Aerodynamics
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,979
Likes: 3
From: Upstate NY
Originally Posted by chuntington101
F1 cars did the same before the FIA band them! 
Chris
Chris
We've come a long way. An modern F1 could run on the ceiling at about any veloclity > 100 mph.
HPP your Go 387 airfoil with +lift @ 0 AOA does simulate some road cars. By raking the car a tad you can get a slight negative AOA to get rid of the lift. Look at the stance on all the fast (200+) F-bodies that have run at B'ville. That's not just to get the nose in the salt.
When SStrokerAce raced Soap Box Derby, we did a car that had symmetrical NACA airfoil shapes. In the plan view it was almost exact, but in the side view the trailing edges never met. They were different so the sections weren't quite round. I forget the numbers, but they were low-speed ones that fit the car dims.
TECH Addict
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,866
Likes: 4
on the ducing the used radiator air out the top of the engine cover< welll it will produce downforce!
you see you are moving the air about 2 feet up! this means you are applying force to the air! if you push something it pushes you back so it will actually push the car onto the ground! admittedly not a great deal but it will help! this is why racers spend a lot of time and effort on the used air behind the rad and why they duct it up and out the engine bay!
Chris.
you see you are moving the air about 2 feet up! this means you are applying force to the air! if you push something it pushes you back so it will actually push the car onto the ground! admittedly not a great deal but it will help! this is why racers spend a lot of time and effort on the used air behind the rad and why they duct it up and out the engine bay!
Chris.
TECH Enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 740
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by chuntington101
on the ducing the used radiator air out the top of the engine cover< welll it will produce downforce!
you see you are moving the air about 2 feet up! this means you are applying force to the air! if you push something it pushes you back so it will actually push the car onto the ground! admittedly not a great deal but it will help! this is why racers spend a lot of time and effort on the used air behind the rad and why they duct it up and out the engine bay!
Chris.
you see you are moving the air about 2 feet up! this means you are applying force to the air! if you push something it pushes you back so it will actually push the car onto the ground! admittedly not a great deal but it will help! this is why racers spend a lot of time and effort on the used air behind the rad and why they duct it up and out the engine bay!
Chris.
Launching!
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 204
Likes: 0
From: Arizona.
AFAIK the Mclaren F1 used fans like the Can-Am cars.
Im glad Motor Sports has gotten so so much safer over the last 30 years, but you have to admit it would be cool to see just some cras could do if not so hobbled by regs. We have so many examples now of road cars that are street legal making more power than their racing brethren.
Im glad Motor Sports has gotten so so much safer over the last 30 years, but you have to admit it would be cool to see just some cras could do if not so hobbled by regs. We have so many examples now of road cars that are street legal making more power than their racing brethren.
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,979
Likes: 3
From: Upstate NY
Originally Posted by chuntington101
yeah can you imagine the speeds of F1 cars with out the regs????
but then whats the point of racing with out a level playing field?? optherwise the biggest budget wins everytime!
Chris.
but then whats the point of racing with out a level playing field?? optherwise the biggest budget wins everytime!
Chris.
Launching!
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 204
Likes: 0
From: Arizona.
GO MINARDI!!!!!!!
LOL. But true, its not supposed to be about the budget. I wonder though about some regs, weather they hurt the big budget guys or the small budget guys more.
Whats going to be fun though is the GT racing world. The Gallardo is being groomed into a GT car by DTM over in Germany, the 997 GT3 should be out and about soon, the new Aston DB-9 looks like its going to be a contender, the Vettes already here, The F430 is here, and even Maserati is looking to get into it. Very very cool to see that kind of variety around a road course. I need to get cable.
LOL. But true, its not supposed to be about the budget. I wonder though about some regs, weather they hurt the big budget guys or the small budget guys more.
Whats going to be fun though is the GT racing world. The Gallardo is being groomed into a GT car by DTM over in Germany, the 997 GT3 should be out and about soon, the new Aston DB-9 looks like its going to be a contender, the Vettes already here, The F430 is here, and even Maserati is looking to get into it. Very very cool to see that kind of variety around a road course. I need to get cable.
LS1 Tech Stories
The Best V8 Stories One Small Block at Time
6 Common C5 Corvette Failures and What's Involved In Repairing Them
Pouria Savadkouei
Retro Modern Bandit Pontiac Trans AM Comes With Burt Reynolds' Autograph
Verdad Gallardo
Top 10 Greatest Cadillac V Series Performance Models Ever, Ranked
Pouria Savadkouei
Top 10 Most Powerful Chevy Trucks Ever Made!
Hennessey's New Supercharged Silverado ZR2 Has 700 HP
Verdad Gallardo
Coachbuilt N2A Anteros Is an LS2-Powered C6 Corvette In Italian Clothes
Verdad Gallardo
Awesome K5 Blazer Restomod Comes With C7 Corvette Power
Verdad Gallardo
10 Camaros You Should Never Buy
10 LS Engine Myths That Refuse to Die
Verdad Gallardo TECH Addict
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,866
Likes: 4
Originally Posted by Old SStroker
Interestingly enough, perhaps the biggest budget in F1 does NOT win. Why not, Toyota?
i think GT is looking better and better! there are more and more road going racs going into it so hopefully we will see some interesting road stouff coming out to!
Chris.
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,979
Likes: 3
From: Upstate NY
Originally Posted by chuntington101
thats why the regs are there! to try and flatern the playingfield! but ifyou removed them that ts all down to budget! and dont fogrt the budget helps get the driver and the enginers!!!
Chris.
Chris.
TECH Addict
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,866
Likes: 4
coz there are rules in place to 'limit' the cars making its more competative for lower budget teams! like i said before!
also toyota doesn't (yet) have any perticualy good drivers! also their enginers are all new to the game! whereas the "big" names have the drivers and the engiers!
Chris.
PS, pelase dont make me repeat myself yet again!
also toyota doesn't (yet) have any perticualy good drivers! also their enginers are all new to the game! whereas the "big" names have the drivers and the engiers!
Chris.
PS, pelase dont make me repeat myself yet again!
Rumpler I think I can squeeze my LS1 into this....
1921 Rumpler: "The shape was similar to a falling drop of water; its favourable drag coefficient cD=0.28 was equalled again only in the most recent car types".
1921 Rumpler: "The shape was similar to a falling drop of water; its favourable drag coefficient cD=0.28 was equalled again only in the most recent car types".
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,979
Likes: 3
From: Upstate NY
Originally Posted by chuntington101
coz there are rules in place to 'limit' the cars making its more competative for lower budget teams! like i said before!
also Toyota doesn't (yet) have any particularly good drivers! Also their engineers are all new to the game! whereas the "big" names have the drivers and the engineers!
Chris.
PS, please dont make me repeat myself yet again!
also Toyota doesn't (yet) have any particularly good drivers! Also their engineers are all new to the game! whereas the "big" names have the drivers and the engineers!
Chris.
PS, please dont make me repeat myself yet again!
No offense intended, of course.
By the lower (than Toyota) budget teams you mean Renault, Williams, Ferrari, BMW and Honda, right? Evidently Renault must really have a low budget this year.
Chris, I won't make you do anything you don't want to do, believe me.
Perhaps your interpretation of the effects of money on racing does not exactly reflect what has happened in the world of motorsports. A team cannot buy a championship with money, as evidenced by Toyota, among others, but neither do underfunded teams win championships or even win a race or two. IOW, maximum money doesn't guarantee wins nor a championship, but a serious lack of money (compared to the big spenders) does guarantee few if any wins and no chance of a championship in the high-end professional motorsports arena.
One way to look at the "level-the-playing-field" rules is an attempt by the sanctioning body to try to limit the total amount of money that gets spent. It has worked to some extent in the past, but those teams with better financing most often do well.
If you want to get into why or why-not Toyota hasn't achieved much success in F1, you might find it a bit more involved that you stated.
My $.02
TECH Enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 740
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by GainesvilleLS1
I think I can squeeze my LS1 into this....
1921 Rumpler: "The shape was similar to a falling drop of water; its favourable drag coefficient cD=0.28 was equalled again only in the most recent car types".
1921 Rumpler: "The shape was similar to a falling drop of water; its favourable drag coefficient cD=0.28 was equalled again only in the most recent car types".
Just drop your LS1 in a stock bodied '84 Trans Am, and lower it.
>> http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1...ont/84TACd.jpg
TECH Regular
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 430
Likes: 0
"The shape was similar to a falling drop of water"
For what it's worth, a falling drop of water is only shaped like a 'tear drop' just before it breaks loose and starts to fall. When actually falling, it is roughly spherical, but flattened on the bottom...
Yeah, I know:
For what it's worth, a falling drop of water is only shaped like a 'tear drop' just before it breaks loose and starts to fall. When actually falling, it is roughly spherical, but flattened on the bottom...
Yeah, I know:
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,799
Likes: 1
From: USS Enterprise 1701
Originally Posted by HPP
Re: windshield rake - this would only be a factor in cases of all else being equal, and then it would largely depend on the rear of the car. 4th Gen Firebirds and Trans Ams are much more hourglass shaped. That's not going to be as good as the more cylinder-like sides of the 3rd Gen. Add to that the wider tires and wings that I suspect are more effective on 4th Gens, to say nothing of the extra holes on the front, and it's no real surprise that the 4th Gens end up with a higher Cd than the 3rd. Despite the windshield. (IOW - rake isn't all that important, unless you're talking about an flat wind screen on a Model T or something)
To be fair... I doubt there is a whopping differance in C/d between a 3rd gen, 4th gen, C5 or even C6. They all share a common shape.
TECH Enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 740
Likes: 0
You just won't let this one go, will ya?
So, you're saying then, that the wind tunnel data is a lie? That the 4th Gen F-Bodies are more aerodynamic than stated?
The C6 and early 3rd Gens both had lower Cds than the LS1 4th Gens. Both those cars had less rake to the windshield. So.... either the wind tunnel data is a lie, or the windshield doesn't have as much effect as you think.
So, you're saying then, that the wind tunnel data is a lie? That the 4th Gen F-Bodies are more aerodynamic than stated?
The C6 and early 3rd Gens both had lower Cds than the LS1 4th Gens. Both those cars had less rake to the windshield. So.... either the wind tunnel data is a lie, or the windshield doesn't have as much effect as you think.
Originally Posted by HPP
The C6 and early 3rd Gens both had lower Cds than the LS1 4th Gens. Both those cars had less rake to the windshield. So.... either the wind tunnel data is a lie, or the windshield doesn't have as much effect as you think.