Watt's Link the First Step?
11-06-2016, 09:33 PM
#1
Launching!
Thread Starter
Watt's Link the First Step? So I bought the Firebird back in March as my new daily driver and have been doing small things here and there to make it more to my liking and giving myself time to know where I want to improve things. The suspension is stock outside of the DeCarbon shocks, would have to look closer to see the brand but the car rides and handles well for otherwise stock suspension. The only other "mod" relative to the suspension is shortly after buying the car I replaced the 16x8 factory rims with 17x9.5 sawblades wrapped in 275/40-17 BFGoodrich Sport COMP-2 tires front and back, that alone made a huge improvement in the driving feel and ability of the car. As it is now it actually handles better than I expected it would and honestly has impressed me some, but there's always room for improvement.
Which leads to the reason for my post. To give a brief synopsis of my driving the car is my daily but I like driving twisty back roads and mountain roads and hope to get involved with autocross here soon, not too competitively but more for bettering myself further as well as a fun hobby. To try and make a long story shorter I'm used to smaller and lighter Japanese cars with independent rear suspension so driving the Firebird is different in some ways but that's not necessarily a bad thing as I love all types of cars, provided they have two doors and a manual transmission anyway.
So the heart of the matter is this, while driving twisty roads or around a corner there're times where I can feel the rear axle "shimmy" for a lack of better words. It handles the turns at speed fine I just can't push it as hard as I can an IRS car having to keep the rear axle in mind and in check.
I've searched here and across the internet in general and it'd seem a Watt's link is the answer since it keeps the rear axle centered and only let's it travel vertically throughout the suspension's travel, plus the roll center is equal when turning left or right. I also plan on Strano springs with Koni shocks and the rear LCA relocation brackets, but you need an adjustable PHB or the Watt's link after lowering so it'd seem like the Watt's link would be the most logical first step for me. Of course that's just the beginning of the suspension mods I have in mind, but this seemed like the best approach to me. So I wanted to run it by those that have been there done that with the fourth gen F-body in particular before I started buying things and making modifications, thanks for any help and insight that can be provided.
Which leads to the reason for my post. To give a brief synopsis of my driving the car is my daily but I like driving twisty back roads and mountain roads and hope to get involved with autocross here soon, not too competitively but more for bettering myself further as well as a fun hobby. To try and make a long story shorter I'm used to smaller and lighter Japanese cars with independent rear suspension so driving the Firebird is different in some ways but that's not necessarily a bad thing as I love all types of cars, provided they have two doors and a manual transmission anyway.
So the heart of the matter is this, while driving twisty roads or around a corner there're times where I can feel the rear axle "shimmy" for a lack of better words. It handles the turns at speed fine I just can't push it as hard as I can an IRS car having to keep the rear axle in mind and in check.I've searched here and across the internet in general and it'd seem a Watt's link is the answer since it keeps the rear axle centered and only let's it travel vertically throughout the suspension's travel, plus the roll center is equal when turning left or right. I also plan on Strano springs with Koni shocks and the rear LCA relocation brackets, but you need an adjustable PHB or the Watt's link after lowering so it'd seem like the Watt's link would be the most logical first step for me. Of course that's just the beginning of the suspension mods I have in mind, but this seemed like the best approach to me. So I wanted to run it by those that have been there done that with the fourth gen F-body in particular before I started buying things and making modifications, thanks for any help and insight that can be provided.
11-07-2016, 05:56 AM
#2
TECH Senior Member
So I bought the Firebird back in March as my new daily driver and have been doing small things here and there to make it more to my liking and giving myself time to know where I want to improve things. The suspension is stock outside of the DeCarbon shocks, would have to look closer to see the brand but the car rides and handles well for otherwise stock suspension. The only other "mod" relative to the suspension is shortly after buying the car I replaced the 16x8 factory rims with 17x9.5 sawblades wrapped in 275/40-17 BFGoodrich Sport COMP-2 tires front and back, that alone made a huge improvement in the driving feel and ability of the car. As it is now it actually handles better than I expected it would and honestly has impressed me some, but there's always room for improvement.
Which leads to the reason for my post. To give a brief synopsis of my driving the car is my daily but I like driving twisty back roads and mountain roads and hope to get involved with autocross here soon, not too competitively but more for bettering myself further as well as a fun hobby. To try and make a long story shorter I'm used to smaller and lighter Japanese cars with independent rear suspension so driving the Firebird is different in some ways but that's not necessarily a bad thing as I love all types of cars, provided they have two doors and a manual transmission anyway. So the heart of the matter is this, while driving twisty roads or around a corner there're times where I can feel the rear axle "shimmy" for a lack of better words. It handles the turns at speed fine I just can't push it as hard as I can an IRS car having to keep the rear axle in mind and in check.
I've searched here and across the internet in general and it'd seem a Watt's link is the answer since it keeps the rear axle centered and only let's it travel vertically throughout the suspension's travel, plus the roll center is equal when turning left or right. I also plan on Strano springs with Koni shocks and the rear LCA relocation brackets, but you need an adjustable PHB or the Watt's link after lowering so it'd seem like the Watt's link would be the most logical first step for me. Of course that's just the beginning of the suspension mods I have in mind, but this seemed like the best approach to me. So I wanted to run it by those that have been there done that with the fourth gen F-body in particular before I started buying things and making modifications, thanks for any help and insight that can be provided.
Which leads to the reason for my post. To give a brief synopsis of my driving the car is my daily but I like driving twisty back roads and mountain roads and hope to get involved with autocross here soon, not too competitively but more for bettering myself further as well as a fun hobby. To try and make a long story shorter I'm used to smaller and lighter Japanese cars with independent rear suspension so driving the Firebird is different in some ways but that's not necessarily a bad thing as I love all types of cars, provided they have two doors and a manual transmission anyway.
So the heart of the matter is this, while driving twisty roads or around a corner there're times where I can feel the rear axle "shimmy" for a lack of better words. It handles the turns at speed fine I just can't push it as hard as I can an IRS car having to keep the rear axle in mind and in check.I've searched here and across the internet in general and it'd seem a Watt's link is the answer since it keeps the rear axle centered and only let's it travel vertically throughout the suspension's travel, plus the roll center is equal when turning left or right. I also plan on Strano springs with Koni shocks and the rear LCA relocation brackets, but you need an adjustable PHB or the Watt's link after lowering so it'd seem like the Watt's link would be the most logical first step for me. Of course that's just the beginning of the suspension mods I have in mind, but this seemed like the best approach to me. So I wanted to run it by those that have been there done that with the fourth gen F-body in particular before I started buying things and making modifications, thanks for any help and insight that can be provided.
Also you can skip the relocation brackets, see if you get any wheel hop and if you do then you can consider them.
11-07-2016, 01:57 PM
#3
Best thing to do, is call me. We can make it *SOOOOOO* much better it won't be funny. And sure a Watts link is a great thing, but I think you are putting the cart in front of the horse by talking more about it than the more basic, and more pressing issues like the dampers, springs (if deemed necessary or warranted), and sway bar changes.
As is usually the case JD is on the ball, he's learned very well over the years and very much understands my methods. He's also been down a similar road.
Long story short, instead of depending too much on what I like to term internet wisdom, just cut to the chase and call me. The sooner you do that, the easier it is to cut through the crap folks often pick up from reading too much.
As is usually the case JD is on the ball, he's learned very well over the years and very much understands my methods. He's also been down a similar road.
Long story short, instead of depending too much on what I like to term internet wisdom, just cut to the chase and call me. The sooner you do that, the easier it is to cut through the crap folks often pick up from reading too much.
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11-07-2016, 02:03 PM
#4
Launching!
Thread Starter
You are on the right path, don't over look strano swaybars either, they make a massive improvement. And make sure you are buying the koni single adjustables, those are the real deal.
Also you can skip the relocation brackets, see if you get any wheel hop and if you do then you can consider them.
Also you can skip the relocation brackets, see if you get any wheel hop and if you do then you can consider them.
11-07-2016, 02:09 PM
#5
My bars come with new mounts. If you want the UMI mounts we can include those as well, but the standard mounts work just fine. 
But again, what I don't see in that post above is mention of better damper and such.
But again, what I don't see in that post above is mention of better damper and such.
__________________
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www.stranoparts.com --814-849-3450
18 SCCA National Championships in house, many more for our customers prove we know our stuff.Talk is cheap, results matter.
Check out our KONI prices, our Master Cylinder Brace, and new Xtracker Hub/wheel bearing upgrade kits!
11-07-2016, 02:27 PM
#6
Launching!
Thread Starter
Best thing to do, is call me. We can make it *SOOOOOO* much better it won't be funny. And sure a Watts link is a great thing, but I think you are putting the cart in front of the horse by talking more about it than the more basic, and more pressing issues like the dampers, springs (if deemed necessary or warranted), and sway bar changes.
As is usually the case JD is on the ball, he's learned very well over the years and very much understands my methods. He's also been down a similar road.
Long story short, instead of depending too much on what I like to term internet wisdom, just cut to the chase and call me. The sooner you do that, the easier it is to cut through the crap folks often pick up from reading too much.
As is usually the case JD is on the ball, he's learned very well over the years and very much understands my methods. He's also been down a similar road.
Long story short, instead of depending too much on what I like to term internet wisdom, just cut to the chase and call me. The sooner you do that, the easier it is to cut through the crap folks often pick up from reading too much.
11-07-2016, 03:00 PM
#7
I do appreciate the consideration about the time. However, it's kind of a chicken and the egg situation. I spend a lot of time debunking things that folks have kind of picked up. So in a way it's much more efficient to just talk about stuff first thing.
Sam
Sam
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Trending Topics
11-07-2016, 03:48 PM
#8
Watts link is icing on the cake IMO. I did koni/strano and bars first THEN Watts Link.
Sometimes it is hard to justify the WL over a Adj PHB due to cost. If your goal is a real competitive autocross car, a WL will never hurt...just the wallet lol.
Some drive their cars on the street "hard" with an adj PHB and are very happy. The more you drive it at the limit (NOT on the street) the more you find shortcomings of certain components.
Once you learn the car and can push it, I suspect a differential may be on your list. Will you do that before a WL? Maybe, maybe not.
But 100% talk to Sam or UMI. I try to ask people what their goals are for the car then build to meet those goals. Like Sam said, don't get hung up too much on internet forums. Nothing worse IMO than spending all sorts of money for things you will use to 25% of their potential. Some like "look at me mods" some do them for a purpose.
A Fbody with proper shocks/springs/swaybars/tires can be very fun. Add race seat/harness/differential/watts link and it becomes that much better all while not making you broke (compared to messing with a C5).
Sometimes it is hard to justify the WL over a Adj PHB due to cost. If your goal is a real competitive autocross car, a WL will never hurt...just the wallet lol.
Some drive their cars on the street "hard" with an adj PHB and are very happy. The more you drive it at the limit (NOT on the street) the more you find shortcomings of certain components.
Once you learn the car and can push it, I suspect a differential may be on your list. Will you do that before a WL? Maybe, maybe not.
But 100% talk to Sam or UMI. I try to ask people what their goals are for the car then build to meet those goals. Like Sam said, don't get hung up too much on internet forums. Nothing worse IMO than spending all sorts of money for things you will use to 25% of their potential. Some like "look at me mods" some do them for a purpose.
A Fbody with proper shocks/springs/swaybars/tires can be very fun. Add race seat/harness/differential/watts link and it becomes that much better all while not making you broke (compared to messing with a C5).
11-07-2016, 05:51 PM
#9
Honestly the only issue with people being 'happy' with a PHB is it's pretty much a 100% guarantee they only have that knowledge to tell you. If they have not run a Watts, or ran one that was crappy, or not well setup, or on a car that was otherwise a mess it's hard to get a true read.
I have one on this car. Came with it. Sold it to the original owner as after putting one on my first 4th gen, the 2001 White car, and then two on two different Mustangs I will never not have one on a solid axle car I own again. Period.
I have one on this car. Came with it. Sold it to the original owner as after putting one on my first 4th gen, the 2001 White car, and then two on two different Mustangs I will never not have one on a solid axle car I own again. Period.
__________________
www.stranoparts.com --814-849-3450
18 SCCA National Championships in house, many more for our customers prove we know our stuff.Talk is cheap, results matter.
Check out our KONI prices, our Master Cylinder Brace, and new Xtracker Hub/wheel bearing upgrade kits!
www.stranoparts.com --814-849-3450
18 SCCA National Championships in house, many more for our customers prove we know our stuff.Talk is cheap, results matter.
Check out our KONI prices, our Master Cylinder Brace, and new Xtracker Hub/wheel bearing upgrade kits!
11-07-2016, 06:02 PM
#10
I think it does like this:
1. GOOD shocks
2. Springs if inclined to change as it's best to do the those and shocks together to save time and and labor
3. Sway bars, this could move to #2 if no springs are done, OR if you are looking purely on a level of improvement scale/not counting extra time and effort to do springs as a 3rd step instead.
4. Watts link
Those are the "big 4".
From there YMMV. Could be a better limited slip, could be SFC's. Maybe LCA's. I never made any assumption here. Maybe a Torque arm. Often folks are so happy with the big 4 we move to other arena's. Better brakes, exhaust, headers, shifter, light flywheel, etc.
1. GOOD shocks
2. Springs if inclined to change as it's best to do the those and shocks together to save time and and labor
3. Sway bars, this could move to #2 if no springs are done, OR if you are looking purely on a level of improvement scale/not counting extra time and effort to do springs as a 3rd step instead.
4. Watts link
Those are the "big 4".
From there YMMV. Could be a better limited slip, could be SFC's. Maybe LCA's. I never made any assumption here. Maybe a Torque arm. Often folks are so happy with the big 4 we move to other arena's. Better brakes, exhaust, headers, shifter, light flywheel, etc.
__________________
www.stranoparts.com --814-849-3450
18 SCCA National Championships in house, many more for our customers prove we know our stuff.Talk is cheap, results matter.
Check out our KONI prices, our Master Cylinder Brace, and new Xtracker Hub/wheel bearing upgrade kits!
www.stranoparts.com --814-849-3450
18 SCCA National Championships in house, many more for our customers prove we know our stuff.Talk is cheap, results matter.
Check out our KONI prices, our Master Cylinder Brace, and new Xtracker Hub/wheel bearing upgrade kits!
11-07-2016, 06:16 PM
#11
TECH Addict
Id listen to Sam^^^^^^^
Ive always been amazed at how many parts get thrown at cars before someone actually tries to tune the suspension thats there.. Good bushings, checking tire pressure etc. And as the suspension gets stiffer the tires have to get better its an evil mix! Heck I've seen 5 lbs of air give a guy 5 seconds per lap. He was starting too high..
Ive always been amazed at how many parts get thrown at cars before someone actually tries to tune the suspension thats there.. Good bushings, checking tire pressure etc. And as the suspension gets stiffer the tires have to get better its an evil mix!
Heck I've seen 5 lbs of air give a guy 5 seconds per lap. He was starting too high..
11-07-2016, 07:22 PM
#12
Launching!
Thread Starter
Ahhh so many responses since could last check. Like mentioned earlier initially I was thinking shocks & springs first, but after reading that relocation brackets and the adjustable PHB were needed in conjunction with lowering and knowing I'd want a Watt's link and not the PHB setup is why the Watt's link was moved ahead. Trust me I have no qualms in buying the less expensive parts first, but the axle shimmy is the biggest issue I have with the car and want it gone.
I'm more of a momentum driver since I'm used to cars with lower power and maintaining as much speed as possible through corners is key. I bought the Firebird since I've loved the early fourth gen since I was a kid, but I also wanted a V8 backed by manual transmissions moving the rear wheels. Few choices there with that combination and in my opinion the 4th gen F-body is one of the better options. As to how I drive it on a daily basis I'm never abusive and more often than not I'm granny shifting at 2,000-2,500 to maintain my mid-upper 20's mpg, but I'll take it to 5,000 in first and/or second every now and then when getting onto the highway or interstate. Though like mentioned initially I love twisty back roads and mountain roads taking the corners at speed plus. Powertrain wise I'm happy with it stock except for where I changed the air intake and exhaust more for auditory indulgement than anything else, and then put in a Core Shifters stick for improved shifter feel. Brakes I'd like to improve along with the suspension, but that's a whole other discussion.
I'd like to talk to Mr. Strano, but I'd hate to waste his time when he has customers that're wanting to buy now and not in a couple months plus I know he has the new Camaro to work on. I hate being a burden and it seems like the heart of the matter was addressed in his last post. When it comes time I'm ready to buy I'll be more comfortable taking his time over the phone.
I'm more of a momentum driver since I'm used to cars with lower power and maintaining as much speed as possible through corners is key. I bought the Firebird since I've loved the early fourth gen since I was a kid, but I also wanted a V8 backed by manual transmissions moving the rear wheels. Few choices there with that combination and in my opinion the 4th gen F-body is one of the better options. As to how I drive it on a daily basis I'm never abusive and more often than not I'm granny shifting at 2,000-2,500 to maintain my mid-upper 20's mpg, but I'll take it to 5,000 in first and/or second every now and then when getting onto the highway or interstate. Though like mentioned initially I love twisty back roads and mountain roads taking the corners at speed plus. Powertrain wise I'm happy with it stock except for where I changed the air intake and exhaust more for auditory indulgement than anything else, and then put in a Core Shifters stick for improved shifter feel. Brakes I'd like to improve along with the suspension, but that's a whole other discussion.
I'd like to talk to Mr. Strano, but I'd hate to waste his time when he has customers that're wanting to buy now and not in a couple months plus I know he has the new Camaro to work on. I hate being a burden and it seems like the heart of the matter was addressed in his last post. When it comes time I'm ready to buy I'll be more comfortable taking his time over the phone.
11-07-2016, 09:30 PM
#13
12 Second Club
Boxxx, I just wanted to say I like where your head is at. You seem to be considerate of other people and their opinions, yet have enough intuition to sort thru the crap and do what seems logical to you. I hope you have the same discipline on the twisty roads plan for the unexpected and leave yourself some wiggle room even after you get that shimmy sorted out. Whatever route you go remember to post back!
I'm not going to get this off-topic, but I do have a question for Strano while he's here: how do Koni's hold up to serious abuse? Like, a couple of miles a few times a week, down horrible rock filled Texas dirt country roads full of off-camber braking (and acceleration) bumps and potholes? Can you build me a setup for this or need a test subject? If so, I'll just call you. I also tucked up a class 5 hitch through the license plate and pull small trailers around so this is not your average clientele. 262k miles. IDGAF as long as it works and lasts.
plan for the unexpected and leave yourself some wiggle room even after you get that shimmy sorted out. Whatever route you go remember to post back!I'm not going to get this off-topic, but I do have a question for Strano while he's here: how do Koni's hold up to serious abuse? Like, a couple of miles a few times a week, down horrible rock filled Texas dirt country roads full of off-camber braking (and acceleration) bumps and potholes? Can you build me a setup for this or need a test subject? If so, I'll just call you. I also tucked up a class 5 hitch through the license plate and pull small trailers around so this is not your average clientele. 262k miles. IDGAF as long as it works and lasts.
11-07-2016, 11:07 PM
#14
Launching!
Thread Starter
Thanks, that's very kind of you. Indeed I always go through any new road at the posted speed, or slower if it feels warranted, the first time and even then I'll only go 5 over on subsequent times since I've never gotten a ticket and I intend to keep it that way. Plus there's a place and time for everything and driving like a complete bat out of Hell on public roads is not it, that's where sanctioned racing comes in. Think of me as a younger not British James May, I'm still mad someone took the personal tag CAPNSLO from me. 
11-08-2016, 08:30 AM
#15
Move up to LS1 front brakes and braided lines and good pads. Much better than LT1 brakes and minimal cost. You can pick everything up at a junkyard (except braided lines).
As Sam said, shocks, springs, bars, watts link. Since you need an adj PHB for lowering springs and you don't want a PHB, then I'd hold off until you can get a watts link and buy it all at one and install all at once.
As Sam said, shocks, springs, bars, watts link. Since you need an adj PHB for lowering springs and you don't want a PHB, then I'd hold off until you can get a watts link and buy it all at one and install all at once.
11-08-2016, 11:13 AM
#16
I agree with the others, the shocks are absolutely the first thing to upgrade. They were a night and day difference on my TA. If you feel there is something broken in your rear suspension, certainly get it fixed, but I ran my car in many years of AX with the PHB and did pretty well, only after 12 years I finally got to a Watts. It's better, but not so much better. If the Koni shocks improved the car 100%, a Watts only improved it by 5%. Just to put it in some kind of relative terms of improvement.
Also FWIW, braided lines did not give me any improved braking feel or power. And that seems to be the consensus among AXers/corner carvers.
Also FWIW, braided lines did not give me any improved braking feel or power. And that seems to be the consensus among AXers/corner carvers.
11-08-2016, 12:47 PM
#17
Launching!
Thread Starter
I've been waiting for the local pick n' pull to get a few '98-02 F-bodies so hopefully between them there's one good set of spindles and calipers there, and maybe a few more parts that strike my fancy that I could use. Speak of the devil there's one Firebird and one Camaro now, will have to find time to go asap.
The shocks have been replaced but I haven't looked in depth to see as to what, I just know they're a lot better than the DeCarbon my father's '96 Z28 had. That being said they're still getting replaced since I know they're not the Konis anyway.
The shocks have been replaced but I haven't looked in depth to see as to what, I just know they're a lot better than the DeCarbon my father's '96 Z28 had. That being said they're still getting replaced since I know they're not the Konis anyway.
11-08-2016, 04:08 PM
#18
Call Sam now. Take notes. Then when you're ready, call and order. If you have a list in front of you you'll feel better.
Ahhh so many responses since could last check. Like mentioned earlier initially I was thinking shocks & springs first, but after reading that relocation brackets and the adjustable PHB were needed in conjunction with lowering and knowing I'd want a Watt's link and not the PHB setup is why the Watt's link was moved ahead. Trust me I have no qualms in buying the less expensive parts first, but the axle shimmy is the biggest issue I have with the car and want it gone.
I'm more of a momentum driver since I'm used to cars with lower power and maintaining as much speed as possible through corners is key. I bought the Firebird since I've loved the early fourth gen since I was a kid, but I also wanted a V8 backed by manual transmissions moving the rear wheels. Few choices there with that combination and in my opinion the 4th gen F-body is one of the better options. As to how I drive it on a daily basis I'm never abusive and more often than not I'm granny shifting at 2,000-2,500 to maintain my mid-upper 20's mpg, but I'll take it to 5,000 in first and/or second every now and then when getting onto the highway or interstate. Though like mentioned initially I love twisty back roads and mountain roads taking the corners at speed plus. Powertrain wise I'm happy with it stock except for where I changed the air intake and exhaust more for auditory indulgement than anything else, and then put in a Core Shifters stick for improved shifter feel. Brakes I'd like to improve along with the suspension, but that's a whole other discussion.
I'd like to talk to Mr. Strano, but I'd hate to waste his time when he has customers that're wanting to buy now and not in a couple months plus I know he has the new Camaro to work on. I hate being a burden and it seems like the heart of the matter was addressed in his last post. When it comes time I'm ready to buy I'll be more comfortable taking his time over the phone.
I'm more of a momentum driver since I'm used to cars with lower power and maintaining as much speed as possible through corners is key. I bought the Firebird since I've loved the early fourth gen since I was a kid, but I also wanted a V8 backed by manual transmissions moving the rear wheels. Few choices there with that combination and in my opinion the 4th gen F-body is one of the better options. As to how I drive it on a daily basis I'm never abusive and more often than not I'm granny shifting at 2,000-2,500 to maintain my mid-upper 20's mpg, but I'll take it to 5,000 in first and/or second every now and then when getting onto the highway or interstate. Though like mentioned initially I love twisty back roads and mountain roads taking the corners at speed plus. Powertrain wise I'm happy with it stock except for where I changed the air intake and exhaust more for auditory indulgement than anything else, and then put in a Core Shifters stick for improved shifter feel. Brakes I'd like to improve along with the suspension, but that's a whole other discussion.
I'd like to talk to Mr. Strano, but I'd hate to waste his time when he has customers that're wanting to buy now and not in a couple months plus I know he has the new Camaro to work on. I hate being a burden and it seems like the heart of the matter was addressed in his last post. When it comes time I'm ready to buy I'll be more comfortable taking his time over the phone.