60 issue or converter
TECH Enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 518
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From: North Jersey
This was my UNPROFESSIONAL assessment NOT the OP.
I would think that stock clutches, sprag and whatever else was used would not be in a high $ /level bld.
In RPM's behalf, he did say there was some good hard parts in there too.
Would I be wrong in assuming a trans at this level/cost would use stock stuff?
Unless it is capable of using it.
I would think that stock clutches, sprag and whatever else was used would not be in a high $ /level bld.
In RPM's behalf, he did say there was some good hard parts in there too.
Would I be wrong in assuming a trans at this level/cost would use stock stuff?
Unless it is capable of using it.
TECH Resident
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 969
Likes: 119
It looks like Raybestos and Borg Warner clutches, and that is fine. I cannot see what is used for the 3-4 clutches. I would assume that they are BW Hi-Energys from what I know of RPM. The double stacked accumulator could be the reason here that the overrun hub broke. Too firm of a 1-2 shift at all throttle openings. The Borg Warner 29 element sprag with the nylon cage is the strongest on the market, and is what I use in all of my 700R4 and 4L60E Pro Street Elites, along with the 4L60E overrun hub when used in a 700R4. If you have more pictures that would be of help. How many 3-4 clutches and what type? What kind of valve body kit is being used here? What 2nd apply servo are you using here? 4th servo? etc. To prevent this from happening again the 2nd accumulator needs to be setup correctly. Does this valve body have the HD 2-3 shift valve from Sonnax? See what you can find out? What were the 1-2 shifts like at different throttle openings? What stall and diameter torque converter are you using here?
Last edited by PBA; Jul 16, 2017 at 02:13 AM.
Thread Starter
On The Tree
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 183
Likes: 7
It looks like Raybestos and Borg Warner clutches, and that is fine. I cannot see what is used for the 3-4 clutches. I would assume that they are BW Hi-Energys from what I know of RPM. The double stacked accumulator could be the reason here that the overrun hub broke. Too firm of a 1-2 shift at all throttle openings. The Borg Warner 29 element sprag with the nylon cage is the strongest on the market, and is what I use in all of my 700R4 and 4L60E Pro Street Elites, along with the 4L60E overrun hub when used in a 700R4. If you have more pictures that would be of help. How many 3-4 clutches and what type? What kind of valve body kit is being used here? What 2nd apply servo are you using here? 4th servo? etc. To prevent this from happening again the 2nd accumulator needs to be setup correctly. Does this valve body have the HD 2-3 shift valve from Sonnax? See what you can find out? What were the 1-2 shifts like at different throttle openings? What stall and diameter torque converter are you using here?
I'd like to be able to answer these questions. I'm not intimately familiar with transmissions.
I know what they're website says and what Sid told me and he did mention the double-stacked accumulator was a no-no.
From their website:
*Media blast transmission case
*RPM Level V 3-4 clutch pack
*RPM reinforced sunshell with collar and bearing
*Heavy Duty double caged 29 element sprag
*4L65E low roller clutch
*Billet 4th gear servo
*Transgo HD-2 shift kit
*Corvette Servo
*Wide 2-4 band
*Updated aluminum accumulator piston
*Bushing kit
*New shift solenoids
*New GM valve body spacer plate
*Seal & gasket kit
*GM Filter
*RPM Spec clutch and band clearances
*RPM sleeved input drum
*Billet over-run piston
*GM 5 pinion planetary gearsets - front and rear
*NEW Extra WIDE Heavy Duty double caged 29 element sprag
*300m Billet output shaft
*4L65/70E low roller clutch
*Billet 2nd gear servo
*300M Billet Input shaft
*Billet Pump Rotor
*Billet Forward Piston
*2-3 HD Apply Valve
*Deep Aluminum pan
*Micropolished Internal Parts
That's what's listed. A ton of detail, I know but it's all I have.
As for the 1-2 shift, it was firm as ****. I mean firm. Way more firmer than anything I have ever driven before.
The converter was a FTI SRLS 9.5, 3000 stall. They are cutting/cleaning/restalling to a 3800 hard-hit at my request. It was a tight converter as well.
I never locked the converter until 4th @ around 55 or so. It was always non-lockup in 1-3 but it was still tight.
I do know, if I break it again, I'm cutting my losses and having Sid build me an 80e. I know, a lot of other stuff has to change but I have a driveshaft shop close by and I know where I can get a xmember quickly.
Thread Starter
On The Tree
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 183
Likes: 7
I agree, RPM should have offered this 1st.
I'm not bashing, but when the trans was disassembled , and inferior parts exposed, I would have tried all means possible to make it right with you.
I'm curious, do they give detailed instructions how this level 7 trans is to be used and driven in the crate?
I'm not bashing, but when the trans was disassembled , and inferior parts exposed, I would have tried all means possible to make it right with you.
I'm curious, do they give detailed instructions how this level 7 trans is to be used and driven in the crate?
Moderator
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 7,322
Likes: 528
From: Ann Arbor, MI
While I know that 4->2 downshifts are hard on the trans, IMHO a top-level 4L60E should be able to handle any kind of shifts that the PCM commands.
I love 4->2 downshifts and some days do dozens of them, multiplied by many days per year. Granted, I plan on and enjoy rebuilding the trans every year or two, and therefore don't worry about abusing it.
I have taken PBA's advice to not make the 1->2 shift (or other shifts) so firm that they break hard parts; it frankly is more pleasant to drive too.
Any chance someone fiddled with the trans after it left RPM? RPM does have an excellent reputation for building durable transmissions with a minuscule number of complaints.
I love 4->2 downshifts and some days do dozens of them, multiplied by many days per year. Granted, I plan on and enjoy rebuilding the trans every year or two, and therefore don't worry about abusing it.
I have taken PBA's advice to not make the 1->2 shift (or other shifts) so firm that they break hard parts; it frankly is more pleasant to drive too.
Any chance someone fiddled with the trans after it left RPM? RPM does have an excellent reputation for building durable transmissions with a minuscule number of complaints.
Thread Starter
On The Tree
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 183
Likes: 7
Teching In
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
From: New Jersey
Trans That stinks. (not the HP!)
A stock 80E with a few tweaks held my buddy's 460ci/625 crank HP Buick in his 71GS.
Mid 11's @ 117.
Drove it there, race'd on his DR's then drove home.
That's what sold me on the 80.
I feel for you brother!
A feel a "level 7" build should have held at your level!
Now that you know what was inside of it, another phone call may be in order for compensation.
This is my beef with not going local with the build.
If my 80 pukes, I'll tow it rt to the guy that built it.
The good thing is, he built my t350 that I beat for 16yrs and 2 converters.
It's now in my sons malibu!
Same stock rebuild with a shift kit from back then.
A stock 80E with a few tweaks held my buddy's 460ci/625 crank HP Buick in his 71GS.
Mid 11's @ 117.
Drove it there, race'd on his DR's then drove home.
That's what sold me on the 80.
I feel for you brother!
A feel a "level 7" build should have held at your level!
Now that you know what was inside of it, another phone call may be in order for compensation.
This is my beef with not going local with the build.
If my 80 pukes, I'll tow it rt to the guy that built it.
The good thing is, he built my t350 that I beat for 16yrs and 2 converters.
It's now in my sons malibu!
Same stock rebuild with a shift kit from back then.
I am going to do my best to explain this issue. These discussions always go south quickly but I will try to do my best.
madmann26 contacted me about his issue, he also contacted other builders before he ever made a call to me. They contacted me with what they discussed and all of them said the same thing after talking to him. Which was sprag failure. This is the only diagnosis I could make simply with the information he provided me over the phone. madmann26 also mentioned a recent differential breakage further solidified the potential of sprag failure.
When we spoke on the phone he asked me what it would cost to fix worst case. I told him $650.00 plus shipping. I even told him we could expedite it since it was his daily driver. Last I knew he was going to pull the transmission out and send it back to us. But he didn’t even give us the chance to look at the trans or attempt to help him out. He made the decision to go to another builder and bypass us and any possibility of us being able to help him out. And as with any transmission builder (engine builder ect) no matter what is done inside a transmission, when it is taken apart it is always going to be wrong in the other builders opinion. Every builder has their way of doing things.
I am familiar with Sid Neal and he builds a lot of bracket race powerglide transmissions. But I have never seen anyone with a 4L60e built buy him.
His comments about our choices in sprag and clutches lead me to believe he is uneducated in 4L60e builds. Our choice in parts are fairly standard in all the performance 4L60e builds out there (As PBA stated earlier). The double stacked accumulation is standard practice and part of the Trans-go HD2 shift kit. Pictures attached.
I hate dealing with this stuff because the outcome is never positive…
madmann26 contacted me about his issue, he also contacted other builders before he ever made a call to me. They contacted me with what they discussed and all of them said the same thing after talking to him. Which was sprag failure. This is the only diagnosis I could make simply with the information he provided me over the phone. madmann26 also mentioned a recent differential breakage further solidified the potential of sprag failure.
When we spoke on the phone he asked me what it would cost to fix worst case. I told him $650.00 plus shipping. I even told him we could expedite it since it was his daily driver. Last I knew he was going to pull the transmission out and send it back to us. But he didn’t even give us the chance to look at the trans or attempt to help him out. He made the decision to go to another builder and bypass us and any possibility of us being able to help him out. And as with any transmission builder (engine builder ect) no matter what is done inside a transmission, when it is taken apart it is always going to be wrong in the other builders opinion. Every builder has their way of doing things.
I am familiar with Sid Neal and he builds a lot of bracket race powerglide transmissions. But I have never seen anyone with a 4L60e built buy him.
His comments about our choices in sprag and clutches lead me to believe he is uneducated in 4L60e builds. Our choice in parts are fairly standard in all the performance 4L60e builds out there (As PBA stated earlier). The double stacked accumulation is standard practice and part of the Trans-go HD2 shift kit. Pictures attached.
I hate dealing with this stuff because the outcome is never positive…
Thread Starter
On The Tree
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 183
Likes: 7
So,
I'll be as tactful as I can.
1. No hard money amount was ever discussed. The extent of the amount to have it fixed was "a few hundred dollars". I can provide the email chain, if your memory needs refreshing.
2. I am a consumer that is unhappy about a failure in just 17,000 miles.
3. I did contact the vendor and RPM first.
4. I made the decision to go with someone local because of downtime concerns and that there was no warranty.
5. Calling another vendor "uneducated" is classless.
6. At the end of the day, I am out about $900 (including trans repairs and converter cleaning), that at this point, I don't think I will ever see again.
7. The vendor did offer to pay for the repairs but it's been a week and I haven't heard anything.
8. 17 months ago, I wrote a check to the vendor for about $16,000 for this build.
9. When I made the decision to have another vendor repair, I emailed RPM and the vendor both and that was not challenged.
10. You're right about 1 thing, these things never turn out good.
I'll be as tactful as I can.
1. No hard money amount was ever discussed. The extent of the amount to have it fixed was "a few hundred dollars". I can provide the email chain, if your memory needs refreshing.
2. I am a consumer that is unhappy about a failure in just 17,000 miles.
3. I did contact the vendor and RPM first.
4. I made the decision to go with someone local because of downtime concerns and that there was no warranty.
5. Calling another vendor "uneducated" is classless.
6. At the end of the day, I am out about $900 (including trans repairs and converter cleaning), that at this point, I don't think I will ever see again.
7. The vendor did offer to pay for the repairs but it's been a week and I haven't heard anything.
8. 17 months ago, I wrote a check to the vendor for about $16,000 for this build.
9. When I made the decision to have another vendor repair, I emailed RPM and the vendor both and that was not challenged.
10. You're right about 1 thing, these things never turn out good.
Moderator
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 7,322
Likes: 528
From: Ann Arbor, MI
The 1-2 accumulator pictures posted by Jeremy show exactly what I run - the Transgo HD2 kit with a single washer. It is exactly what I have recommended here many times and what many others run (PBA has recommended running it without any washer to further soften the shift.)
I certainly do not find it "it was firm as f..ck. I mean firm"; mine does not even chirp the times under moderate throtttle which is what I want. I therefore wonder if the tune firmed the shifts further. While the tune can be firmed for a stock trans, the tune should be stock for a performance trans.
The forward sprag is simply a weak spot of these transmissions, even when the best sprag was used, and it was. The Sonnax HD 2-3 shift valve is a good option because it reduces the load on the sprag; however some performance builders don't make it standard because it does cause harsh downshifts (in D3) and requires non-reversible mods to the valve body.
Having read every thread here for the past 5 years I know that RPM is one of a handful of ultra-premium and ultra-reliable 4L60E builders. Unfortunately the 4L60E has some inherent weaknesses which no builder can overcome.
Besides heat and excessive power, the other factor which can cause 4L60E failure is vehicle weight. Perhaps your vendor should not have picked a 4L60E, even the best 4L60E, for performance use in a heavy truck. As you have concluded, a 4L80E is the proper choice for a heavy truck.
I certainly do not find it "it was firm as f..ck. I mean firm"; mine does not even chirp the times under moderate throtttle which is what I want. I therefore wonder if the tune firmed the shifts further. While the tune can be firmed for a stock trans, the tune should be stock for a performance trans.
The forward sprag is simply a weak spot of these transmissions, even when the best sprag was used, and it was. The Sonnax HD 2-3 shift valve is a good option because it reduces the load on the sprag; however some performance builders don't make it standard because it does cause harsh downshifts (in D3) and requires non-reversible mods to the valve body.
Having read every thread here for the past 5 years I know that RPM is one of a handful of ultra-premium and ultra-reliable 4L60E builders. Unfortunately the 4L60E has some inherent weaknesses which no builder can overcome.
Besides heat and excessive power, the other factor which can cause 4L60E failure is vehicle weight. Perhaps your vendor should not have picked a 4L60E, even the best 4L60E, for performance use in a heavy truck. As you have concluded, a 4L80E is the proper choice for a heavy truck.