I'd almost say more like the motor mount was bad or something, but it didn't rock or anything when I gave it gas or vibrate the same way as a car with a broken mount. I don't even know if it was whining as I drove down the expressway, there was too much wind noise and other noise from the car - and I don't mean to say it was so loud we couldn't talk in it, it was not. It's just hard for me to uniquely say what any one noise was because it had several noises. With the Altima, there's pretty much no noises or rattles, just the horrible sound sometimes of the synchro not catching up as I try to shift sometimes and grinding. I'm not sure how easily I'd hear it on the SS.

What I want to be sure of, and I am not - is that the car is actually fast. I think it might be loud and noisy, and it makes it seem fast, but I'm not sure it really is. I rode in a 2001 SVT Cobra and it had that problem. It made a bunch of noise, sounded powerful, but look at the speedo and it wasn't really climbing as much as it sounded like it was. As a decidedly anti-Ford person, why does it seem like Mustangs drive nicer? They're definitely slower, but they seem to not be quite as abrasive and raw when you drive them. For a short time I considered buying one, but forced the caveat that it had to be a Cobra or I wouldn't bother (I only looked at the non-supercharged ones, Terminators are too expensive and not worth it even though I love supercharged cars and blower whine).

I heard elsewhere that the Corvette rides even worse than Camaros do, but is it truly just the ride or does it vibrate and make a lot of noise like this too? I've always wanted a Corvette, probably since I was a teenager. I'm almost curious to just drive one and see if I like it or not. If I don't...I guess I'll have to take an entirely new approach to looking at cars. I have a friend with a modded WRX that feels real fast (I know there's way faster, but it's the fastest thing I've been in - 350 hp or so), it's smooth and decent until you nail it and even then it's just a pure push you back in the seat and feel the G's kind of feeling. But that's just it, you have to mod WRXs to be that fast. I don't want to mod, I don't have the drive nor the skills to be monkeying under the hood with that kind of thing.

I'm sure this would tell a lot about me, but my no limits supercar that I'd drive everyday? It would be a Nissan GT-R. I feel as though based on what you all have said though, you would probably prefer a very nice classic car over any of these newer cars for many reasons. I just hope I don't sound like some punk kid who doesn't appreciate old cars, I certainly do. I just don't think I can enjoy them, or cars that aren't smooth (That said, being quite aware many old cars like Cadillacs and Buicks drove very smoothly - even regular Chevys). I'd love cars like a BMW M5, Audi RS4, or the various Mercedes AMG - but I'd never buy any as they're too expensive and just poorly made when it comes to repairs (what the hell do you even get if spending tons of money doesn't get you reliability along with all the luxury and power?). I feel as though driving should be a fun and exciting experience, I hate the stuff that makes driving even less of a thing like people need so much entertainment in a car. All I need is the sound of the engine and the feel of the road, I don't care about the radio or any of that stuff (and I'm crazy into audio at home, just don't care in the car). But I don't want a car that feels rattley, vibratey and generally like I'm sitting on the engine block as I drive.

Final thought, I am tempted to ask to drive the SS again and this time force myself not to be so intimidated by it. But then I am quite possibly just wasting the sellers time and feel I should just let him know up front and not even bother him anymore.

Firebrian

The SS you just test drove didn't appeal to you. I wouldn't go back for a 2nd try. The first attempt and "gut feel" from that is what you should go by. Continue to sample the field and test drive various makes/models of performance cars as they show up at your local dealerships or in the local for sale ads. For myself, the test drives rarely give me exactly what I need. It's really the first few long drives in the car (first few days or weeks of ownership) where I really get a feel for a car. Rarely, will a simple 10-20 mile test drive tell me everything I need or want to know. Maybe, part of that is the "experience" of this fresh new car that you want so badly to work out.

You have lots of time left. At 26 you don't have to be in a hurry. Used car prices consistently dropping over time is in your favor.

McGinnis

My 1999 Firebird Formula doesn't actually have the "piston slap" issue amazingly. Any old 4th gen is gonna have creeks and rattles. I would check the rear end for leaks, and check all the usual fluids. Make sure the oil pressure at idle is 35-40psi when warm. Also see if the radio functions properly and check the sail panels for bubbling or flaking of paint, cause that can be a major pain. Also make sure the driver and passenger window go up and down all the way. The overall drivetrain on these is very reliable if they are not beat on, and when driven with common sense and maintenance is done correctly. These engines at idle will make a fair amount of ticking and tapping due to loud fuel injectors and lifters. If you hear a loud metallic tick or rattle then you want to stay clear of it. I would find a youtube video of a ls1 to compare the sound of to give you and idea of what a healthy one should sound like. It should also feel fast unless your used to driving sports cars all the time. It should definitely throw you in the seat if the engine is between 3000-6000rpm.

RockinWs6

Altima? no offense but your Altima would need rockets bolted onto it to challenge my WS6 on the highway......BUY A NICE WS6 you won't regret it!

celtsean

iTrader: (1)

Try getting up to about 70-80 mph in 5th and push in the clutch, then drop in 4th gear and rev match. That ought to give you a bit of a taste of the ls1 f body . Bye,bye Altima. It's a taste thing man. These cars have a loud ,rumbling engine that throbs when it's pushed. No way around it you feel more in these cars. I've upgraded suspension and it's more firm and I like it. I can feel the road and corner without fear. I fully enjoy driving mine and could never go back to a 6or 4 banger. Or even a more tame v8 for that matter.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

A WS6 is no different than a base SS in terms of chassis/suspension, so I think he probably would regret it since the other LS1 F-bodies he's driven have been so unsatisfactory for his taste. I've had both a brand new WS6 and a brand new Z28 (with SS wheels/tires installed by me) and they drive exactly the same, so if you generally dislike the experience with one, you will dislike the experience with the other as well.

In fact, a base Trans Am/Formula or Z28 with original 16" wheels would probably be more to his liking, but still not luxurious/tame/smooth enough I'm sure; WS6/SS cars are a bit more harsh in stock form due to the lower profile tires.