gapless rings or not?
Originally Posted by racer7088
Basically why fix something that isn't broken in the first place?
You need to find some serious engine builders that really have tested these rings that recommend them heartily....
...and for a regular street car.
I have found none that will so far and like I said and I know lots of real shops that have run them a lot and the regular rings a lot and I know what they use........As has been said already, NONE of the oems will touch any of this stuff. If they were so good why wouldn't anyone be using them at all?
DO you want to be a guinnie pig for how this stuff works on the street or have to pull them if they smoke?
Just found this:
http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic...75ead02073a111
I especially liked this post:
.....makes sense
http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic...75ead02073a111
I especially liked this post:
A year+ gone by on the subject of the Total Seal Gapless TOP ring, but my experience with the effort on two identical SOHC Ford 4-cylinder engines with dual Weber's and dry-sumps. Two separate engines with a vacuum gauge on the lower case to monitor vacuum. The degradation of the Gapless top ring occurred at nearly the same time on both circle track engines. Near the end of the 3rd race on both engines, we noticed the vacuum in the lower case would decrease 2" - 4" as the driver got back into the throttle. The vacuum appeared steady and stable the first 2 races regardless of throttle position. By the end of the 4th race on both engines, the vacuum would decrease to nearly zero with throttle application and the driver could feel the degradation of engine power output. My theory on the failure, not subscrided to by Total Seal? Due to the lack of contact area with the piston land on the bottom side of the ring, with the Gapless rail in place, the rings overheated and lost considerable radial tension. Even with combustion attempting to seal the rings with pressure at the backside, the seal became insufficient to do a good job of keeping the gas in the chamber. I believe the Gapless rail isolates the underside of the top ring excessively and heat removal becomes a problem. The rings were 1/16", there's .135" of aluminum between the top of the land and the piston deck, and the pistons were TBC with Swain 'Gold Armor'. At that point, I immediately converted to use of lateral gas ports and the 'pressure balance' groove with the standard 1/16" moly top ring, and the engines ran like never before. Although I did experience one engine failure which forced a self-education in proper ring end-gap using lateral ports with my ring stack.
TECH Junkie
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,092
Likes: 11
I will jump back in again. What I have found with research is there are just a very few postors that report an upside to Total Seal rings. You have to follow the honing and installation instructions to a tee in order to get any success.
There are a lot more postors that have had problems or have seen no improvement. For me I did not want to take the chance again for no reward. I went with the file fit rings and it has been a success. By the way when my motor was torn down the rings had lost their tension as was reported by the poster you referred to.
There are a lot more postors that have had problems or have seen no improvement. For me I did not want to take the chance again for no reward. I went with the file fit rings and it has been a success. By the way when my motor was torn down the rings had lost their tension as was reported by the poster you referred to.
FormerVendor
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,065
Likes: 6
From: Houston, Tx.
I don't know why page one stopped working? But anyway beast69camaro that can be another problem and that's if the top unloads it also loses the ability to shed as much heat as well which will kill a lot of rings. The only place I have seen the gapless seconds work is where there is a small top gap and a lot of area in between with the large accumulator groove as well. I think with enough volume in there the top would stay sealed but the gapless seconds still don't seem to be that good of an oil scaper.
Remember I have them in my own street car and it runs fine but absolutely no better than the other two I have with regular rings that cost much less. My deal was done a LONG time ago by a good shop here in Houston and it did use a little oil but again no more than stock. I think with nice Speed-Pros or regular Total Seals though it might have been even better or drier but I can't say that for sure.
Remember I have them in my own street car and it runs fine but absolutely no better than the other two I have with regular rings that cost much less. My deal was done a LONG time ago by a good shop here in Houston and it did use a little oil but again no more than stock. I think with nice Speed-Pros or regular Total Seals though it might have been even better or drier but I can't say that for sure.
Yeah, I have also come to the conclusion that gapless second rings are worthless about the middle of page one of this thread. My question since then had been whether any gains could be realized problem free and reliably from gapless TOPS. Now the use of 2 rings in one groove on total seal's gapless design, and the subsequent reduction in ring thickness was the only thing I was worried about from the get go. Even that one quote from the last article I posted is enough to make me not want to use gapless tops, especially since I will be using nitrous at some point. So Erik, I am sold on your conventional top/napier second package. I will be calling you in a bit.
signs?......a loss of radial tension. I dunno how you'd go about measuring that, other than feeling for a decrease in drag when pulling a ring through the bore when compared to a new ring. Maybe look for flaking of the moly coating (if applicable)...
Oh and Erik, you have a PM.
Oh and Erik, you have a PM.
TECH Apprentice
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 320
Likes: 5
From: Nottingham, Notts, England, UK
I was wondering if they went blue or showed signs of tempering. I'd expect a ring to pull through a bore if it's been run in, more easily but not having done the test I don't know what to think.
Boosted.
Boosted.
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Verdad Gallardo TECH Apprentice
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 320
Likes: 5
From: Nottingham, Notts, England, UK
Originally Posted by racer7088
The only place I have seen the gapless seconds work is where there is a small top gap and a lot of area in between with the large accumulator groove as well. I think with enough volume in there the top would stay sealed but the gapless seconds still don't seem to be that good of an oil scaper.
