Need education on converting to Dry....
05-28-2005, 02:59 AM
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Need education on converting to Dry.... Ok, been tossing up the idea and now I need to know what to log, look out for etc using dry over wet....damn just when you comfortable you go n change..
Setup.
15lb bottle
-4 Insulated Feed Line
Dyno Tune large Nitrous Noid
T-fitting (will convert to Y later)
Two -3 Lines out of Noid
Shark Nozzle
Jets
Walbro 340m Intank FP
02 SS Injectors
Timing by HPTuners.
TR6 Plugs gapped at .033" (suited the wet 150-175 best on my car)
LS6 Intake
typical other ****, PP 5.3 Heads, TSP 231/237 .598/.595 112* cam blah blah blah.
1) Now, running the nitrous I got, hopefully wont be an issue using the shark nozzle for only dry?
2) I am over the 15ms on injectors, running around 17.x on NA now, so have a set of 30# Bosch injectors to supplement for a little while. Probably a good idea to throw them in before hitting the dry on the stock 02SS 28.8ers right?
3) What parameters need to be monitored, Spark, AFR and ????? MAP? MAF Freq? MAF Flow? unsure on this one.
4) Is it necessary or beneficial to have the nozzle at XXX Angle to the intake tract? I see a lot of 5177 kits running into the side of the lids, and they shoot in-line with the nozzle (0*) where Shark Nozzles shoot at 90*, so to achieve the same discharge I could put it at the rear side of the lid, with facing the inside.
5) Do I need to tune for extended MAF, additional PE or anything, figure spray 100-150 until I get everything down pat.
So many questions...too worried about converting but seems so much easier.
Setup.
15lb bottle
-4 Insulated Feed Line
Dyno Tune large Nitrous Noid
T-fitting (will convert to Y later)
Two -3 Lines out of Noid
Shark Nozzle
Jets
Walbro 340m Intank FP
02 SS Injectors
Timing by HPTuners.
TR6 Plugs gapped at .033" (suited the wet 150-175 best on my car)
LS6 Intake
typical other ****, PP 5.3 Heads, TSP 231/237 .598/.595 112* cam blah blah blah.
1) Now, running the nitrous I got, hopefully wont be an issue using the shark nozzle for only dry?
2) I am over the 15ms on injectors, running around 17.x on NA now, so have a set of 30# Bosch injectors to supplement for a little while. Probably a good idea to throw them in before hitting the dry on the stock 02SS 28.8ers right?
3) What parameters need to be monitored, Spark, AFR and ????? MAP? MAF Freq? MAF Flow? unsure on this one.
4) Is it necessary or beneficial to have the nozzle at XXX Angle to the intake tract? I see a lot of 5177 kits running into the side of the lids, and they shoot in-line with the nozzle (0*) where Shark Nozzles shoot at 90*, so to achieve the same discharge I could put it at the rear side of the lid, with facing the inside.
5) Do I need to tune for extended MAF, additional PE or anything, figure spray 100-150 until I get everything down pat.
So many questions...too worried about converting but seems so much easier.
05-29-2005, 11:49 AM
#4
1. Shark nozzle use, I don't see a problem, however, I haven't used one for dry.
2. On injectors, the best way is to have your anticipated HP. Then plug numbers into:
Injector size = (bhp x bsfc (normally .5)/(no. of inject x duty cycle (.8)
or
projected hp x (.5/6.4) = min inject size
so,
550hp x .5 / (8 x .8) =
275 / 6.4 = 40.62 lb's hr min
Furthermore, I have used 28lb injectors on 125/150hp hits a couple times, depending on mods and hp level.
3. Logging: I log all that I can on hp Tuner for evaluation purposes, Also using Lm1 Wideband. Work your way up and watch Spark, KR and a/f. On a/f the narrow band only is accurate in the 14.7:1 range and as you get farther away from this range it gets progressivly worse. Wideband is the only way to go. I say this because you'll want to tune for 11.5:1/12:1 on wot end and may see as high as 17:1 on intitial hit (witch both can be fixed in tune and will not effect n/a).
4. On the 5177 they do come in at sides and use the incoming air to mix and turn 90*, works fine. However, it doesn't have to be that way, if you look in my web pic number 38 or so is quad 5177 nozzles closer to 22* and 4/5 inches from MAF, works fine. One guy on this site has his nossle 3 inches and straight at MAF shooting a 300hp shot and no problems. Freezing MAF really only happens shotting at to low of rpm, and then I don't know anyone that's had that problem.
5.Now on the tune, this gets a little complex, with a 125/150 hp hit and upsized injectors, you'll prob be fine. But, this is where you'll need to log and see if a/f falls where you want it. Timing can also be taken out on the spray only and not effect n/a tune (two tunes in one). Yes, on the maf you'll get into freq not normally seen n/a, so you log n/a, then you log on the gas, then you can access parts of your tables that n/a never sees, thus the two tunes in one. Logging will tell you how far you need to go with tune. For example, right now I have 185hp jets and absolutly no KR so my 24* of timing at wot is fine. There is more, but this is the basics.
Hope this helps you get started.
Edit: A friend Friday night ran 12.09 1/4 and 1.9 sixty ( I was sidelined with tuning (cough) issues)on the 5177 largest jets and totally bone stock including tune, no outward problems. I offered to log for him to make sure he wasn't lean for engine longevity. I have run these kits upto 150hp totally stock also, and went slightly lean on top end. Lean is mean except I want my engine to last.
2. On injectors, the best way is to have your anticipated HP. Then plug numbers into:
Injector size = (bhp x bsfc (normally .5)/(no. of inject x duty cycle (.8)
or
projected hp x (.5/6.4) = min inject size
so,
550hp x .5 / (8 x .8) =
275 / 6.4 = 40.62 lb's hr min
Furthermore, I have used 28lb injectors on 125/150hp hits a couple times, depending on mods and hp level.
3. Logging: I log all that I can on hp Tuner for evaluation purposes, Also using Lm1 Wideband. Work your way up and watch Spark, KR and a/f. On a/f the narrow band only is accurate in the 14.7:1 range and as you get farther away from this range it gets progressivly worse. Wideband is the only way to go. I say this because you'll want to tune for 11.5:1/12:1 on wot end and may see as high as 17:1 on intitial hit (witch both can be fixed in tune and will not effect n/a).
4. On the 5177 they do come in at sides and use the incoming air to mix and turn 90*, works fine. However, it doesn't have to be that way, if you look in my web pic number 38 or so is quad 5177 nozzles closer to 22* and 4/5 inches from MAF, works fine. One guy on this site has his nossle 3 inches and straight at MAF shooting a 300hp shot and no problems. Freezing MAF really only happens shotting at to low of rpm, and then I don't know anyone that's had that problem.
5.Now on the tune, this gets a little complex, with a 125/150 hp hit and upsized injectors, you'll prob be fine. But, this is where you'll need to log and see if a/f falls where you want it. Timing can also be taken out on the spray only and not effect n/a tune (two tunes in one). Yes, on the maf you'll get into freq not normally seen n/a, so you log n/a, then you log on the gas, then you can access parts of your tables that n/a never sees, thus the two tunes in one. Logging will tell you how far you need to go with tune. For example, right now I have 185hp jets and absolutly no KR so my 24* of timing at wot is fine. There is more, but this is the basics.
Hope this helps you get started.
Edit: A friend Friday night ran 12.09 1/4 and 1.9 sixty ( I was sidelined with tuning (cough) issues)on the 5177 largest jets and totally bone stock including tune, no outward problems. I offered to log for him to make sure he wasn't lean for engine longevity. I have run these kits upto 150hp totally stock also, and went slightly lean on top end. Lean is mean except I want my engine to last.
Last edited by Robert56; 05-29-2005 at 11:57 AM.
05-30-2005, 02:17 AM
#5
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Robert, thanks for the confirmation of ideas/questions and answers. I had researched a lot for the swapping, but I tend to lose info when I go to so many different sources.
I will soon be swapping in my forged bottom, sitting there staring at it is killing me. I plan on throwing in the 30# inj for now, maybe hit a little 100-150 logging of course, and with the LM-1. I am not necessarily using a 5177, but was easy comparison. I am using a Dynotune 300hp (their largest) N Noid and will most likely Y is off into two -3 lines into the Shark Nozzle, with standard WOT and Arming switch. I have never used a FPSS, but thinking its more of a necessary evill when using dry.
I havent logged any nitrous runs before, I got HPT after my wet kits been removed. But I was almost sure when looking at the MAF/Timing/Airflow tables that the nitrous would put the operating range down and right from what they would be NA. And then take the timing and adjust AFR in those increased air/rpm areas.
I like the pics and site you have, for some reason I never checked it out before. And jealous you have a blk LM-1, mine is white
(gets dirty to easy).
I appreciate the help and info, if you think of anything else please post up or feel free to pm me anytime. Thanks man.
Charlie
I will soon be swapping in my forged bottom, sitting there staring at it is killing me. I plan on throwing in the 30# inj for now, maybe hit a little 100-150 logging of course, and with the LM-1. I am not necessarily using a 5177, but was easy comparison. I am using a Dynotune 300hp (their largest) N Noid and will most likely Y is off into two -3 lines into the Shark Nozzle, with standard WOT and Arming switch. I have never used a FPSS, but thinking its more of a necessary evill when using dry.
I havent logged any nitrous runs before, I got HPT after my wet kits been removed. But I was almost sure when looking at the MAF/Timing/Airflow tables that the nitrous would put the operating range down and right from what they would be NA. And then take the timing and adjust AFR in those increased air/rpm areas.
I like the pics and site you have, for some reason I never checked it out before. And jealous you have a blk LM-1, mine is white
(gets dirty to easy). I appreciate the help and info, if you think of anything else please post up or feel free to pm me anytime. Thanks man.
Charlie
05-30-2005, 11:47 AM
#6
On the FPSS, it's a good safety item wet/dry, and as important on either. Also, on the safety thing, one thing to consider is redunant noids. This is about the only thing that can cause problems on a dry kit, n2o noid sticking open. I have had one do this (not NOS powershot). People think that the 5177 has bad noids because of having two, not so, it's safety built in. The chance of two noids sticking open at same time is about 0. Dual noids isn't a good idea on wet cause it ups the chance of failure on n2o side (a noid not opening x two) and the extra fuel will still flow, and potential problems. Whereas, if it dosen't flow on dry, so what, causes no problems.
05-30-2005, 02:32 PM
#7
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Seen that on the 5177's thought about running backup noid as well, damn the one I have is huge, can imagine two now 
One of these days I'm going to get off my *** and start installing, nitrous, engine, TC, K Member, A Arms, and wtf ever else is laying around. Thanks Robert.
Charlie
One of these days I'm going to get off my *** and start installing, nitrous, engine, TC, K Member, A Arms, and wtf ever else is laying around. Thanks Robert.
Charlie