RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

If you're not looking to buy a collectible (and I agree with Firebrian that at your age, a collectible/garage queen should be the least of your worries if you don't yet have a driver that you're happy with) and price is a concern, then you can skip the WS6 and the associated price premium. Take it from someone who bought a brand new WS6 himself - there is no acceleration advantage to an original WS6 car. It handles a bit better with the 17x9 wheels and wider tires, but that's it (these can be added to any trim level.) The ram air hood doesn't do much of anything in stock form (it's not sealed, so it's not real ram air even) and the only exhaust difference is a slightly smaller muffler with 0.50" larger tail pipes. This equals exactly zero real world performance difference. To date, the record fastest showroom stock LS1 F-body was a '99 Z28; further proof of the non-increase in acceleration performance from the WS6 package.

If you like the looks of a WS6, you can always add a hood to any base Trans Am or Formula. No need to spend for an original if you're looking for the best condition driver car possible for your budget and don't care about collectibility. Put your funds towards a nicer car, not a higher cosmetic trim level car. A base Trans Am will be every bit as fast as any comparably stock (or modded) WS6 car, and it's only a hood swap away from having the same look.

Having said all that, I do agree with you on price. In my region, it's hard to find nice (or at least what *I* consider to be nice) LS1 F-bodies for under $8k or so, or for under $10k for the higher trim levels. Part of this is the high cost of living in the Chicago region, and part of it is the weather (most nice ones are garage queens since the winter destroys the normal drivers, and people always want more for a garage queen.) It's hard to find a mid-mileage car in my area, most are high mileage drivers or low mileage garage queens, not highly desirable to intermediate shoppers due to either poor condition (former) or high prices (latter.) I kept my driver '02 Z28 as nice/clean as possible, but the winters still brought on a bunch of undercarriage and engine bay rust by the time it had 100k miles. This is just the way of things in the Great Lakes area. It's easier to find nice condition cars in areas that don't suffer nasty winters, which also puts downward pressure on the prices due to greater availability, so you have that in your favor.

Again, don't bankrupt yourself getting a super nice garage queen WS6 right now, you'll end up negating much of its value by daily driving it and putting yourself under great financial stress to have a car that will soon be worth just as little as the other average condition drivers. Just buy something decent that makes for a fun, reliable driver - a base model LS1 in decent shape will do just fine and you can always add a hood.

Firebrian

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chevrolet-Camaro-SS-/121739520932?forcerrptr=true&hash=item1c583daba4&item=121739520932
A darn nice deal popping up today on Ebay. A 1999 black SS M6 with 28K miles, elderly original owner. Fresh Eagle F1's. Probably buyable for $10K. Located in Charlottesville, Virginia. One of the best M6 deals I've seen recently for a low mileage car. Assuming no body or paint issues, and it drives nice, someone should hit the BIN or make the seller an offer of $10K and run. I would suspect the owner is going by KBB and doesn't know these generally can bring more than his BIN....especially for a "needs nothing" well running 1 owner car. No extra SLP options that I can see, no performance exhaust.

I have a feeling this car is even nicer than your typical 28K mi car. $8869 is top retail dollar for private party in excellent condition...for an automatic. An M6 should be $1K+ more. KBB has always been low on '98-'00 Camaro's. Even the identical WS6 M6 books out at a stupid $9,444. Complete hogwash. Too bad this owner didn't have a WS6....I'd be on the phone already. 1998's and 1999's just get no love. Did F-body prices fall apart in the past month? I've seen a few occasions of sold cars and low asking prices that suggest that. Find an elderly owner and be first to knock on their door. My biggest concern would be that this is a scam. Seems odd that a 65 year old seller has 729 feed backs on Ebay. It's certainly possible if they have been a serious collector and/or dealer in some portion of a collectible hobby/trade. Can't know until you call.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Overall it's probably a good buy, but that car does not appear to be without a couple of issues. It seems that the roof bubbling may have already begun, looking at that roof picture. And if not now, it will eventually; this is one reason why I personally place extra value on the '98 cars built prior to 05/98. I dealt with this repair on my '02 and was never completely satisfied with it, not to mention the cost now that warranty repair isn't an option (or the hassle of doing it yourself with used part - much cheaper but a lot of work.)

The headlights also don't look quite as crystal clear as they should for a sub-30k mile example that has spent it's entire life in the garage of "a $700k house". The sunken leather across the top of the rear seats also suggests plenty of sun exposure. The rotor hats and stock calipers appear to be in nice shape, so it's probably not been driven in much foul weather. The rear tires are NOT the correct original Goodyear Eagle F1 GS as the ad claims, they are a more modern version called GS-D3 and they do not match the front tires which are correct original style and may never have been replaced. This stood out to me instantly so I'm not sure how the owner could be so oblivious as to claim that they were an "identical" match to the originals when they don't even match front to back. This puts his other claims into question as well IMO.

Firebrian

Those are some good points. I didn't notice the tires are different (2 old and 2 new). Should have seen that, esp. with that crazy tread design of the new Eagles. I'm not so sure that the roof has bubbles. The white spots visible could easily be something in the reflection. And similar white spots are on the passenger TTop panel. Not sure about headlight fading either or the sunken leather on the rear seats. It's a car that has to be seen in person like anything else....at least a call to the owner to ask questions before making a trip. I doubt the owner is all that well-versed in these cars. And I think it will sell very right no matter what it is.

I'd still be more concerned about the whole thing being a scam than a real 65 year old seller who seems a bit clueless. 28K on the front set of tires is still pretty darn good for these cars. The brake and clutch pedals are more worn than mine at 17K....but I can't say it's not normal.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Just to be clear I didn't mean to suggest that the car is junk or anything such as this, and I don't get the feeling it's a scam either. It's probably a nice car, but as you said it really needs to be seen in person as there are obviously some discrepancies regarding the description. I'm not sure how far a call to the owner would get you, as he seems so certain about the tire claim in his ad and yet the pictures clearly show that he is wrong. So it definitely needs to be inspected. I guess a call would at least be helpful to verify if the guy generally IS just a bit clueless or if something shady seems to be afoot.

It will likely need a few things/some attention to be brought up to the #2 or #2+ condition that a 28k mile garage queen should be able to attain. I think the car has spent a bit more time outside than the ad states, but it's definitely not so worn as to suggest daily driver status or odometer tampering.

Just a side note....one of my neighbors has a '77 Corvette for sale on Craigslist. He has the car drastically overpriced, but that's just incidental. The real issue is that he specifically claims "garage stored", yet I've seen the car sitting in his driveway day and night for the better part of the last 5 years or so. Sometimes it disappears for a few weeks or months, but then it's right back out in the driveway for another 1-3 months. So "garage kept" doesn't always mean what it should, and some sellers really seem to take liberties with that term.

Firebrian

In looking more closely at the roof, those white "spotty" reflections are on both the TTops and sail panel. And the really large "white spot" on the sail panel looks like the reflection of a security camera or light fixture attached to the underside of the building overhang. The car is pretty far forward in that parking space to possibly impact the air dam. The lack of "SS" floor mats suggests no extra SLP options. The shifter arm/**** is still the original factory version. Too bad there are no photos of the engine bay...another possible sign this is not their forte. Hopefully, they didn't lose the radio antennae which is not on the car (could be back at the garage).

Firebrian

Not a bad looking 2001 SOM SS M6 with 61K miles. Currently bid at $8,800 with 3 bidders on it....they can't all be shills. And $9K would a good deal imo. Reserve is set higher and I don't think it sells. Owner probably wants $10K-$13K....not that they will get that. Some mods, but looks clean overall. This one out of Delaware. A regular Z28 in a standard color should be worth $2K-$3K less than this car.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chevrolet-Camaro-Z28-SS-Coupe-2-Door/252061637053?_trksid=p2047675.c100010.m2109&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D32936%26meid%3Dc8b884b78a3b4a0abdffd70623c4bc52%26pid%3D100010%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D9%26sd%3D121739520932

ULTIMATEORANGESS

iTrader: (4)

SOM is a sweet color.

it says bidding ended. i wonder what it sold for.

Firebrian

It didn't sell. Bidding stopped at $8800 and reserve was not reached. It should relist shortly.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Hard to tell what the deal is with the roof, but either way it's going to eventually need replacement unless the new owner rarely drives it in direct sunlight. I think a lot of shoppers don't even know about this pending condition on all the '99+ cars. It also seems that the area near where the end of the T-bar meets the sail panel is a bit dingy. Overall I think the car has had more outdoor exposure than the ad suggests. I think this car would need considerable detailing to present properly as a 28k mile garage queen. The antenna design was updated after these cars went out of production, so a new OEM one that's a perfect match to the original cannot be sourced at the dealer. There are a few aftermarket models that are a better match, but their paint quality is suspect. Also, the base portion of the antenna itself is slightly different for the '99+ cars - not something anyone would notice unless they were also familiar with the earlier version.

front2back

You know, another this is if I can finance a 2006 vehicle or more, I could get a high mileage C6 too as long as it was about $20k or under. However, that would depend on how much the internship and weekend job make me. Even then, (1.) That's a lot of car. I don't think I could handle a C6. (2.) That's about the most unsound financial decision ever, even if it reeked of awesome. Something like a GTO wouldn't make insurance companies flip that much ****, but a C6 Crovette in a 20 y/o's hands would.

I'll just wait until I'm 20 like I said, look for an F-body that someone didn't put a short novel's word amount of mods into, and see if I can score a semi-decent one for $10k or under. I could also buy one in winter, because even in the South we're expecting more than average snowfall this year.

SouthernRex

A C6 is a lot of car, it's good that you're honest to yourself about that... but if you get it in AT it's a lot easier for new drivers to control. You don't have to just rip the throttle open everytime you drive it (although 500+HP in RWD is a pain when its raining out.)

In a standard shift, yeah, I've seen LS4 cars scare a few people.

McGinnis

If looking for a daily driver I would look no farther then a GTO preferably a 2005-2006 with the 6.0. It's the most comfy to ride around in, but looks a little bland in my opinion. The best "cruiser" of the bunch. A ls1 Corvette is a good all around car as far as handling and performance goes, interior is better then 4th gen bodies body but still about 10 years behind GTO as far as interior comfort and quality is concerned. If you are ever planning on taking a car to a road course or track days a Corvette would be a great base to start with. I personally think a Ls1 Firebird Trans Am WS6 is the most bad a** from a looks perspective. They are the most crude and unrefined of the bunch. They are great weekend drivers and fun to drive on occasion, but as an everyday driver they suck, ingress, egress is terrible and the hatch is useless for storage. The back seats is only good for 2 bags worth of groceries or 2 small kids haha. 4th gen bodies are fun cars to mod and easy to make fast in the quarter mile too, and can be had for less then the other 2 options.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

GTO also has some interior quality issues, namely the seat stitching. GTO specific parts availability is also a much greater concern than anything with Corvette or F-body.

GTO would be the worst base to start with if any sort of racing is a primary goal. Their weight and stock suspension issues put them at a disadvantage as compared to Corvette or even F-body.

This area is just personal preference, but I disagree entirely. Getting in and out was never an issue for me, the hatch area was actually quite useful IMO (GTO trunk isn't exactly a '70 DeVille either), and it didn't "suck" at all as a daily driver. I've owned several mid and full-sized sedans and coupes as daily drivers as well, and the F-body really wasn't a hassle at all in comparison. In fact, it fit me like a glove.

Firebrian

The one owner, black '99 SS M6 up above with 28K miles just sold for $10,500. Someone got wise as I suggested they might and hit the BIN at $10,500. Meanwhile, the other bidders were back at $8,000 farting around hoping they could rip it. I suspect the reserve was probably at $10K. Hopefully, the new owner saw the car before placing that BIN. In any case it shows that a pretty low mileage M6 can go for around $10K. In my mind this is a lot better value than say a 68K mile car at $7,500. Then again, I put a lot of value on those lower 40k miles, others might not and go straight by KBB/NADA. This car had a less than $9K top retail value per those guides. Before the auction ended I sent the owner/seller an email with a few questions. They said there was no issue with the paint (ie sail panel) and didn't see any reason to post an engine photo. Hey, I was curious. Sounds like an old school type of guy. And his car had the original "lousy" factory shifter....and probably an original lo-performance air lid too. There are good reasons to check out an engine photo....

You can find some clues to the whole car about what's going on in the engine bay (rusty fasteners on the air lid suggest rainy or winter driving or outside storage, orig or replaced AC receiver/drier, a never cleaned engine bay that's filthy, low end aftermarket parts or "upgrades" that actually lower the look or value of the car, orig LS1 baffled lid still there...meaning likely not hot-rodded or driven too hard, etc.). The irony of this was that when I bought my SS off of Ebay I missed a very obvious clue in the photos...and again when I went to see the car in person in the dead of winter on a 20 deg day. The owner had lost the AC high pressure conn. charging cap. That was the clue that he was adding refrigerant. I even asked him that question during the test drive and he was mum....said the AC worked fine. In April, 3 months after I bought it, the AC was blowing warm on the first time I tried it in warmer weather. It ended up having a seal leak on the compressor than ran me $600+ to fix. Shame on me for not understanding what I was looking at....the clue was there....the car had a leak for at least the past 1 year or longer. I never did ask him directly "are you charging the AC system?" That dime should have been on him.

Me and my wife for 8 years shared a daily driver 1998 Z28 A4 and loved it. We put 93,000 miles on that car. I found the car quite comfortable and very pleasant to drive on my 50 mile commute to work each day. Based on the route I took 50-90% of the commute was highway and that was a blast in the A4. On some of those all high-way runs back home I set some speed records....lol. I think 39 min was my best time. I suspect if it were an M6 I would not have had as much fun with it. Next to my 1969 Dodge 383 Super Bee probably the most fun car I've ever owned. And I still kick myself for selling it for $3K in Nov 2009 at 115K miles thinking typical engine life was not much more than 125K. I was an idiot. I've since learned that 150K-200K is quite common for the LS1.

I've had 2 LT-1 Trans Am daily drivers and the above LS1 Z28. I'm 6 ft and never once thought they were not comfortable. Then again I drove Dodge Darts, Scamps, and Dusters in the 1970's and 1980's and thought they were comfortable...lol. Drove my Super Bee and early Darts on bias ply tires. People don't realize how good they have it today on performance radials.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

I agree about the engine picture, it's not like this is a 2001 Impala or something totally benign that doesn't normally appeal to people who spend much time under the hood. Actually, even then it's nice to see the engine bay for reasons you've stated (such as rust, grime or just general excessive wear that would suggest poor care or harsh use, etc.) Even the 2010 Malibu I bought a couple years back as a daily driver had engine bay photos posted by the dealer...haha.

I don't like uncooperative sellers, it's not a huge deal to ask for an engine bay photo from someone selling a car. Things like this are a flag to me, I try to avoid unreasonable people as the used car buying experience is already risky enough.

It's good that the sail panel isn't bubbling yet, but it will either way. This is much worse for the black cars or any V8 Camaro (as they all have a black roof.)

It was probably a fair deal but I still wonder how the seller could not notice his own mis-matched tires. Definitely a car that needed to be seen in person before bidding IMO.

I did 75 mile round-trip daily commutes for quite a while with my '02 Z28, even in snow (with proper tires and added trunk weight, no issues at all) and it was always a pleasure. I actually found it more comfortable for extended periods than my '96 Bonneville (the Bonneville had more comfortable seats, but the seating position of the F-body is more comfortable to me over long periods.) I wouldn't hesitate to use one as a daily driver again, except for the damaging effects of the weather and my desire to not ruin another one that way.

Like you, I'm also quite familiar with the "older" car experience, most specifically GM A and X bodies from '68-'72, and I've always enjoyed driving them as well. All platforms and eras of platforms have their strengths and weaknesses, and several aspects are quite subjective.

Firebrian

It's funny about the older classic cars, especially restored ones. The nicest old classic I ever owned was an over-restored 1970 Dodge Coronet R/T convertible (Bronze with white top and stripe). One of the rarest Mopar B body verts. The car was immaculate with a high end restoration where it sold out of BJ in 1990 for around $36K. I bought it in 1996 for $21K because they had gotten too darn cheap. It was shipped 2,000 miles so I never got a chance to test drive it. That car drove like a bucket of loose bolts. The hard shift kit made it even worse. Even after adjusting suspension and other issues it was a royal pain to drive. I hated it. After fixing all the detailing errors in the engine bay....sold it 6 months later for what I paid. A collector in MASS bought it and was just going to park it for investment. It probably peaked in price in 2007 around $60K-$65K...while probably still feeling like a bucket of loose bolts. Looked great...lousy driver. My all-original, low miles, orig paint '69 Super Bee never had a body panel or drive train component removed and felt tight as a drum all around. And it was only worth a fraction of the 70 R/T...but a joy to drive. Miss that car.

I guess I missed something on that '99 SS auction I just posted. Seems the 1st auction ended on Aug 23rd with a high bid of $10,155 that didn't meet reserve ($12K BIN). In any case it didn't sell on that go around. Then relisted immediately and that's where the BIN was probably lowered to $10,500 and was subsequently tagged. A little strange. In any case, it's probably gone at $10,500 unless the owner is playing games. Would appear that 2-3 people were interested at the >$10K level.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1999-Chevrolet-Camaro-SS-/121732827108?forcerrptr=true&hash=item1c57d787e4&item=121732827108&nma=true&si=e28LpHZRFpOZVy6MaUmgkV6Wpmg%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Sometimes these original old cars drive like a dream, even in with a ton of original bushings and suspension parts. A good friend bought a '70 Coupe DeVille back in '11, it was an unrestored 70k mile example with an interior so nice and clean that you would think it had been prepped for show duty. It needed some extensive brake system restoration, an exhaust system, new shocks and some new tires, but with those areas addressed the car drives and rides better than many nearly new cars I have experienced. Stock steering/bushings/springs and yet it's tight, responsive and rides like a luxury Cadillac should.

On the other hand, I had friend who bought a '72 Skylark in 2010, never test drove the car and had it delivered to him from the east coast. It was a 42k mile car (several indicators that the mileage was correct) that had been repainted and was mostly original otherwise. The steering was pretty sloppy and overall handling wasn't so great. I would have expected better with such low mileage.

My Nova is a "frame-on" restored car, many original cosmetic parts were retained in excellent shape but most mechanics are new/rebuilt. It's harsh over train tracks and such due to the traction bars and HD multi-leaf rear springs, but that's to be expected from a setup of this nature. Body bushings are original so it has a few squeaks especially in cool weather over rough roads, but the car is shockingly tight overall with unexpectedly responsive steering and handling. Suspension/steering/brakes have all been restored to stock or slightly better specs, and overall the car is a joy to drive IMO. So really it can go either way with restored OR original cars, some beat expectations while others disappoint.

I agree about the '07-early '08 price peak for the classics, I think we're seeing some return to those levels now on certain models, at least in terms of average sale prices (though the absolute extreme examples don't seem to have regained that same premium yet, if ever). I bought my Nova at the height of prices and then we had the crash, so even though I've done several things to improve it I'd say that its value has just recently returned to where it was at that peak time. Without the improvements, it may still not have returned to that value level. I'm not currently looking to sell though, so really it's all just conversation from my perspective.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

I would really recommend sticking to a cash purchase if you're buying a 10+ year old car as a daily driver, especially a higher mileage one. Taking out a loan for a cheap/high mile C6 and then having repair costs to deal with (even more expensive for Corvette than, say, the F-body) will be tough if you're on a tight budget; even a nice GTO is a gamble as they are ~10 years old now. Car payment + repair costs can be quite stressful when budget is a concern.

I'd keep saving and look for a good cash buy on an F-body or C5, based on the options you've posted so far.

front2back

I think it's coming down to the C5 Corvette and F-body for me. The GTO is nice but I think I really need to let loose instead of acting like an adult and getting a more "refined" car. While I do see the downsides to no backseat with the Corvette, I realize I never use the backseats 90% of the time I drive with my current sedan, and I'm sick of being a taxi for my friends anyways. Having only two seats seems like a deal now, since I'm not expected to drive people places. The C5 is starting to grow on me more now, it's just so sleek and low. My only question is how much is a C5 still worth? Most I've seen are in the mid-teens, which surprises me because a C6 can be had for about $20k. I know a Z06 C5 will cost in the high-teens. Shouldn't a Z51 C5 be good enough for what I want to do with it though? If they are still really worth in the mid-teens (someone told me you can pick up a higher mileage one for about $10k though), I might just go with an f-body for the cheapness factor.