drive or OD
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Mar 2011
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From: Maryland
I have stock 3.23's and I wasn't even close to shifting into OD at the end of the 1/4, should have tried D but I honestly don't think it would have effected anything, especially on a stock'ish car.
Teching In
Joined: May 2012
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From: Nevada, Texas
If your talking about a 4L60E then I would put it in Drive, when the shifter is placed in the D position the over-run clutches come on and help the sprag out.
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Problem is on a stock 4L60E, they don't come on until 3rd gear, so as soon as it tries to shift to 3rd, it also takes some of the oil away to apply the over-run clutches. The 3-4 clutches already have a tough life. Leave the shifter in OD on a stock 4L60E.
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 19
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From: Nevada, Texas
Moderator
Joined: Aug 2010
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From: Ann Arbor, MI
I have seen that chart in e.g. the ATSG manual, and I think it is wrong.
The GM HMTG (Hydramatic 4L60E Technicians Guide) has the correct table and in the [D] position the overrrun clutch is NOT applied in 1st and 2nd gear, only in 3rd gear.
And, Sonnax makes a 2-3 shift valve which adds overrun to 1st and 2nd gear in [D].
http://www.sonnax.com/system/announcement/77754-41.pdf
The table Sonnax shows on that page is the correct one.
In other words, if you want the "common" table that WRT posted, you have to install the Sonnax valve.
I will update this thread later today when I have the HMTG manual in front of me.
(Believe it or not, I run an Internet/software company, not a trans shop <grin>).
The GM HMTG (Hydramatic 4L60E Technicians Guide) has the correct table and in the [D] position the overrrun clutch is NOT applied in 1st and 2nd gear, only in 3rd gear.
And, Sonnax makes a 2-3 shift valve which adds overrun to 1st and 2nd gear in [D].
http://www.sonnax.com/system/announcement/77754-41.pdf
The table Sonnax shows on that page is the correct one.
In other words, if you want the "common" table that WRT posted, you have to install the Sonnax valve.
I will update this thread later today when I have the HMTG manual in front of me.
(Believe it or not, I run an Internet/software company, not a trans shop <grin>).
Teching In
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
From: Nevada, Texas
I have seen that chart in e.g. the ATSG manual, and I think it is wrong.
The GM HMTG (Hydramatic 4L60E Technicians Guide) has the correct table and in the [D] position the overrrun clutch is NOT applied in 1st and 2nd gear, only in 3rd gear.
And, Sonnax makes a 2-3 shift valve which adds overrun to 1st and 2nd gear in [D].
http://www.sonnax.com/system/announcement/77754-41.pdf
The table Sonnax shows on that page is the correct one.
In other words, if you want the "common" table that WRT posted, you have to install the Sonnax valve.
I will update this thread later today when I have the HMTG manual in front of me.
(Believe it or not, I run an Internet/software company, not a trans shop <grin>).
The GM HMTG (Hydramatic 4L60E Technicians Guide) has the correct table and in the [D] position the overrrun clutch is NOT applied in 1st and 2nd gear, only in 3rd gear.
And, Sonnax makes a 2-3 shift valve which adds overrun to 1st and 2nd gear in [D].
http://www.sonnax.com/system/announcement/77754-41.pdf
The table Sonnax shows on that page is the correct one.
In other words, if you want the "common" table that WRT posted, you have to install the Sonnax valve.
I will update this thread later today when I have the HMTG manual in front of me.
(Believe it or not, I run an Internet/software company, not a trans shop <grin>).
Now I am sure they have always been applied in the 700r4 unit in 3rd, 2nd, and 1st. There may have very well been a shift strategy change for the 4L60E but all the charts except for the one on page 72 of the HMTG manual has always shown them to be applied. That said there is a reason why sonnax developed this valve I will have to talk with Greg or Robert at sonnax next week and get their opinion on this.
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Joined: Aug 2010
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From: Ann Arbor, MI
I never new about that part from sonnax but I am sure its out there. If you read thru the power flow in the HMTG that gm puts out starting on page 66B you will see that it says on the individual reference charts the over run clutches are applied in manual 3rd, 2nd, and 1st. But then in the overall range chart it does not show them as being applied. I can't find an explanation for this either.
Now I am sure they have always been applied in the 700r4 unit in 3rd, 2nd, and 1st. There may have very well been a shift strategy change for the 4L60E but all the charts except for the one on page 72 of the HMTG manual has always shown them to be applied. That said there is a reason why sonnax developed this valve I will have to talk with Greg or Robert at sonnax next week and get their opinion on this.
Now I am sure they have always been applied in the 700r4 unit in 3rd, 2nd, and 1st. There may have very well been a shift strategy change for the 4L60E but all the charts except for the one on page 72 of the HMTG manual has always shown them to be applied. That said there is a reason why sonnax developed this valve I will have to talk with Greg or Robert at sonnax next week and get their opinion on this.
If you have access to an expert knowledge at Sonnax that would be great to share here.
I don't feel like testing this myself (I recently ruined one valve body with my experiments). Also my current trans has the Sonnax valve installed.
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 7,323
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From: Ann Arbor, MI
Thank you for the confirmation Jake that this "common" chart is incorrect.
I installed the Sonnax valve because I want the overrun clutch applied the entire drag strip run to reduce the load on the forward sprag.
The correct chart has the Overrun Clutch "Off" in D for 1st and 2nd gear. This is correctly documented on page 11 of the GM HMTG manual:
Without the Sonnax valve, it is debatable whether D or OD is better for a drag strip run, although the concern about having to apply both the Overrun and 3/4 clutch during the shift to 3rd in D seems valid.
With the Sonnax valve, it it clear (to me anyway) you want to run in D and not OD.
I installed the Sonnax valve because I want the overrun clutch applied the entire drag strip run to reduce the load on the forward sprag.
The correct chart has the Overrun Clutch "Off" in D for 1st and 2nd gear. This is correctly documented on page 11 of the GM HMTG manual:
Without the Sonnax valve, it is debatable whether D or OD is better for a drag strip run, although the concern about having to apply both the Overrun and 3/4 clutch during the shift to 3rd in D seems valid.
With the Sonnax valve, it it clear (to me anyway) you want to run in D and not OD.
Last edited by mrvedit; Jun 1, 2012 at 08:52 PM.
Without the Sonnax valve, it is debatable whether D or OD is better for a drag strip run, although the concern about having to apply both the Overrun and 3/4 clutch during the shift to 3rd in D seems valid.
With the Sonnax valve, it it clear (to me anyway) you want to run in D and not OD.
I've been doing some in depth 4L60E hydraulics R&D lately. I may have a REAL solution to help the 3-4 clutches as far as the 2-3 shift but it's all concept form at the moment.
I do have a 4L60E transbrake functioning though
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 7,323
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From: Ann Arbor, MI
Its about $30:
http://www.transmissionpartsusa.com/...-007775441.htm
You have to remove the valve body and mod it by drilling a hole between two passages; so there is no going back.
WRT mentioned that the 700R4 definitely had the overrun clutches engages in D3 for all gears. I suspect that GM changed this in the 4L60e to "soften" the automatic downshifts in D3 as the car was slowing. I think we would all prefer the tighter feel of having the overrun clutches engaged in D3, plus it puts less strain on the forward sprag.
http://www.transmissionpartsusa.com/...-007775441.htm
You have to remove the valve body and mod it by drilling a hole between two passages; so there is no going back.
WRT mentioned that the 700R4 definitely had the overrun clutches engages in D3 for all gears. I suspect that GM changed this in the 4L60e to "soften" the automatic downshifts in D3 as the car was slowing. I think we would all prefer the tighter feel of having the overrun clutches engaged in D3, plus it puts less strain on the forward sprag.