Darth_V8r

iTrader: (4)

Jake, for what it's worth, I saw the following in your logs and tune:

* you're getting KR at idle, but nowhere else. Getting KR at idle is going to make it difficult to use spark to control idle speed. I don't think you need to cut timing at idle, but it does seem you need to decrease knock sensitivity at low kpa. I'd use the knock sensor global gain vs rpm vs map table to desensitize the knocks at 50-75 kpa. Higher numbers are less sensitive.

* your idle proportional fueling is still on. I disabled that a long time ago to help keep idle fueling from swinging all over the place.

* Your commanded and dynamic air are close enough that there is no point screwing with the IAC table anymore. You're within a g/sec or less.

* Your slow derivative RPM filter is too high IMO. I would reduce it to 0.08 or even 0.06 to help stabilize the IAC movements. The high filter at .95 is good, but slightly lower will also help stabilize the IAC a bit.

* Lastly, there is a clue in the MAF vs VE symptoms. There is a filter on the MAF air signal to help prevent to computer from reacting to all the signal noise. The lower the filter, the less reactive the controller. Now, under airflow-dynamic, your MAF filter is set to 0.0781. Your Dynamic air filter is set to 0.1484. Reduce this to 0.11 for starters, but you may end up at 0.078 just like the MAF filter.

JakeFusion

iTrader: (7)

Good catches. I'll try all those and report back.

Firebirdmuscle

iTrader: (16)

This thread is awesome with the amount of shared info in it. Hope you get this figured out jake, but on another note hope it keeps going to get this thread full of great information that is hard to come by elsewhere. Lol

JakeFusion

iTrader: (7)

Lol.

It is good.

Btw, I tried those changes. In SD mode, they helped. Still have dippity doo when coming to a stop or in a parking lot, so meh. But it's better.

I applied those settings to the MAF-only tune and it killed the car. If the TB snapped shut, that was it. No chance of a save. Just dead.

So I kept the factory-ish settings there and continue to run MAF-only for the time being.

Darth_V8r

iTrader: (4)

There is something there we are not learning. There's a huge clue that the MAF and SD modes are behaving so differently. I don't know where it's pointing, but its fascinating.

Have you noticed when the throttle snaps shut if you're going momentarily lean or rich?

JakeFusion

iTrader: (7)

I'll have to go look at the log. Not near the log file right now.

But yeah it's weird. I wish I had my stock tb still. Would like to drive with it to see...

Firebirdmuscle

iTrader: (16)

jake up until this point i had been reading only. finally looked at your original tune since i only have 2.24 and your high and low spark tables caught my eye. it wont let me even look at your first log in the first post so this may be a non issue but its something that i noticed and i just want to try and help...

in your high and low octane spark tables, they do not match. now i know they dont have to match. so your probably wondering well whats your point? what im getting at is you are only having the issue in sd mode correct? in sd mode your running out of the low octane table, and when you try to run maf your now using the high octane table. so maybe the low octane table needs some tweaking or just copy high over to the low and see how it does in sd like that since in MAF only you say it is rock stable.

sorry if you have already tried this made changes to this, but i cant see them in the new software like i said, im still on the 2.24

joecar

Good point, try making LO table sameas HO table like he ^ said.

Is there any way to utilize RTT to play with this (...or otherwise do you have access to a Moates Roadrunner...)...?

JakeFusion

iTrader: (7)

I can do RTT.

But the Custom 1-Bar with HPT, I can use both spark tables in SD mode. Which is why I've tuned them different. It's definitely pulling from high spark in SD mode. I got on it the other day and was at 26 degrees at 6k RPM.

joecar

Ok, understood, COS retains adaptive spark during SD.

BTW: Happy NewYear

statesman

Have you made any progress on this yet?

JakeFusion

iTrader: (7)

Nah, haven't played with it. Just keeping it MAF for the time being.

I think the 102 TB is partly to blame when combined with a really loose stall. I know I can still stall it out if I really try (like in traffic at a light). The other day, I was pulling away and had to slam on my brakes as the idiot in front of me stopped trying to get over into the other lane. I stalled. It's because I was at 2300-2400 RPM and not moving fast (maybe 15mph) and then when I took my foot off it fell to back to 1000 RPM or so. Well that sudden violent drop while slamming the brakes pulled the engine down to 500 and it cut off. I had the A/C on and haven't done as much with the airflow there. I haven't been able to stall it with A/C off... so I know I just gotta keep ramping up the A/C torque numbers. They are 1.8X stock right now. Ugh.

So I'd like to find a stock TB and try it with this setup. I sold mine.

But I have a couple of things planned that may help: going with an S60 with 3.73s gears (vs the 3.23s I have now) will bring my RPMs up. And I may get a restall to a 3600 triple disc to get me all set for a D1 Procharger. Having a tighter stall and more gear means I won't fall as hard.

But with the A/C off, I have the airflow set well enough that it maintains 1100RPM until idle routines kick in. And that's high enough that the load of brakes and power steering doesn't pull it down. I haven't been able to get it to go into oscillation with the A/C off. I have with the A/C on. So I know it still needs more airflow. It's warm enough now I can use the A/C and try (mid 70s). So I'll work on that this week.

I think that's part of what is happening with the SD tune. The airflow is still wonky. A/F is probably not perfect either. So I plan to just do some RTT with it and make changes in it and not worry about the wideband or anything else. But it's close based on the wideband. And in CL, it holds it to stoich anyway. So the bigger issue has to be airflow. So I'm trying 4g in the 400 column of the cracker table and may add some serious airflow in the 1000 column for 10mph and up so that if the TB slams shut and tries to take the engine with it, the IAC will pump a ton of air in. As long as it doesn't oscillate, it'll be okay. I have it set for around .3g/sec now... but that may be better at 1.5g or more as a stall saver. I'll play with it.

statesman

You're not maintaining enough air in your intake manifold when you shut the throttle... watch your MAP readings!

It's all about engine torque at idle. With a cam, you get less torque at idle, so you need more air just to idle. You also need a whole lot more air to combat any load (like A/C) to maintain stable idle... so just give it what it needs, even if you end up at 2.5X or even 3X stock values.

JakeFusion

iTrader: (7)

I played with the bottom of the VE table in OL and got it where it seemed like it behaved (I didn't even both with the wideband). And then I put in CL and drove it around to try and get the airflow map closer.

I added 5% across the board to the base airflow, 20% to the A/C torque, and put in more air in the cracker table in the 400 and 1000 columns and took airflow out above 40mph in the 1000 and 1600 column as too much air there makes the car buck as I take my foot off the gas. I still am playing with that some, but it now comes to a stop much better without much of a surge and doesn't dip. So this is very encouraging. I plan to play with the airflow some more and log it everytime I drive just to perfect the cracker table.

I think it's easier to tune the airflow in SD as the MAF covers up a lot of issues. So once I get airflow damn near perfect in SD, I'll turn on the MAF and run it in a blended CL mode.

fst100

iTrader: (5)

i'll have to upload or send you a copy of my old bin on my old build. I was having oscillation and stalling out issues if I didn't gradually ease off the gas. after some tuning and help from a friend I had it under control and even if I blip the throttle while in drive, hardly ever stalled out. I even went to lower the idle RPM to like 650 to get that mean aggressive lopeyness lol. grant it my build wasn't near yours, just cam/bolt-ons. let me know if you're interested, just PM me.

JakeFusion

iTrader: (7)

Thanks. I just about have it now.

One thing I noticed in my log with the AC on is if it commanded 1g/sec more it went to 210 IAC steps open (which is where I have my max set). But if it commanded 4g/sec it still was at 210 (of course). Luckily that was when the throttle engaged and it didn't matter. But I'm running out of IAC position in my current table by doing that - so if it tries to command 2g/sec more with the A/C, cracker, etc etc, it has no headroom.

So I've scaled it to where I hit 310 by the end and the curve looks pretty much identical. I'll see if this is too much. But I want to give the IAC enough headway to help me.

Firebirdmuscle

iTrader: (16)

Glad to see you ironing this out jake.

Darth_V8r

iTrader: (4)

I'm amazed with all the follower and cracker air you have in there that it's not hanging like crazy.

JakeFusion

iTrader: (7)

Yeah I know. I was thinking about that yesterday and debating whether or not to open the TB up another 1/8 a turn on the set screw.

If the new change doesn't hurt/help anything, I will open the blade a smidge and then log to see if any changes are needed for the IAC effective area table. And then I should be able to use more normalized numbers in cracker/follower. Actually, that's probably a better idea anyway...

JakeFusion

iTrader: (7)

The more aggressive ramp-in on the IAC counts did create the cruise control effect - but that's because the counts were going from like 90-110 to like 180 or 200. So a big swing (and also inaccurate).

So I opened from .55V to .57V and went back to previous settings. It didn't really seem to make much difference. But I was idling at 30-40 counts hot vs 50-60. So then I played with the IAC effective area table again. And I can see how you can get caught in the axle with this very easily!

Open the TB... and you have to change your base airflow. But that's not really true. The base airflow is not really anything. It's just the baseline for the IAC Effective Area lookup. I know cuz I kept fiddling with it in RTT and it doesn't matter. Open the blade as much as you can (I don't know how much - I haven't figured that out - because if I mess with the base airflow and IAC Effective Area, I can open or close the TB quite a bit it seems).

So what do I mean by that? Well, logic would say if you open your TB, you've enlarged the total airflow of "0 IAC counts" so you need to move the IAC Effective Area table to the right. Well if you do that and your IAC counts drop 20 points, just add 5% airflow to your base timing, and the PCM will lookup a cell a few cells to the right in the IAC Effective Area table to the 50-60 count lookup cell. It only stops working when your RPMs rise and then it tries to find something to the left on the table to settle in cleanly. So at that point you know you've probably gone too far with something. But again, I can manipulate where it looks on that table by changing the base airflow.

So I can do almost anything I want here but that doesn't mean the car will drive right. It drove worse doing this. And that's the problem. Even logging and being within 1g/sec is not enough. There are three variables (TB opening, IAC effective area, and Base Airflow) that all directly effect each other. And ultimately the car itself. Making things like Cracker and Follower a bit wonky.

I know the TB probably isn't open enough if I can kill the car. And relying on the IAC to save it is probably not great. But I want to know when the TB is open enough and not too much. As darth said, I'm not getting any kind of cruise control effect. So I'm not there yet. But I need there to be a cruise control effect so I can then back off the TB opening or tune down the IAC by manipulating the effective area table and base airflow. Both of which I can change in RTT. So this weekend I'm going to go for a long drive and just play with it. But I want the TB set properly first. Any ideas? I know I had it within a g/sec before desired and actual airflow... but it wasn't enough airflow.

Figuring out the right amount of TB opening is a way to eliminate the biggest variable... Could I just pull the IAC valve and set the screw until it essentially idles on its own? If I unplug does it go to 0 or 310? Or whatever the park positions means (which is just an airflow table that the PCM translates). And if it goes to 310, that's fully open. So that's the minimum I'd want the set screw set for, correct?

I think if I got that right, I could log the IAC effective area and make changes to it. And then set the base airflow last. And then I should be able to tweak Cracker/Follower and not have the car die.