654 RWHP and 677 RWTQ on 250 Shot....appreciate help reading plugs
08-15-2011, 06:47 PM
#1
654 RWHP and 677 RWTQ on 250 Shot....appreciate help reading plugs Dyno Run#1 with 88 N20 and 44 fuel with 10 degrees timing pulled. Dyno Run #2 (spark plugs shown below) with 88 N20 and 46 Fuel pulling 9 degrees from 26. (previous Tuner told me timing at WOT was 29 but showed 26 on tuning software today - prior to pulling timing). N/A RWHP is 405 so numbers seem right on the money. When I used the 250 jets on the 4 AN line I did not make more power and had to jet down to 42 jet (same as 200 shot). I switched to 6 AN line and immediately showed way lean on the 42. Worked my way up to the 46 which is represented in the Spark Plug pics below. Appreciate opinions on timing, fuel and any obvious hot spots.
08-15-2011, 07:23 PM
#3
They look awfully dirty... like they were driven on, or idled alot after the run... like the idle fueling is also rich as well.
What kind of dyno are you on as well, because chances are it's not loading the motor the same way the race track does, so you will only get so far on the dyno (unfortunately)
What kind of dyno are you on as well, because chances are it's not loading the motor the same way the race track does, so you will only get so far on the dyno (unfortunately)
08-15-2011, 08:17 PM
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As JL stated the dyno vs the track is two totally different things. I have seen cars dynoed "safe" and pop the motor at the track with the same tune-up. Use the dyno as a tool, not as an end all be all standard.
To me the timing looks a little aggressive for a 1/4 mile hit. I would pull two and start reading the plugs at the track.
If you are saying these plugs are brand new, no idle and and made one full hit on the dyno then you are rich. The -6 line made you go lean due to more volume and better flow (same thing I did). Cut the plugs and post up some pics. If you want to use mine as a reference, look at my latest post with plug pics. Mine might be a little lean for most but i few of us believe in lean=mean! lol...
To me the timing looks a little aggressive for a 1/4 mile hit. I would pull two and start reading the plugs at the track.
If you are saying these plugs are brand new, no idle and and made one full hit on the dyno then you are rich. The -6 line made you go lean due to more volume and better flow (same thing I did). Cut the plugs and post up some pics. If you want to use mine as a reference, look at my latest post with plug pics. Mine might be a little lean for most but i few of us believe in lean=mean! lol...
08-15-2011, 09:34 PM
#7
If those have no idle time on them at all, you are way off... like it's way rich.
I would pull 2 or 3 more degrees out, go back to your leaner fuel jet and make a 1/8th mile pass, get the car off the track/shut off as fast as possible and see what the plugs look like. If they're not showing too much heat, and aren't all black like that I'd make a 1/4 hit and get a good read on them, and adjust from there.
That looks way rich to me.
If you're just starting off the tuning process, before you even make a nitrous hit I would get the car on the dyno set to make as much motor hp as you can, go to the track, keep adjusting until it doesn't gain any more mph, and at that point pull your timing out for a nitrous pass, and see where you are at.
To me until you have a handle on the n/a tune and know it's right there's no point in trying to spray the car, becuase you don't even know if the base tuneup you have is right. Log some of those runs, run a wideband in the car for a run or 2 and make sure the a/f is nice and consistant, etc. Then, you have something that's worth trying to spray on, make sense?
Go trying to spray on a car that's got a fubar n/a tune and you'll have alot of issues, think it's the nitrous tuneup and be chasing the wrong thing, and probably hurting stuff in the process.
I would pull 2 or 3 more degrees out, go back to your leaner fuel jet and make a 1/8th mile pass, get the car off the track/shut off as fast as possible and see what the plugs look like. If they're not showing too much heat, and aren't all black like that I'd make a 1/4 hit and get a good read on them, and adjust from there.
That looks way rich to me.
If you're just starting off the tuning process, before you even make a nitrous hit I would get the car on the dyno set to make as much motor hp as you can, go to the track, keep adjusting until it doesn't gain any more mph, and at that point pull your timing out for a nitrous pass, and see where you are at.
To me until you have a handle on the n/a tune and know it's right there's no point in trying to spray the car, becuase you don't even know if the base tuneup you have is right. Log some of those runs, run a wideband in the car for a run or 2 and make sure the a/f is nice and consistant, etc. Then, you have something that's worth trying to spray on, make sense?
Go trying to spray on a car that's got a fubar n/a tune and you'll have alot of issues, think it's the nitrous tuneup and be chasing the wrong thing, and probably hurting stuff in the process.
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08-15-2011, 09:55 PM
#8
Way to much timing and pretty rich.
The rich condition may have something to do with the dyno not loading the motor enough.
With that said a dyno pull only last 3-4 seconds and the timing mark is all the way past the bend, if you made a 1/4 mile pass with that tune it would prolly rip the straps off the plugs.
I would take it to the track to tune it with alot less jet in it to start and work your way up to the 88 jet.
What did it make on motor?
Do you have the A/F reading with the run?
The rich condition may have something to do with the dyno not loading the motor enough.
With that said a dyno pull only last 3-4 seconds and the timing mark is all the way past the bend, if you made a 1/4 mile pass with that tune it would prolly rip the straps off the plugs.
I would take it to the track to tune it with alot less jet in it to start and work your way up to the 88 jet.
What did it make on motor?
Do you have the A/F reading with the run?
08-15-2011, 10:10 PM
#9
Plugs look awfully wet maybe oily. What plugs are they?
On my laptop 3,6,7 show timing marks best. In your last picture I can see 8. Like Shiz suggested I would yank another two or three degrees for a starting point down the track.
On these plugs... when you say they were new... Is that after you started leaning the car out and getting the tune up close you put another set of new ones in? Or did you use the same plugs that had already did a rich pull? If you used the plugs that already had a rick pull on them that explains what I am seeing. once you gotr that tune up close you have to put a new set in that have not already been fuel fowled. One a plug is loaded up with fuel its done..
Dave
On my laptop 3,6,7 show timing marks best. In your last picture I can see 8. Like Shiz suggested I would yank another two or three degrees for a starting point down the track.
On these plugs... when you say they were new... Is that after you started leaning the car out and getting the tune up close you put another set of new ones in? Or did you use the same plugs that had already did a rich pull? If you used the plugs that already had a rick pull on them that explains what I am seeing. once you gotr that tune up close you have to put a new set in that have not already been fuel fowled. One a plug is loaded up with fuel its done..
Dave
08-16-2011, 05:53 AM
#10
Thanks to everyone for their input..... Plugs look awfully wet maybe oily. What plugs are they?
On my laptop 3,6,7 show timing marks best. In your last picture I can see 8. Like Shiz suggested I would yank another two or three degrees for a starting point down the track.
On these plugs... when you say they were new... Is that after you started leaning the car out and getting the tune up close you put another set of new ones in? Or did you use the same plugs that had already did a rich pull? If you used the plugs that already had a rich pull on them that explains what I am seeing. once you got that tune up close you have to put a new set in that have not already been fuel fowled. One a plug is loaded up with fuel its done..
Dave
On my laptop 3,6,7 show timing marks best. In your last picture I can see 8. Like Shiz suggested I would yank another two or three degrees for a starting point down the track.
On these plugs... when you say they were new... Is that after you started leaning the car out and getting the tune up close you put another set of new ones in? Or did you use the same plugs that had already did a rich pull? If you used the plugs that already had a rich pull on them that explains what I am seeing. once you got that tune up close you have to put a new set in that have not already been fuel fowled. One a plug is loaded up with fuel its done..
Dave
Based on all the input I'll pull 2 degrees ( total pulled = 11) and drop down to the 44 fuel jet. I'll adjust from there using my dedicated. Thanks again everyone as I go down the road of plug reading.....I appreciate the benefit of everyone's experience as I am definately a newbe at this....
08-16-2011, 06:52 AM
#11
Do you see where the color changes from rusty to shiny black about 3/4 of the way down the strap? that is the timing mark.
If it was my car I would go to a #9 plug and pull 3*
Fuel wise it needs to be alot leaner.
Idle time before the run is not as bad as after, always do a burnout.
Telling us how much timing your pulling doesnt mean anything unless you tell us how much your starting with. -11* from 25 base and -11* from 32 base = big difference.
08-16-2011, 08:15 AM
#13
We need a complete breakdown of the setup at this point to see what you are doing/running etc. If your sig is right and you only made 405 rwhp with a 402 engine you have something seriously wrong with that motor. I made 480 in 2006 thru a 5200 n/a converter unlocked with mine, with the technology that's available today you should be at least doing that if not more with a locked converter...
And how are you locking the converter? Please don't tell me you still have a 4ljunkie in the car, if so you mine as well start planning a tranny swap now... an 88 jet on a 400+ ci motor is going to kill that tranny before you even get the tune right.
And how are you locking the converter? Please don't tell me you still have a 4ljunkie in the car, if so you mine as well start planning a tranny swap now... an 88 jet on a 400+ ci motor is going to kill that tranny before you even get the tune right.
08-16-2011, 08:39 AM
#14
Dyno Results and Tuning Recommendations We need a complete breakdown of the setup at this point to see what you are doing/running etc. If your sig is right and you only made 405 rwhp with a 402 engine you have something seriously wrong with that motor. I made 480 in 2006 thru a 5200 n/a converter unlocked with mine, with the technology that's available today you should be at least doing that if not more with a locked converter...
And how are you locking the converter? Please don't tell me you still have a 4ljunkie in the car, if so you mine as well start planning a tranny swap now... an 88 jet on a 400+ ci motor is going to kill that tranny before you even get the tune right.
And how are you locking the converter? Please don't tell me you still have a 4ljunkie in the car, if so you mine as well start planning a tranny swap now... an 88 jet on a 400+ ci motor is going to kill that tranny before you even get the tune right.
As for the 4L60E Transmission, it is a Performabuilt Level 3 which they stand behind to handle this level of power. I have probably 50 runs on a 200 shot with no issues so far.
As for the suggestion of using #9 plugs and pulling 3 degrees - makes sense at the 250 HP level I am now at - Tks.
Thanks again for everyone's input!
08-16-2011, 08:50 AM
#15
Tuning Advice Do you see where the color changes from rusty to shiny black about 3/4 of the way down the strap? that is the timing mark.
If it was my car I would go to a #9 plug and pull 3*
Fuel wise it needs to be alot leaner.
Idle time before the run is not as bad as after, always do a burnout.
Telling us how much timing your pulling doesnt mean anything unless you tell us how much your starting with. -11* from 25 base and -11* from 32 base = big difference.
When I had the car tuned by one of the site's sponsors Champion Motors, who tune many LS cars, the tuner indicated timing at WOT was 29 degrees. When I went yesterday the tuner was not there but one of the other guys at the shop had hooked up his laptop which showed 26 degrees of timing at WOT. I use a Timing Tuner so the software does not recognize the timing I'm pulling. Now I'm not quite sure where the timing is but regardless I'l work off the plugs for the timing.....
08-16-2011, 09:30 AM
#16
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Few things to add.
Remember, we want the timing mark to be before the bend on a track pass with a much leaner tune up than this appears to have. That tuneup is more aggressive than it appears.
Also, the comments on NA power, they were not trying to knock the car. It clearly is moving well. They were looking at that as a problem since that combo healthy on most dynos would put down a much higher number. The guys posting in here are some of more experienced lSX nitrous you will find. This is all to help make you go faster, not race dyno's.
Remember, we want the timing mark to be before the bend on a track pass with a much leaner tune up than this appears to have. That tuneup is more aggressive than it appears.
Also, the comments on NA power, they were not trying to knock the car. It clearly is moving well. They were looking at that as a problem since that combo healthy on most dynos would put down a much higher number. The guys posting in here are some of more experienced lSX nitrous you will find. This is all to help make you go faster, not race dyno's.
08-16-2011, 10:00 AM
#17
Thanks Graham.... Few things to add.
Remember, we want the timing mark to be before the bend on a track pass with a much leaner tune up than this appears to have. That tuneup is more aggressive than it appears.
Also, the comments on NA power, they were not trying to knock the car. It clearly is moving well. They were looking at that as a problem since that combo healthy on most dynos would put down a much higher number. The guys posting in here are some of more experienced lSX nitrous you will find. This is all to help make you go faster, not race dyno's.
Remember, we want the timing mark to be before the bend on a track pass with a much leaner tune up than this appears to have. That tuneup is more aggressive than it appears.
Also, the comments on NA power, they were not trying to knock the car. It clearly is moving well. They were looking at that as a problem since that combo healthy on most dynos would put down a much higher number. The guys posting in here are some of more experienced lSX nitrous you will find. This is all to help make you go faster, not race dyno's.
Also regarding N/A set-up I didn't mean to discount anyone's comments. The motor made 390 RWHP before a complete rebuild last year with Nitrous Pistons and Rings and made 405 RWHP after the build so that seems to be what it makes right now. The tuner said there seems to be a restriction on the intake side based on vacuum so I'm guessing the intake plumbing before and after the 85 MM MAF before the 92MM Throttle Body. Also pretty small cam and full exhaust with high flow cats.
08-16-2011, 10:06 AM
#18
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So if I am understanding this correctly I need the timing mark closer to the tip on a Dyno because on a longer 1/4 mile run the plug will accumulate more heat requiring less timing to offset the addition heat?
Also regarding N/A set-up I didn't mean to discount anyone's comments. The motor made 390 RWHP before a complete rebuild last year with Nitrous Pistons and Rings and made 405 RWHP after the build so that seems to be what it makes right now. The tuner said there seems to be a restriction on the intake side based on vacuum so I'm guessing the intake plumbing before and after the 85 MM MAF before the 92MM Throttle Body. Also pretty small cam and full exhaust with high flow cats.
Also regarding N/A set-up I didn't mean to discount anyone's comments. The motor made 390 RWHP before a complete rebuild last year with Nitrous Pistons and Rings and made 405 RWHP after the build so that seems to be what it makes right now. The tuner said there seems to be a restriction on the intake side based on vacuum so I'm guessing the intake plumbing before and after the 85 MM MAF before the 92MM Throttle Body. Also pretty small cam and full exhaust with high flow cats.
I just wanted to bring this up so you know that the crew here is trying to help. Not hater's.
08-21-2011, 06:53 PM
#19
New Plug pictures and Track Results I cut the threads on the first set of plugs in my original post. So from my newbee at reading plugs perspective......
First set at 88 N20 and 42 fuel and 16 degrees of timing. Porcelan looks darkish tan but A/F Guage read way lean. Timing mark is closer to the tip which I thought was too cold but consensus from posts was these would be hotter on a full 1/4 mile pass. Dyno was 617 RWHP and 554 RWTQ.
Second set are from 88 N20 and 46 fuel and 17 degrees of timing. Porcelan is much lighter tan but A/F Guage showed way rich. Timing mark is close to the bend which I now understand would be too hot on a full 1/4 mile pass. Dyno was 654RWHP and 677 RWTQ.
At the track on Saturday I ran 88 N20 and 44 fuel with NGK BR9ES plugs and 15 degrees of timing. Could not pull plugs as ICAR track has no facility to do this off the return road. First run showed lean on the wide-band and ran 10.45 at 131.10 MPH (1.67 60 ft). I added 3 pounds on the dedicated and A/F ran from 12.6 down to 11.9 but lost MPH. Ran a 10.42 at 127.45 (1.63 60 ft). Added 1 degree of timing and ran a 10.45 at 132.5 MPH (1.71 60 ft). Left it at that until I can get to my home track and pull plugs to check timing.
I'm still a little confused as to how to read the fuel. When I look at post by Carter01 the porcelan on his plugs looks really white where mine have colouring over much of the porcelan. What do I want to be seeing? Any feedback appreciated.....TKS
First set at 88 N20 and 42 fuel and 16 degrees of timing. Porcelan looks darkish tan but A/F Guage read way lean. Timing mark is closer to the tip which I thought was too cold but consensus from posts was these would be hotter on a full 1/4 mile pass. Dyno was 617 RWHP and 554 RWTQ.
Second set are from 88 N20 and 46 fuel and 17 degrees of timing. Porcelan is much lighter tan but A/F Guage showed way rich. Timing mark is close to the bend which I now understand would be too hot on a full 1/4 mile pass. Dyno was 654RWHP and 677 RWTQ.
At the track on Saturday I ran 88 N20 and 44 fuel with NGK BR9ES plugs and 15 degrees of timing. Could not pull plugs as ICAR track has no facility to do this off the return road. First run showed lean on the wide-band and ran 10.45 at 131.10 MPH (1.67 60 ft). I added 3 pounds on the dedicated and A/F ran from 12.6 down to 11.9 but lost MPH. Ran a 10.42 at 127.45 (1.63 60 ft). Added 1 degree of timing and ran a 10.45 at 132.5 MPH (1.71 60 ft). Left it at that until I can get to my home track and pull plugs to check timing.
I'm still a little confused as to how to read the fuel. When I look at post by Carter01 the porcelan on his plugs looks really white where mine have colouring over much of the porcelan. What do I want to be seeing? Any feedback appreciated.....TKS
Last edited by CanadianEh!; 12-11-2011 at 08:05 AM.
08-21-2011, 07:35 PM
#20
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1/8 inch is usually where i like to see mine. light tan in color.
300 shot on 14.5 degrees (last sat)
44 jet, see the difference, should have gone to a 40 or 42 looking back
46 jet
300 shot on 14.5 degrees (last sat)
44 jet, see the difference, should have gone to a 40 or 42 looking back
46 jet