Im running the 6010 box with the CURVE 4 pill and my truck runs great. Im still learning about tuning the map sensor. My question is do the pills control the map sensor or are the pills just a straight timing curve. I have the sensor plumbed in, I just aint connected the plug. May be a dumb question but ive asked plenty of those in my life. Thanks.

 

Ive read that if you don't zero the map out, its still in there sometimes, even with the pills. Be sure and get it hooked up and make sure its on zero if you don't want it.

This helped me
https://ls1tech.com/forums/carburete...dtigger-p.html

 

Thanks. When I finally grasp the MAP timing im probably gonna kick myself for over thinking it. Im not sure that I dont want the map in the tune now. I guess im just gonna hook it up with the pill and see what happens. It may help with cleaning up the exhaust a little at idle. Maybe

 

It helped clean up mine, it was hard to grasp till that post was made, then I understood it better

 

The MSD manual lists the MAP curve for each of the numbered pills. IIRC they don't change much from pill to pill.

 

It may sound strange, but the map at start up is the amount of timing added all the way through, IF you don't have the map hooked up for the box to read. In other words , if the map value is 20* at start up and you are running the #4 pill, you add 20* to the #4 timing curve and that is the true advance the engine is running all the way through the RPM range. Be careful, because that can amount to a ton of timing and can get you into spark knock fairly easily. If you have a lap top , go in and zero out the map and work on base timing until you are happy with your timing curve, then add map with the sensor installed till you are happy with the part throttle response and drivability .

 

http://www.jegs.com/InstallationInst...1/121-6010.pdf
Page 6 shows what pill does what.
A lot of guys don't like the pills saying that it's too much timing. MAP timing added even if NOT hooked up it adds it in.
At the top of the page is a good read on timing curves and MAP curves. I think SpeedTiger has the best write-up on MAP timing, and will post that link in a minute.

Here....https://ls1tech.com/forums/carburete...dtigger-p.html

 

If this is truly the case, MSD has programmed the pill's curve in reverse. To the box (or any ECM) a disconnected MAP will look like WOT at all times, and you certainly wouldn't want any additional timing at WOT...

 

This is what throws me for a loop. This is from Speedtiggers write up

CRUISE TIMING
"Above 6.0(at higher vacuum levels) the MAP timing ramps up to 19 degrees bringing the total timing to as high as 46 degrees. These higher cruise timings were very typical on many cars I have worked on over the years. This works for low load cruising because the volumetric efficiency is so low(meaning there is very little cylinder filling at low load cruising). All of this is dependent on vehicle weight, gearing etc".

This 46 and 58 degrees of timing is whats messing with me.

 

The key to the map is PART THROTTLE. At WOT ,46 to 58 would buy you an opportunity to build another short block, LOL. That was why I threw that warning at you on the post above. It can be dangerous to run with the pills not knowing that the added 20* of map will go through the whole curve if it isn't zeroed out with a lap top. Look at the chips and add 20* across the board( if you don't tune it out ) to see how much timing you are actually running. On mine I thought I was running very mild timing with the #6 chip, until I hooked it up to the laptop and saw the extra 20* that was built in. I was spark knocking like crazy and couldn't figure out why, with such low timing. Come to find out I had as much as 48* !!
I am tuned with the lap top now, but haven't hooked up the map yet. I will once I get the base timing exactly where I want it. Sense the map adds to the base timing ,I cant see building a map curve until the base is where it is going to stay. Make sense?

 

I don't know that they wired it backwards, it is just tricky to understand what the box is reading. With no map sensor the box gets a signal of 0 volts as an input. This corresponds to 0 PSI pressure, in other words maximum vacuum. Thus with no MAP sensor connected it always adds whatever timing number you have entered for 0 PSI. So pills 1-5 will add 6° while pill #6 adds 4°.

Just remember room pressure is typically around 15 psi. If the manifold pressure is less than that, then it is under vacuum. the lower the absolute pressure, the higher the vacuum.

So short answer is if you DON'T have a working MAP sensor then ZERO OUT THE MAP TABLE AND DON'T USE THE PILLS.

 

Ive never looked at the 6010 box, but my 6012 added 20* as read on the gauge function when the laptop was plugged in! That is a lot of timing added for the end user not to know about while using the pills.

 

Hmmm, a design FAIL. At work (refinery), all of our instrumentation was designed to fail with the least damaging results. MSD should have designed this to be 0° advance at 0 PSIG (14.7 PSIA) and have programmed advance values at minimum pressures (i.e. - vacuum) down to 0 PSIA. There's a good chance someone will kill and engine if their MAP hose were to come undone...

 

So in theory the map is just for better cruise, cleaner idle and part throttle drivability. Dont really understand the vacuum numbers, but the less vacuum the motor makes the more timing its gonna pull out. Right? If im reading the graph right for the #4 pill it has 6 degrees added at 0 rpm, 1000 rpm, 2000 rpm. That would be a total of 21 degrees at 0 rpm, 34 at 1000 rpm and 35 @ 2000 rpm. As soon as the throttle is stomped and you start loosing vacuum its like the map aint there and its working off the the preset timing curve or whatever the pills have programmed. Correct? I think im beginning to grasp it if this is close to being right. I just didnt realize that any motor could handle that kind of timing numbers at low RPM's.

 

With the throttle blades closed, the engine is a air pump pulling air in causing the opposite of pressure, that is vacuum. The more the throttle opens, manifold pressure drops. At wide open, manifold pressure is zero or as close to it as possible, because it can freely move air in. The MAP is a measure of vacuum under idle and part throttle cruise.

I have not used the MAP features yet, so I do not have much advise at this time. My beater truck, the 94 gmc with the 09 4.8 is about to get a MAP and the AC installed since it is to daily driver duty so the wife can use the crew cab.

 

I was going to say that MSD has no control over how MAP sensors are made. It's not their fault they are made to read 0 volts at 0 PSI. But your idea is a good one. No one will ever hit 0 PSI (total suckage), so why not put in 0° at 0 PSI then some real value at say 1 PSI. I mean I always thought it was stupid the thing couldn't figure out a MAP sensor isn't installed. How hard would it be to check for zero volts and time out after a few seconds of running? Or at least force the user to go out of his way to enable it.

Oh, and newschool72 is right. According to the instructions the 6012 box adds 20° of advance.

 

Here is the deal: Timing of the spark has one purpose, to get the maximum efficiency and full burn of the air fuel charge. So, when you advance or retard the timing you are merely trying to light the fire at the precise moment that will allow the air and fuel to burn completely and reach peak cylinder pressure at the optimal time to put the maximum force for the longest duration into the piston. This is why changing the timing influences the power output of the engine.

More timing is not necessarily good and less timing is not necessarily bad. Optimal timing is best.

So, that brings you to the question of why more timing is a good choice under high vacuum low load conditions and why less timing is needed under low vacuum high load conditions.

An engine is nothing more than an air pump. It is a pump of a specific size. So, the engine is always trying to pump its size in cubic inches of air every two revolutions. So, when you put a throttle body or carburetor on top, it is restricting the pump. This restriction causes vacuum. This restriction also reduces the efficiency of the pump. Therefor, the cylinder are not able to fill to capacity with air and fuel.

Since the cylinder has less air and fuel when the throttle is mostly closed, there is less air and fuel to squeeze on the compression stroke. Because there is less air and fuel to squeeze, said charge is under less pressure, when the air fuel mixture is under less pressure it will burn slower and less efficiently. In order to increase the pressure and get a complete burn of the lesser charge, you have to light the fire sooner (advance the timing). When you time this just right, the efficiency of the combustion increases, This improves fuel economy, reduces emmisions and improves throttle response.

As you open the throttle the restriction of the pump (the engine) decreases. This reduces vacuum and increases volumetric efficiency (the ability of the engine or "air pump" to fill its cylinders completely). Now that the cylinders are more full, the air fuel mixture is put under more pressure on the compression stroke. Air fuel mixture under more pressure burns faster and more efficiently so it requires less timing to get a complete burn and reach peak pressure at the ideal time to impart the most force on the piston.

So, you end up with this relationship:
The more the throttle is close, the more restriction, the more vacuum, the lower the volumetric efficiency the more timing is needed.
The more the throttle is open, the less restriction, the less vacuum, the higher the volumetric efficiency, the less timing is needed.

This is why guys with turbos and blowers reduce their timing. Because the volumetric efficiency is higher. Therefore the air fuel mixture is under more pressure. So, it burns faster and more efficiently and needs less timing to get a complete burn and impart the most force into the piston.

One warning: Too much timing under a heavy load can cause the pressure in the cylinder to rise too fast. When this happens the air fuel mixture can create so much pressure that it explodes instead of a controlled burn. This is what people refer to as: "spark knock", "pre-ignition", "rattle", "detonation" etc. This is the fastest way to destroy an engine by breaking the pistons, rings, head gaskets or in severe cases rupture a cylinder. This is why you never go too far with the timing under a heavy load.

That is as complete of an explanation as I can manage off hand. I hope that helps.

 

This is awesome info. Zones needs to put this with your other sticky. This is probably as laymen terms as you can get. I can already here my motor spark knocking putting all this new found knowledge to work. LOL

 

Also, think of it like this....

Spark before TDC to get the fire going so at TDC the full combustion happens to force the piston down. In a perfect world.
Now IF the spark was to happen a little late and full combustion happened as the piston was already starting down, you loose some force (HP/TQ).
Now IF the spark was too early causing full combustion as the piston was still on the way up... somethings got to give (piston,rod,crank)

Another way to think about it....take 2 hammers and hold one out, take the other one and hit it. It "bounces away" (the bounce is combustion lets say) so one makes the other move in the opposite way. Great.

Now too much timing... Pre-ignition/Detonation/Spark knock... take the 2 hammers and hit them together....watch how they bounce apart... not what you want to happen inside a motor.