May 18, 2016, 06:11 PM
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1997 Thunderbird Gen III Budget Engine Swap
Sorry, for some reason I was thinking this was an old thread.
Anyway, here's a pic of the wheel I was talking about. I couldn't find any good pics of it actually on a T-Bird though. It's the "Cobra R"
I think Ford Motorsport makes them in the proper patern/offset for the MN12 cars. Then again, that doesn't matter if you'll be running Mustang stuff. Good idea, btw...those cars are rear drum right? I HATE drum brakes!
A set of Mustang Bullits would look good on there too, I bet.
Did your 3.8 need head gaskets when you pulled it? I've never known a Ford 3.8 that DIDN'T need them, lol. Seriously, EVERY person I've known who owned a car with that motor had head gasket problems. What a POS...only decent 3.8 is made by GM.
Doing the conversion would be great, but I already have a LS1 car
I'd probably do a T-Bird anyway...as much as I loved the Cougar (or the "Phat Cat", as we used to call it, lol), I like the look of the Bird a little better, the roofline looks sleeker.
Anyway, here's a pic of the wheel I was talking about. I couldn't find any good pics of it actually on a T-Bird though. It's the "Cobra R"
I think Ford Motorsport makes them in the proper patern/offset for the MN12 cars. Then again, that doesn't matter if you'll be running Mustang stuff. Good idea, btw...those cars are rear drum right? I HATE drum brakes!
A set of Mustang Bullits would look good on there too, I bet.
Did your 3.8 need head gaskets when you pulled it? I've never known a Ford 3.8 that DIDN'T need them, lol. Seriously, EVERY person I've known who owned a car with that motor had head gasket problems. What a POS...only decent 3.8 is made by GM.
Doing the conversion would be great, but I already have a LS1 car
I'd probably do a T-Bird anyway...as much as I loved the Cougar (or the "Phat Cat", as we used to call it, lol), I like the look of the Bird a little better, the roofline looks sleeker.
Nope, but it's all good. 
I like those wheels too. I want something that isn't too flashy I could paint to match the body and look like a factory installed option. That means nothing chrome, big, heavy or "blingy." (is that a word?)
The car had standard 15's, I got the 16's from an anniversary Cougar for brake clearance and I thought about 17 or 18's from a Mustang.
1996 / 1997 cars are disk brakes all the way around. I've been to therapy and been weened off old technology so I don't do drums any more. This means any car I buy has disks or gets converted ASAP.
I was originally thinking the "bullet" wheels, but as options roll in that may change. I guess I need to do so photo shop work to see what looks best to me.
Amazingly enough this car had 110K without a single head gasket issue. I figured the previous owner had pushed her luck enough with the engine before I bought it and drove another year. Coupled with the discovery that every power upgrade for the car required MAJOR rework and would only net between 25 and 50 HP (started with 140), the choice was clear.
I don't think you can have too many LS powered cars... look at LS1nova71's arsenal of vehicles.
I like those wheels too. I want something that isn't too flashy I could paint to match the body and look like a factory installed option. That means nothing chrome, big, heavy or "blingy." (is that a word?)
The car had standard 15's, I got the 16's from an anniversary Cougar for brake clearance and I thought about 17 or 18's from a Mustang. 1996 / 1997 cars are disk brakes all the way around. I've been to therapy and been weened off old technology so I don't do drums any more. This means any car I buy has disks or gets converted ASAP.
I was originally thinking the "bullet" wheels, but as options roll in that may change. I guess I need to do so photo shop work to see what looks best to me.
Amazingly enough this car had 110K without a single head gasket issue. I figured the previous owner had pushed her luck enough with the engine before I bought it and drove another year. Coupled with the discovery that every power upgrade for the car required MAJOR rework and would only net between 25 and 50 HP (started with 140), the choice was clear.
I don't think you can have too many LS powered cars... look at LS1nova71's arsenal of vehicles.
Teching In
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
From: Piqua, Oh
I am really enjoying reading about this swap. I have '96 that I bought new. (blew head gasket @ 156k) I was wondering if you had checked your gas milage. I'm thinking it probably would be close to same, with a lot better performance. I get 18/23.
Each time I check I get 16 - 17 city and 26 - 27 highway. I think I'm pretty close to the same as before on mileage, maybe a bit less. My work location changed (less highway) pre swap and I wasn't keeping as tight of an eye on mileage before, but I knew I could go about 280 - 300 miles on a fill. Sorry. I can say this, the tire size and gear ratio in the car are the same as before.
That is why this is a budget build using mostly salvage yard parts. 
Later thoughts are possibly porting the heads, bigger valves, raising the CR, an LS6 cam and intake, true dual exhaust, etc. Update... Hey SWS, you were right! The driveshaft is twisted and bent slightly.
Want to know some other trivia? The V8 cars use a 58" shaft while the V6 cars use a 57" version with the same transmission - ask me how I know this...
F#$%^#& Ford making things difficult again.
I finally weighed the car. I almost fell off the scale when I saw the number since I thought the car was much closer to 4000. Granted I put 13 gallons of gas in later that night so add another 80 lbs (approx 6lbs/gallon). There has been no weight reduction done to the car besides removing the original Ford V6, 470RW transmission and a bunch of extra crap. I know what Wikipedia says, but I weighed this car before and I swear it was in the 3900 range (without me) but I don't have my notes in front of me. Maybe that was the night I had the dead guy and shovels in the trunk. Hmmm... J/K
The search is on for some aluminum control arms, center section and other fat reducing items...
Want to know some other trivia? The V8 cars use a 58" shaft while the V6 cars use a 57" version with the same transmission - ask me how I know this...
F#$%^#& Ford making things difficult again.I finally weighed the car. I almost fell off the scale when I saw the number since I thought the car was much closer to 4000. Granted I put 13 gallons of gas in later that night so add another 80 lbs (approx 6lbs/gallon). There has been no weight reduction done to the car besides removing the original Ford V6, 470RW transmission and a bunch of extra crap. I know what Wikipedia says, but I weighed this car before and I swear it was in the 3900 range (without me) but I don't have my notes in front of me. Maybe that was the night I had the dead guy and shovels in the trunk. Hmmm...
J/KThe search is on for some aluminum control arms, center section and other fat reducing items...
It's like Christmas. I got my drive shaft back from the machine shop yesterday. All new one piece tube and ears with my original slip yoke and flange. I had already replaced the U-Joints so they stayed as well. This replaces the factory fuse (crimped multi-diameter) shaft that was in the car originally. Weight savings: 1 lb.
Original slightly bent DS (top) with V8 shaft.
New DS next to original tube.
I was going to go with aluminum but the cost was prohibitive and the slight performance gain / vs more than doubling the cost wasn't working out for me on this build. The goal is a fun daily driver, not a purpose built race machine.
Original slightly bent DS (top) with V8 shaft.
New DS next to original tube.
I was going to go with aluminum but the cost was prohibitive and the slight performance gain / vs more than doubling the cost wasn't working out for me on this build. The goal is a fun daily driver, not a purpose built race machine.
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Launching!
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 209
Likes: 0
From: KCMO
You should have taken me up on my offer. That way, you could have had one that worked and saved a bit of scratch for the Mark VIII unit (and of course the modification). You need the Mark VIII for the 'luminum lowers and pumpkin anyway.
Oh, do you want to know the tricks of getting them off in the yard? If you do not know, you will pull (and pay) for the half shafts too.
I will get you the sizes tomorrow if I remember.
SWS
Oh, do you want to know the tricks of getting them off in the yard? If you do not know, you will pull (and pay) for the half shafts too.
I will get you the sizes tomorrow if I remember.
SWS
I'm still going to contact you about the lowers. I remember you said they use torx at the spindle, I've got a full set of those I can bring next time I'm at the yard. I haven't seen a single Mark VIII in either yard since we spoke. 
There were 4 or 5 of them when I didn't realize I could use parts from them and 2 or three while there was snow on the ground.
Too bad I can't take an air compressor and air tools to the yard.
The driveshaft was simple, someone had taken the trans out of the car before I got to it and I just slid it out forward. Too bad it wasn't the right length so I'll be taking it back. I feel much better about the current shaft and it was super inexpensive, so no worries on that. Maybe a Mark shaft in the future but I needed to be able to drive safely now.
What rear shocks are you using again? I guess really what years are we talking?
There were 4 or 5 of them when I didn't realize I could use parts from them and 2 or three while there was snow on the ground. Too bad I can't take an air compressor and air tools to the yard.
The driveshaft was simple, someone had taken the trans out of the car before I got to it and I just slid it out forward. Too bad it wasn't the right length so I'll be taking it back. I feel much better about the current shaft and it was super inexpensive, so no worries on that.
Maybe a Mark shaft in the future but I needed to be able to drive safely now. What rear shocks are you using again? I guess really what years are we talking?
Launching!
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 209
Likes: 0
From: KCMO
First...there will be a small delay while I run to the garage and get the torx size and the axle nut size for you......
Okay the center nut for the axle is 36mm. I have a 35 with the right methods that works fine. The torx are t-50s and take an 18 and a 21 mm to get the nuts loose. The inner bolts and nuts I could not find (yet), but will let you know when I do. I use a huge pair of chanel locks to get on the nut as it is about 1'' or so and there is not enough clearance to get on it. I think the bolt is 21 but I will check when I can get under the car later today. You have to hammer the axle out with a punch (best way I have found) and half an hour, you will be close to yanking the second side. OR, you can break the bolts off of the rear sub frame and pull the whole thing out and it will be easier.
The rear shocks I have are the factory cobra ones with IRS. HUGE difference. Also, you will need some sort of sleeve to put between the bolt body and the t-bird bushing as the cobra shaft is thinner (Kinda knew the mustang guys lacked gerth).
SWS
Okay the center nut for the axle is 36mm. I have a 35 with the right methods that works fine. The torx are t-50s and take an 18 and a 21 mm to get the nuts loose. The inner bolts and nuts I could not find (yet), but will let you know when I do. I use a huge pair of chanel locks to get on the nut as it is about 1'' or so and there is not enough clearance to get on it. I think the bolt is 21 but I will check when I can get under the car later today. You have to hammer the axle out with a punch (best way I have found) and half an hour, you will be close to yanking the second side. OR, you can break the bolts off of the rear sub frame and pull the whole thing out and it will be easier.
The rear shocks I have are the factory cobra ones with IRS. HUGE difference. Also, you will need some sort of sleeve to put between the bolt body and the t-bird bushing as the cobra shaft is thinner (Kinda knew the mustang guys lacked gerth).
SWS
Teching In
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Can't believe I found this thread!! I looked all over last year for info on this figuring someone somewhere had to have done it. Now here I am, 4 months late to the party... 
I have a 1996 green lx that I have planned a gen3 swap for since before I bought it. I am sooo happy to see this thread and hear how well it went for you. I just installed a Tokico kit on it, the next upgrade will be the seats. These low back seats are shitty. I am going to swap in some nice tan leather seats, and the only other two things I have planned for it is the engine swap and the hub swap. I want a set of terminator wheels for it. Of course now that you have already done the 5.3, you have left me with no choice but to do the 6L...
Q: have you had your cluster out? do you think it would be hard to run a camaro cluster in it's place? that's kind of what I had in mind. Thanks!
I have a 1996 green lx that I have planned a gen3 swap for since before I bought it. I am sooo happy to see this thread and hear how well it went for you. I just installed a Tokico kit on it, the next upgrade will be the seats. These low back seats are shitty. I am going to swap in some nice tan leather seats, and the only other two things I have planned for it is the engine swap and the hub swap. I want a set of terminator wheels for it. Of course now that you have already done the 5.3, you have left me with no choice but to do the 6L...
Q: have you had your cluster out? do you think it would be hard to run a camaro cluster in it's place? that's kind of what I had in mind. Thanks!
No worries. If you have any questions about the swap, just post it here or PM me and I will answer them to the best of my abilities.
I chose the 5.3 because they are much cheaper and I wasn't going to mess with anything more than a cam internally. Since the goal wasn't making "big" power and I have other cars I may build a 6.0 for, the 5.3 was just fine.
Yes, I've had the cluster out but just looking at Camaro cluster pictures I doubt it would fit without heavy modification to the dash, cluster or both. Assuming the depth would even work - they are completely different shapes and possibly sizes (as evidenced by my pirated ebay pictures).
1996 - 1997 Thunderbird cluster...
gBWk~$(KGrHqQOKjwEt8nE9T(CBLhENYMr4!~~_12.JPG)
1999 Camaro cluster...
I chose the 5.3 because they are much cheaper and I wasn't going to mess with anything more than a cam internally. Since the goal wasn't making "big" power and I have other cars I may build a 6.0 for, the 5.3 was just fine.
Yes, I've had the cluster out but just looking at Camaro cluster pictures I doubt it would fit without heavy modification to the dash, cluster or both. Assuming the depth would even work - they are completely different shapes and possibly sizes (as evidenced by my pirated ebay pictures).
1996 - 1997 Thunderbird cluster...
1999 Camaro cluster...
Teching In
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
daMmmmmmM Gofastwclass dam you. Great project. I just got the same idea a few weeks ago from seeing a lsx swap in an old chevy wagon. Got an idea of how cool it would be to swap an lsx motor in my 98 mark viii ( budget no money at the moment due to no job) ( just reemployed). Can you narrow the install procedure , mod, trouble shooting. I'm shooting for a year before my project comes to life. Lsx motor just are everyones fav. I fiquered there be more room
Staging Lane
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 86
Likes: 0
Gofastwclass your swap was epic...the fact you kept it around 2 is impressive on its own. So far im at 1500 with out the engine in the car or with out my pulleys/ engine harness or computer.
thanks again for all your advice and help with my own swap
did I mention im jealous of your skills....
Teching In
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
I think there's more than one style of thunderbird cluster. Its not drastically different but mine looks like this.
A pic I took a while back of the dash in a ws6 and it seemed closer.
I figured I'd just tuck it down a little low and make some little block off plates for the corners. Maybe lean it back at an angle. The only reason I even wanted to do it was I thought it could be integrated into a custom harness. Would make it easy (speedometer, etc) to have a gm sensor with a gm computer sending a signal to a gm cluster. I had planned to use all camaro spec stuff, pcm, harness, etc.
A pic I took a while back of the dash in a ws6 and it seemed closer.
I figured I'd just tuck it down a little low and make some little block off plates for the corners. Maybe lean it back at an angle. The only reason I even wanted to do it was I thought it could be integrated into a custom harness. Would make it easy (speedometer, etc) to have a gm sensor with a gm computer sending a signal to a gm cluster. I had planned to use all camaro spec stuff, pcm, harness, etc.
Devil, yours looks way different than mine. Your car is a 1996? I thought that dash was 1994 - 1995. Hmmm....
I'm using a Dakota Digital converter for the speed since the GM output signal is different than the Ford. The tach can be programmed through the PCM to be what you need but Dakota Digital sells a converter box for that if you can't reprogram the PCM.
Thanks for the compliments asalian. The budget comes from really smart and frugal shopping coupled with years of experience building cars. There were no magical mystery parts that showed up at the door for free like on TV or in magazines, no helpers to hold or loosen stuff - heck I didn't even have anyone around to take pictures. I locked myself away in the lab every night for four to six weeks and out came a beast.
lincolnboy... Originally I was looking for a Mark VIII but I stumbled across the Thunderbird from a friend for the right price. Since it was also on the list of cars I always wanted I had to pounce. Besides the bird is lighter than the Mark.
What did you specifically want to know about the swap? In concept the Mark and bird are (mostly) the same car so much of my knowledge will transfer.
I actually have more room with the new engine than I did before in some ways and less in others. Without seeing the car it's difficult for you to tell but the Gen III engines are a LOT narrower than mod motors. Granted my car was a V6 but changing plugs is much easier, as is oil. I can also swap headers without too much trouble.
I'm using a Dakota Digital converter for the speed since the GM output signal is different than the Ford. The tach can be programmed through the PCM to be what you need but Dakota Digital sells a converter box for that if you can't reprogram the PCM.
Thanks for the compliments asalian. The budget comes from really smart and frugal shopping coupled with years of experience building cars. There were no magical mystery parts that showed up at the door for free like on TV or in magazines, no helpers to hold or loosen stuff - heck I didn't even have anyone around to take pictures. I locked myself away in the lab every night for four to six weeks and out came a beast.
lincolnboy... Originally I was looking for a Mark VIII but I stumbled across the Thunderbird from a friend for the right price. Since it was also on the list of cars I always wanted I had to pounce. Besides the bird is lighter than the Mark.
What did you specifically want to know about the swap? In concept the Mark and bird are (mostly) the same car so much of my knowledge will transfer.
I actually have more room with the new engine than I did before in some ways and less in others. Without seeing the car it's difficult for you to tell but the Gen III engines are a LOT narrower than mod motors. Granted my car was a V6 but changing plugs is much easier, as is oil. I can also swap headers without too much trouble.
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 3,452
Likes: 3
From: somewhere that doesn't get snow
I think there's more than one style of thunderbird cluster. Its not drastically different but mine looks like this.
A pic I took a while back of the dash in a ws6 and it seemed closer.
I figured I'd just tuck it down a little low and make some little block off plates for the corners. Maybe lean it back at an angle. The only reason I even wanted to do it was I thought it could be integrated into a custom harness. Would make it easy (speedometer, etc) to have a gm sensor with a gm computer sending a signal to a gm cluster. I had planned to use all camaro spec stuff, pcm, harness, etc.
A pic I took a while back of the dash in a ws6 and it seemed closer.
I figured I'd just tuck it down a little low and make some little block off plates for the corners. Maybe lean it back at an angle. The only reason I even wanted to do it was I thought it could be integrated into a custom harness. Would make it easy (speedometer, etc) to have a gm sensor with a gm computer sending a signal to a gm cluster. I had planned to use all camaro spec stuff, pcm, harness, etc.
cool pic. reminds me of my old car's gauge cluster vs my current car. old car had a boost gauge instead of a volt gauge though
Teching In
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Motor mounts, any k member mods, what harness did you use. I'm wanting to use an ls2 if money if aviable. Did the tranny fit driveshaft, how did headers work with the stock steering shaft. Mod motor for these cars are $$$$$$$$$ to much to do to make cobra stuf work. There has been plenty of tbird with dohc motor swap with hardly any room left.