What's the value of a 69 LS1 / T56 Camaro
06-10-2004, 07:01 PM
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What's the value of a 69 LS1 / T56 Camaro I'm just starting this conversion project and I want to get some verification on what it will be worth so I can have it insured properly.
I'm picking up the donor vehicle tomorrow and have the bullet. I plan on building the LS1 to about 450 hp mated to a 6 speed. The resto will be frame off with mostly new parts...sheet metal, lights, emblems, seats, etc.
I would like to do some digital gauges and possibly a heads up display. The suspension will be setup for road course track days with either C5 Corvette brakes or Wilwoods.
The paint will be excellent but no $8k show car finish.
What are your thoughts?
I'm picking up the donor vehicle tomorrow and have the bullet. I plan on building the LS1 to about 450 hp mated to a 6 speed. The resto will be frame off with mostly new parts...sheet metal, lights, emblems, seats, etc.
I would like to do some digital gauges and possibly a heads up display. The suspension will be setup for road course track days with either C5 Corvette brakes or Wilwoods.
The paint will be excellent but no $8k show car finish.
What are your thoughts?
06-11-2004, 03:01 PM
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Probably not much more than a normal well-restored '69 Camaro with a NOM. I'd say to check Hemmings or AutoTrader to get an idea of what they're going for.
BTW, you can't do a "frame-off" resto on a unibody car. There's no frame to take the body off of...
BTW, you can't do a "frame-off" resto on a unibody car. There's no frame to take the body off of...
06-13-2004, 11:08 AM
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O.K. what I meant wast a front clip frame off / rotisserie restoration.
As far as the value of a normal restored Camaro... a 69 SS 350 will bring about $20k, a Z28 between $40-50, a true big block 396 X22 0r X 66 car about $30-35, a Yenko 427 over $100k.
I've seen one LT1 conversion on ebay not meet reserve @ over $80k.
Where would a well done LS1/T56 conversion with updated suspension,interior, electronics, etc. fall?
As far as the value of a normal restored Camaro... a 69 SS 350 will bring about $20k, a Z28 between $40-50, a true big block 396 X22 0r X 66 car about $30-35, a Yenko 427 over $100k.
I've seen one LT1 conversion on ebay not meet reserve @ over $80k.
Where would a well done LS1/T56 conversion with updated suspension,interior, electronics, etc. fall?
06-13-2004, 11:09 PM
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dont worry about the price, just say whatever you would pay for it. take into account how much time and money you have into this thing and go from there. but i would say right between a regular camaro and a z28. its not original so it wont be worth no where near as much!
06-13-2004, 11:28 PM
#6
I disagree, a fully restored '69 with all brand new (modern) components and engine will be worth more than a stock restored SS-350
Just adding up all the values of the modern parts could surpass the value of a restored SS-350, depending on the components you go with.
For example, I bought my semi-restored '69 SS-350 for $16500, and am addding about $20,000 in new parts to the car. Thats not including labor since I'm doing everything myself. It would cost someone around $50K to pay a shop to build a similar car for them. Its a LOT of labor.
Tony
Just adding up all the values of the modern parts could surpass the value of a restored SS-350, depending on the components you go with.
For example, I bought my semi-restored '69 SS-350 for $16500, and am addding about $20,000 in new parts to the car. Thats not including labor since I'm doing everything myself. It would cost someone around $50K to pay a shop to build a similar car for them. Its a LOT of labor.
Tony
06-14-2004, 11:49 AM
#7
It also depends on the level the car is built to.. custom suspension? Rock Valley stainless gas tank or modified stocker?.. Many many variables..
But like Tony said.. same to same a regular SBC Camaro would be worth less than the same car with an LS1 in it..
Then again if you take an all numbers matching Z28 and stuff an LS1 in it then it will most likely be worth less..
But like Tony said.. same to same a regular SBC Camaro would be worth less than the same car with an LS1 in it..
Then again if you take an all numbers matching Z28 and stuff an LS1 in it then it will most likely be worth less..
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06-14-2004, 12:56 PM
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A 69 Camaro with an LS1 isn't worth a whole lot. The value would be about on-par to an equivalent condition car with a 'less desirable' engine. The LS1 would obviously be worth a little more than say a vanilla carbed 350, but maybe just by a couple grand.
The only reason why you see some Z28s and SS Camaros selling for big $$$ is because they are documented cars with #'s matching motors. In other words, originality is they key to their high value. Collectors with deep pockets are the cause of those 'inflated' prices. Those aren't being purchased by the average Joe to drive on cruise night. On the flipside, collectors would have nothing to do with an LS1 69 Camaro so without that demand the value will suffer. Average Joe is the guy that would buy such a Camaro, and he's not made of money.
You can't look at your car and what it cost you to customize, add in labor costs and figure that's the value. It just doesn't work that way.
Think about it like this: Take a $500 beater early-90s Ford Escort and spend $2,000 for a nice paint job. Will that make the value $2,500 or more? No. It'll look pretty nice and I'm sure it would be worth more than the original $500 and be easier to sell... but the paint job isn't going to make that big a difference.
Hot Rods are horrible investments. Unless your name is Boyd Coddington you're going lose money in the deal. Check out Hemmings and you'll see page after page of people who put 20K into a car restoring and customizing it and are hoping to get 10k in return. Hot Rodding is a labor of love.
So what would the value be? Whatever you have invested in the car dollar wise, figure it's worth less than that unless you got some killer deals on parts. For the typical restore job, I'd say the value range is anywhere from half to 80% of what was spent. Sad but true.
The only reason why you see some Z28s and SS Camaros selling for big $$$ is because they are documented cars with #'s matching motors. In other words, originality is they key to their high value. Collectors with deep pockets are the cause of those 'inflated' prices. Those aren't being purchased by the average Joe to drive on cruise night. On the flipside, collectors would have nothing to do with an LS1 69 Camaro so without that demand the value will suffer. Average Joe is the guy that would buy such a Camaro, and he's not made of money.
You can't look at your car and what it cost you to customize, add in labor costs and figure that's the value. It just doesn't work that way.
Think about it like this: Take a $500 beater early-90s Ford Escort and spend $2,000 for a nice paint job. Will that make the value $2,500 or more? No. It'll look pretty nice and I'm sure it would be worth more than the original $500 and be easier to sell... but the paint job isn't going to make that big a difference.
Hot Rods are horrible investments. Unless your name is Boyd Coddington you're going lose money in the deal. Check out Hemmings and you'll see page after page of people who put 20K into a car restoring and customizing it and are hoping to get 10k in return. Hot Rodding is a labor of love.
So what would the value be? Whatever you have invested in the car dollar wise, figure it's worth less than that unless you got some killer deals on parts. For the typical restore job, I'd say the value range is anywhere from half to 80% of what was spent. Sad but true.
06-14-2004, 04:17 PM
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doublejack , you are so, so wrong . i have an offer on my car now and i would be making 12k on it over and above what i paid for it and with the conversion .
i know everyone has different opinions on this subject but i am just stating my facts with mine . if you are building a HIGH quality car it will be worth alot to that someone that wants it . me personally i would not even want a ill handling , slow , stock car documented that i can't drive anywhere .
and the comparison about the escort is not even fair . who the hell wants that car to begin with ???? try comparing something that some likes and has a desire to own. i remember in jan on barret jackson that damn ugly car that brought over 400k (cant remember the name) i guess it was worth more than 400k then stock huh??
like i said , we all have different opinions
to the person that started this thread , are you building it to make some money and have fun or building it to keep ? if its for keeps you will probably ake money on it if you dont want to sell it , but the minute you think you are doing this to make some jack , the plan might backfire !!!
i know everyone has different opinions on this subject but i am just stating my facts with mine . if you are building a HIGH quality car it will be worth alot to that someone that wants it . me personally i would not even want a ill handling , slow , stock car documented that i can't drive anywhere .
and the comparison about the escort is not even fair . who the hell wants that car to begin with ???? try comparing something that some likes and has a desire to own. i remember in jan on barret jackson that damn ugly car that brought over 400k (cant remember the name) i guess it was worth more than 400k then stock huh??
like i said , we all have different opinions
to the person that started this thread , are you building it to make some money and have fun or building it to keep ? if its for keeps you will probably ake money on it if you dont want to sell it , but the minute you think you are doing this to make some jack , the plan might backfire !!!
06-15-2004, 09:47 AM
#10
doublejack, some of your points are correct, but you can't compare a Ford Escort with a '69 camaro. The '69 Camaro is always going to be in high demand, even the rusted out basket-case '69s will sell quickly.
A numbers matching fully restored SS-350 in nearly perfect condition will only get you around $30-35K tops. They made a TON of them. I guarantee a well build pro-touring '69 Camaro with all new parts, modern interior, modern powertrain/drivetrain/suspension will bring in more than $35K. There are buyers out there looking for these modern/classic cars, and will pay top dollar for clean examples.
Check out what the clean pro-touring '69s are selling for on ebay if you need proof.
Tony
A numbers matching fully restored SS-350 in nearly perfect condition will only get you around $30-35K tops. They made a TON of them. I guarantee a well build pro-touring '69 Camaro with all new parts, modern interior, modern powertrain/drivetrain/suspension will bring in more than $35K. There are buyers out there looking for these modern/classic cars, and will pay top dollar for clean examples.
Check out what the clean pro-touring '69s are selling for on ebay if you need proof.
Tony
06-15-2004, 02:46 PM
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An Escort was chosen at random for illustrative purposes. Obviously Escorts and vintage Camaros are different in many regards, but the laws of economics apply to both similarly because they are ultimately both cars. As such they are completely comparable. I could have used a clapped out early 90s Firebird, or a brand new Hummer, or anything really as an example. It doesn't matter, that's the point.
Unless we are talking about a very rare and/or original car then any money sunk into it is neither guaranteed nor even likely to be returned in a sale. This is just the way it is.
GM made a ton of 1st gen Camaros. I don't think it was a million, but it was certainly hundreds of thousands. As classic muscle cars they all have some inherent desirability, but because of the sheer number produced only the ones collectors covet will fetch an outrageous premium. Yes, rusted out basket case 69s do sell quickly... but they go dirt cheap. I looked at a 68 manual 6 cylinder about 8 months ago. The asking price was $1750, and it wasn't in that bad of shape really. It had some rough rusty spots and needed a lot of TLC but it ran and was drivable.
One high offer doesn't mean that's market value... it doesn't even mean it's a real offer. People frequently talk a big game when it comes to buying a classic car, and then they back away when asked for the cash. An owner only finds out what the value for their vehicle is when the orange "For Sale" sign is in the window. That's when it becomes apparent who is serious, and how much they'll pay. As with anything there are people who will overpay because they see something they have to own, but sellers are lucky if they can find one of 'em. There are also people who can't do anything for themselves but have money. Often times you can soak them for more than a car's truly worth too.
BTW, I checked ebay and there's a pro touring camaro for less than 25k right now. In the completed auctions the only cars over 30k are #s matching collectibles.. Someone would have to be delusional to buy a fad like a pro touring car instead of a #s matching SS-350 for the same money. The SS is worth more now, and 10 years from now it's going to be worth a hella lot more. Look at all the people who built pro stock cars in the 90s. Think most of them did well? Not! They lost their shirts. Pro touring will be no different.
Unless we are talking about a very rare and/or original car then any money sunk into it is neither guaranteed nor even likely to be returned in a sale. This is just the way it is.
GM made a ton of 1st gen Camaros. I don't think it was a million, but it was certainly hundreds of thousands. As classic muscle cars they all have some inherent desirability, but because of the sheer number produced only the ones collectors covet will fetch an outrageous premium. Yes, rusted out basket case 69s do sell quickly... but they go dirt cheap. I looked at a 68 manual 6 cylinder about 8 months ago. The asking price was $1750, and it wasn't in that bad of shape really. It had some rough rusty spots and needed a lot of TLC but it ran and was drivable.
One high offer doesn't mean that's market value... it doesn't even mean it's a real offer. People frequently talk a big game when it comes to buying a classic car, and then they back away when asked for the cash. An owner only finds out what the value for their vehicle is when the orange "For Sale" sign is in the window. That's when it becomes apparent who is serious, and how much they'll pay. As with anything there are people who will overpay because they see something they have to own, but sellers are lucky if they can find one of 'em. There are also people who can't do anything for themselves but have money. Often times you can soak them for more than a car's truly worth too.
BTW, I checked ebay and there's a pro touring camaro for less than 25k right now. In the completed auctions the only cars over 30k are #s matching collectibles.. Someone would have to be delusional to buy a fad like a pro touring car instead of a #s matching SS-350 for the same money. The SS is worth more now, and 10 years from now it's going to be worth a hella lot more. Look at all the people who built pro stock cars in the 90s. Think most of them did well? Not! They lost their shirts. Pro touring will be no different.
06-15-2004, 02:54 PM
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value just for the record here , my offer was that from another dealer , that would only resell it again .
and you missed the 69 that had bids well into the 80,000 range with a buy it now of 125,000
and 67/68 do not bring what a rusted or restored 69 will . sad but true !
also i understand about the value down the road when pro toruing dies but in my opinion it will be around alot longer than 10 years . when did pro street cars start out ? i think they are starting to die out a little. i think the gentleman that started this thread was wondering abou the near future , kinda like a project and toy , but only later to sell for big profit .
and you missed the 69 that had bids well into the 80,000 range with a buy it now of 125,000
and 67/68 do not bring what a rusted or restored 69 will . sad but true !
also i understand about the value down the road when pro toruing dies but in my opinion it will be around alot longer than 10 years . when did pro street cars start out ? i think they are starting to die out a little. i think the gentleman that started this thread was wondering abou the near future , kinda like a project and toy , but only later to sell for big profit .
06-15-2004, 04:05 PM
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The auction for the Camaro you speak of must have ended more than 90 days ago, that's as far back as I could check. Also, one 69 pro touring camaro on ebay for 80k+ does not mean that's the market for them. I guarantee that's way above the norm. Also there were possibly prank bids involved. I seem to remember seeing an LT1 or LS1 or LT4 Camaro on ebay in the 80k range. If that's the car you're talking about then there's no way that thing was worth it. Some people get a rise out of making false bids. For a better idea of value check out Hemmings.
My whole point anyway is people who dump truckloads of money into a car and turn it into a pro touring machine and then hope to sell if for huge profits are going to be sadly mistaken. Trust me, it's just a fad. Pro stock began in the 80s, was huge in the late 80s/early 90s, but by the end of the 90s it was virtually dead. Nowadays you can pick up a 20K pro stock car for under 10k. It is officially DOA. Mark my words, that's the future of pro touring.
My advice is if someone wants to make a pro touring car to enjoy then go ahead. If that's what they want to drive and own, then go ahead and live the dream. If they are doing it for the money then forget it. Do something else, such as buy some stocks.
My whole point anyway is people who dump truckloads of money into a car and turn it into a pro touring machine and then hope to sell if for huge profits are going to be sadly mistaken. Trust me, it's just a fad. Pro stock began in the 80s, was huge in the late 80s/early 90s, but by the end of the 90s it was virtually dead. Nowadays you can pick up a 20K pro stock car for under 10k. It is officially DOA. Mark my words, that's the future of pro touring.
My advice is if someone wants to make a pro touring car to enjoy then go ahead. If that's what they want to drive and own, then go ahead and live the dream. If they are doing it for the money then forget it. Do something else, such as buy some stocks.
06-15-2004, 06:18 PM
#15
What do you think the MULE would go for?
How about the Red Witch?... Cars are worth what people want to pay.. if someone wants an updated 69 Camaro then one with the LS1 in it has great value since it saves them both $$$ and more importantly TIME..
I get offers on my car and its not even done yet.. i would be luck to break even but this is a hobby and not an investment..
What did they off you Datsbad?? I will up it by $50!!
you have one sweet car!
How about the Red Witch?... Cars are worth what people want to pay.. if someone wants an updated 69 Camaro then one with the LS1 in it has great value since it saves them both $$$ and more importantly TIME..
I get offers on my car and its not even done yet.. i would be luck to break even but this is a hobby and not an investment..
What did they off you Datsbad?? I will up it by $50!!
you have one sweet car!
06-15-2004, 11:38 PM
#16
I believe pro-touring will be around much longer than pro-street. Why?
1. Pro touring cars are much more driver friendly. Better brakes, more streetable suspension setups, emphasis on interior upgrades and comfort, and they perform as good as they look (if built properly).
2. Pro touring cars are modeled after late model performance vehicles. Its just adding a bunch of modern stuff to a classic body style, thats it. Pro-Street cars were pseudo trailer queens, built to "look" like a drag car. They still had crappy drivability, the rear tires and tubs made alot of noise in the car, and the engines were gas guzzlers. You can take a pro-touring car on a road trip in comfort, not a pro-street car.
3. As long as big brakes, upgraded suspension, and modern EFI power and reliability are popular, pro-touring cars will remain popular. I don't see those items ever losing any popularity. I can remember several cars featured in magazines over the last 15 years that had the pro-touring philosophy, even though the phrase wasn't coined yet. I always drooled over those project cars. You know the ones, the 55-57 cars with late model Vette suspensions and engines, the 30s hotrods with independent rears from vettes, modern engines, upgraded interiors, etc... Those cars are STILL cool even today, even if they were built over a decade ago.
So, unless everyone starts putting lift kits on their classic cars and mudder tires become all the rage, I don't see pro-touring style cars disappearing anytime soon.
BTW, I never cared for Pro-Street style cars much. I'd rather have a car that hauls *** for real than a car that "looks" like it can haul ***. I've seen too many pro-street show cars running 11s-12s at the track when they look like 7-8 second cars. YAWN.
1. Pro touring cars are much more driver friendly. Better brakes, more streetable suspension setups, emphasis on interior upgrades and comfort, and they perform as good as they look (if built properly).
2. Pro touring cars are modeled after late model performance vehicles. Its just adding a bunch of modern stuff to a classic body style, thats it. Pro-Street cars were pseudo trailer queens, built to "look" like a drag car. They still had crappy drivability, the rear tires and tubs made alot of noise in the car, and the engines were gas guzzlers. You can take a pro-touring car on a road trip in comfort, not a pro-street car.
3. As long as big brakes, upgraded suspension, and modern EFI power and reliability are popular, pro-touring cars will remain popular. I don't see those items ever losing any popularity. I can remember several cars featured in magazines over the last 15 years that had the pro-touring philosophy, even though the phrase wasn't coined yet. I always drooled over those project cars. You know the ones, the 55-57 cars with late model Vette suspensions and engines, the 30s hotrods with independent rears from vettes, modern engines, upgraded interiors, etc... Those cars are STILL cool even today, even if they were built over a decade ago.
So, unless everyone starts putting lift kits on their classic cars and mudder tires become all the rage, I don't see pro-touring style cars disappearing anytime soon.
BTW, I never cared for Pro-Street style cars much. I'd rather have a car that hauls *** for real than a car that "looks" like it can haul ***. I've seen too many pro-street show cars running 11s-12s at the track when they look like 7-8 second cars. YAWN.
06-19-2004, 10:18 AM
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Some very good discussion that I had to get caught up on since I was out of town all week.
based on some of the modified 55-57 Chevy's I've seen go for over $200k at Barret-Jackson I would say the value would depend on the level of detail and quality of the way the car was put together.
The market for 69 Camaro's is strong right now and a well done, all new, properly put together, 400-450 hp LS1 6 speed, with computers/wiring, digi gauges, A/C upgraded interior, and new 18" rims is a $50k + car.
Infact the dude on Dream Car garage had a similar 69 Camaro on their show and test drove it on the strip and a road course and stated that "they couldn't determine an exact value, but it was well over $100k"
based on some of the modified 55-57 Chevy's I've seen go for over $200k at Barret-Jackson I would say the value would depend on the level of detail and quality of the way the car was put together.
The market for 69 Camaro's is strong right now and a well done, all new, properly put together, 400-450 hp LS1 6 speed, with computers/wiring, digi gauges, A/C upgraded interior, and new 18" rims is a $50k + car.
Infact the dude on Dream Car garage had a similar 69 Camaro on their show and test drove it on the strip and a road course and stated that "they couldn't determine an exact value, but it was well over $100k"
