Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

Shocks matter most. They are the foundation a car that works well it built on. Springs and shocks have to work together, and you just can't slap any spring on there and call it good. Bars need to work with the other two things. That's why those are the big 3, the 3 things that, if you can't do ANYTHING else on the car, you should address first.

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

Just few examples of how/what we do with these cars.

BMR Sales2

iTrader: (40)

My day isn't complete without rustling some jimmies with facts and information that dispel "theories" lol. I suppose with this new found information I should cut the Sfc's and cage out of my 8 second car since the chassis should be rigid enough not to need them since I have good shocks and springs


And for the record yes I do have first hand experience with a before and after with a car with good shocks and springs. My old Lt1 Formula is now a regularly competing autocross car. The first things the new owner did was Koni sports with aggressive spring rates. The car felt much better, but still had some of the typical creaks and groans and the infamous passenger seat shake. The owner couldn't take it anymore and finally got some sfc's. All the former ailments were alleviated. This is just one I have personally felt and been able to directly compare. Not to mention the dozens of other people who have called and told me what they have noticed with it as well. It's not a sales pitch, its experience.


I have an option for that as well:
http://bmrsuspension.com/index.cfm?p...489&superpro=0

JD_AMG

You most certainly can take the SFC's out if you have a cage. But we were not talking about 8 second race cars, and if your baseline for calling a chassis a wet noodle is if they flex at all while putting that kind of power down to run 8s then just about all cars on the road are wet noodles.
Also you are likely not running "good" shocks and springs if they are drag oriented - thats only going to make every symptom worse/have the car feeling like a loose boat

So the answer is no? I specifically said bone stock + koni sports (that includes stock springs), that is a true apples to apples comparison. The fact the car had creaks and groans tells me the bushings were likely worn as well.
He probably added other things at the same time as the SFC's didn't he, like LCAs or swaybars?

LMFAO you are reaching with the passenger seat shake... my god man...
Why didn't my passenger seat (or anyone else's that ive ever heard of) not change at all after installing SFCs? Why didn't anything change? The shitty seat mount and shitty seat design have nothing to do with the chassis, you tighten the seat down properly and it doesn't shake anymore.


My cousin's, friend's, brother's, boss called and told me otherwise, its experience.
Honestly if SFCs really did make a noticeable difference there would never be any arguments otherwise. We wouldn't even be discussing this right now, it wouldn't even be an opinion.
Im not necessarily against them, its just the fact that if someone wants to buy a part and notice a difference/gain performance benefit from it, then SFC's are not it for our cars.

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

My day is not complete until I spend hours and hours trying to undo things folks "heard on the internet".

It is clear that not everyone agrees with what matters most and when. I stand by my results, post my video, and explain in detail why I feel the way I feel. So what I recommend, and always have, is that if customers are confused that they don't rely on internet wisdom. I don't care who it's from, myself included. Pick up the phone and discuss it with me, BMR, UMI, MidWest, whoever. But understand we don't come from the same background and you will, never get, the same answer from any of us except on the most basic of basic things. And maybe not even then.

Trouble is folks don't really know about suspension, and they don't really want to learn about it much. There are exceptions even in the industry. One company I can think of has worked very hard to improve their understanding and their product line. But customers, they tend to move off of what they hear.

Not an hour ago I talked to a nice guy named Travis from Southern California. He already went out and bought some stuff that are commonly recommended by "the forum" and the car handles no better than before, and it rides worse. He called me looking for one thing, but as the discussion progressed it became clear to me he NEEDED something else. But that something else costs more than what he wanted. I then reminded him that the right part for the job is the right part for the job. Putting on another part that cost less but isn't helpful to gain the desired result isn't all that helpful either.

landstuhltaylor

iTrader: (6)

You don't read very much do you?

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

Well, Devin's case is "special". And not helped by the crazy clutch in the car.... I never broke a diff. My car ended up breaking one after I sold it. Brian Burdette broke one @ 160k miles. Madarash broke one only once where I was running ESP with him, and that was a lot over the course of a number of year.

So yeah, they can break. But really for how many are out there. The fact most are street driven. The fact the same rear was under every S10 and Astro van (adding to the numbers significantly). All in all it's not terrible. And if you don't drag the hell out of them and you don't do the teeny tiny pinion gears that 4.10's use you buy yourself some insurance.

Also, people are HUGELY neglectful of their diff oil. It's got less than 2 quarts in it. There is no cooler, and it takes all that pounding. So it's important to run good stuff and keep it in good shape.

landstuhltaylor

iTrader: (6)

Agreed Sam. However, to say it hasn't happened isn't true especially when you start talking 450+who road course cars. Not super common but not unheard of.

So as for mine, broke a brand new one after 23 ProSolo runs and 3 local events. The second one exploded after 6 match tour runs and 7 ProSolo runs (likely the shockproof helped the first one last as long as it did.)

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

I really don't see many break, honestly. I mean yeah it happens, but I mean nothing is in destructible and 450 hp on road course is less brutal on them than 350 hp drag racing to be sure.

y2keglide

iTrader: (2)

Ok so here's the plan so far.
That is unless someone sees a conflict of interest.
I have the BMR torque arm and relocation crossmember and the UMI poly roto-joint LCA's
so I plan to install those along with the BMR bolt on SBC's.
Some say they won't help handling but I guess they won't hurt and should add some strength.
I looked at the panhard rod and it is an adjustable not a non-adjustable like I thought so that will go on as well.
Next money spent will be for all new stuff, what I bought so far was all used but nice so not much spent.
I'm looking at the Koni Sport Set--Option shocks front and rear, a little over $800 for the set and a set of Strano sway bars for both ends at about $390.
I'll stay with the lowering springs that are on the car for now and hope for the best, worst case scenario I'll have to swap them out later but hopefully I'll see enough of a change in handling that I'll be happy with what I have.
Thanks to all who replied, any more comments welcomed.

JD_AMG

Sounds like a solid plan.
Do yourself a favor and install one thing at a time. That way you can feel the difference each part makes and you will know if something gives you a undesireable effect or gets installed wrong. Throwing everything at the car all at once is usually a recepe for disaster, and you never end up knowing what part is contributing to how the car feels and drives.
If you want you can do an experiment as well and install the sfcs after shocks and see if you feel a difference.

y2keglide

iTrader: (2)

Thanks JD seems like sound advice.

y2keglide

iTrader: (2)

Well I want to learn and that's why I started this thread.
After much consideration I've decided to get one of your package deals.
I assume it's a proven combination that will work well together so why try anything else.
Looking at the Handling Package 6: Strano Springs + Koni shock set w/off-car adjustable rear shocks + Strano Hollow Sway Bar set.
I figure I can resell the existing lowering springs on craigslist easy enough and probably the stock sway bars since they're an upgrade for a lot of '93-'02 non-SS cars.
Might be a while before I order, would love to do it this Spring with my engine upgrades but it may have to wait 'till late Summer or Fall, just depends on how busy we are at work and how much OT I score between now and then.I definitely plan on this for sure though. I just dropped a couple grand on ARH headers and a new Katech timing set and GM performance oil pump to go with my LS6 heads and new cam,LS7 lifters, Comp Cams hardened pushrods and double valve springs and I still have to pay for labor at the tuner shop so my budget is screaming at me. lol
I already ordered the brake master cylinder brace and will be getting the stainless lines upgrade soon as well.
My only question at this point given I opted to save a couple bucks by getting the non on car adjustable shocks is what setting would you recommend I start with when we install them. I'm not really too concerned with ride quality as much as road handling and stability since this is not a daily driver, I want it to perform. If I wanted ride quality most I'd sell it and buy a Caddy. heh heh

lt16spd1

Don't listen to the guys telling you the 4th gen is as stiff as can be, stiffening the chassis does nothing, blah blah blah. It's bullshit. Engineers and auto manufacturers don't spend millions of dollars and countless hours of research and development trying to create the stiffest unibody/chassis they possibly can for no reason. I recently bought an 07 g35x. The first thing I noticed when I drove it was that holy **** does this thing feel rock solid. I don't know how else to describe it. Well come to find out, the engineers proudly listed the fact that they have increased chassis stiffness by a whopping 40+% over the previous generation. Do you really think they spent all the time and effort on that for no reason at all?

A lot of guys here auto x and hate subframe connectors because it bumps them to higher class and it makes it harder to compete against other guys because the benefit is not enough to warrant them being in a higher class. There is a benefit though. A stiffer chassis allows the shocks to do their job better than a chassis that flexes over the bumps. Also, chassis flex doesn't have dampening like shocks do.

When I jack up my G35x from the front corner, the rear raises at exactly the same rate. When I did the same to my Camaro without subframe connectors, you could hear the chassis twist and flex, and watch the rear tire stay on the ground until the front tire is a few inches up. And I have a full hard top without the t-tops. Don't tell me there aren't improvements to be had, that's such a ridiculous statement I see thrown around here. I have sheet metal covering where the HVAC **** used to be. I can hear it pop pretty loudly over certain bumps and road conditions. After the SFCs, the popping has significantly decreased because chassis flex has decreased. The funniest thing is when people complain that they suck because they made the car ride harder. Well guess what, that's because they are making the shocks work harder and it turns out their shocks weren't as soft as they originally thought.

Don't expect miracles, and there are mods that will be more noticeable, but by no means are SFC a bad mod or a worthless mod. If you get bolt ins, get everything finger tight in the air, then get the vehicle resting fully on the suspension, front and rear, then tighten the **** out of them. You want the chassis to be in its normal position when tightening them, with the suspension fully loaded.


​​​​​​Lastly, definitely go for the 4:10/4:11 gears. You won't regret it one bit. Sure you won't hook for **** in 1st gear, but it's a blast on the street having power in every gear and everyone in the gears and transmission section will tell you the same. Just be careful, it will make that 10 bolt more prone to snapping.
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Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

Shockingly I am going to disagree here.

First I would never recommend 4.10's in a stock rear, unless you like to break stuff. The pinion gear is TINY.

As for the "stiff as can be" argument. I didn't say that. And in fact no car is infinitely stiff. The point is they don't have to be. And also they vary a lot depending what kind of life they have led.

I'd absolutely put SFC's on a car that is drag raced hard, or sees a lot of twisting on a common basis by pulling in or out of a steep driveway kind of thing. Those things induce more chassis twist, and bracing can help.

Now, the shocks matter a lot in terms of the impact harshness and the quivering of the chassis. And since most folks are cheap on shocks, or have crappy ones a lot more impact harshness is put through to the uni-body than is with a quality damper. So you can opt to stiffen the chassis to help deal with the blows, or you can soften the actual blow, or you can do both. The thing is better shocks make the car do other things better too, general ride, braking stability (and distance too) and handle better too.

landstuhltaylor

iTrader: (6)

Subframe connectors also haven't bumped you a class in a few years now

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

Right. Also my current car is not built to any particular rule set, and I've yet to put them on this car.

JD_AMG

You need to reread.
NO ONE is saying stiffening the chassis is bad, the argument is IF SFCs make a noticable difference and that some people think the car needs them or not.

Which further proves my point, if sfcs trully stiffen the chassis it should be immediatly noticble driving the car right? Thats certainly not always the case.
The guys autoxing are not going faster with sfcs either...
Tire off the ground has nothing to do with flex or not, that is suspension droop. This is irs vs solid rear axle. Our rears have a ton more droop than the front and the axle pulls the suspension down, ofcourse its not going to come off the ground. The chassis could be perfectly straight and the rear tire will remain down due to how much travel the rear suspension has. Modify the rear shocks to limit droop and watch the rear tire come off the ground right away.

Again no one said that, the argument is what mods actually make the improvement.

How does sfcs effect firewall flex? Or a piece of metal bolted to flimsy firewall metal that can vibrate either?

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BrntWS6

iTrader: (7)

I am not a sfc fan either, most on here have them but i cut mine out after having them welded in for 8 years and it was one of the best things i did. Only positive thing i can say looking back is it made a good place to jack up the car.

Spamfritter

iTrader: (1)

How can removing your SFC's be a good thing? Cars without them end up being rattle traps. You hear squeaks and miscellaneous rattles going over bumps etc. In cars with them, all of that or nearly all of it stops. I've had cars with and without them and I'd never have one without them again. It's on my list of first mods for any F-body I purchase.