C10 5.3 LS Build
Banned
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 3,540
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In order to achieve the highest level of satisfaction with the end result of your project, I recommend you write out a list of the features, characteristics and functionality you want your truck to possess when it’s done and then buy parts that will allow you to check things off that list. Working through the swap in a stepped manner without considering how a particular installed part or task is going to affect successive steps may cause you to have to make a compromise that you’re not happy with. The transmission and accessory drive system you plan use have just as much an affect on determining the optimal placement of the engine as the engine itself does. Do you plan to have A/C and do you want to use a low-mount A/C compressor? If so, you need to plan for it up-front as some engine mounting components/methods occupy the same physical space where the compressor would be mounted. Any headers you buy are going to have been prototyped to fit with the engine mounted in a specific position; are the headers you want to use compatible with the engine position that allows you to achieve your list of goals? Is there a transmission crossmember available that works with the engine mounts you want to use to provide desirable U-joint working angles and the clearance to route your exhaust system in the configuration you want? There are many questions like these that are best answered before you buy a single part.
Lots of C10 swap info here. -->http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/f...play.php?f=206
Can I offer some inspiration with my truck?
Can I offer some inspiration with my truck?
Thanks for specifying, that helps. We are in the middle of development of the Hooker Blackheart LS swap system for the 67-72 Chevy trucks right now in the Holley engineering lab, but I can't say when exactly the parts within it will become available. What I can say however, is that accommodation of a T56 transmission has been taken care of in the design of the transmission crossmember. You may get lucky and get some tips from others members here regarding existing parts on the market that will accomplish the same thing for you.
Banned
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 3,540
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Nice truck Slick68! I'm not able to post any images of the headers until it becomes time to build a preview thread for the entire system, but I can tell you by written description that the collectors do peek below the frame ever-so-slightly. The amount that is visible is of no concern unless you were building a truck to "lay frame". they are higher than numerous other reference points under the truck such as the transmission pan (there's a 4L80E in the truck at the moment), the front lower control arms and the engine crossmember itself. If a T56 transmission were installed in the truck, the belly of the transmission case would be lower than both the headers and the 3" exhaust system they are connected to. Ultimately, they may not be of much use to you as the design geometry of the engine mounts they are designed to fit with are considerably different than what you are using.
Nice truck Slick68! I'm not able to post any images of the headers until it becomes time to build a preview thread for the entire system, but I can tell you by written description that the collectors do peek below the frame ever-so-slightly. The amount that is visible is of no concern unless you were building a truck to "lay frame". they are higher than numerous other reference points under the truck such as the transmission pan (there's a 4L80E in the truck at the moment), the front lower control arms and the engine crossmember itself. If a T56 transmission were installed in the truck, the belly of the transmission case would be lower than both the headers and the 3" exhaust system they are connected to. Ultimately, they may not be of much use to you as the design geometry of the engine mounts they are designed to fit with are considerably different than what you are using.
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,645
Likes: 526
Sick68,
I followed your build. I couldn't afford all the TCI stuff you did but I really liked what you did. If I lowered my LS 1/2' to 3/4" the Speedway Engineering headers would hang down below the frame about maybe 3/4". Hard to tell until they are bolted on. I'm thinking if you are "laying frame" long tube headers are not in your future. My LS1 has a small cam and AFR heads. With the 4:10 gears and the T56 it's not slow. I happen to have a L92 with again a smaller cam sitting in my shop. I keep hearing very faint whispers from the L92 something to the affect of "Put me in coach I'm ready to play"!
I followed your build. I couldn't afford all the TCI stuff you did but I really liked what you did. If I lowered my LS 1/2' to 3/4" the Speedway Engineering headers would hang down below the frame about maybe 3/4". Hard to tell until they are bolted on. I'm thinking if you are "laying frame" long tube headers are not in your future. My LS1 has a small cam and AFR heads. With the 4:10 gears and the T56 it's not slow. I happen to have a L92 with again a smaller cam sitting in my shop. I keep hearing very faint whispers from the L92 something to the affect of "Put me in coach I'm ready to play"!
Sick68,
I followed your build. I couldn't afford all the TCI stuff you did but I really liked what you did. If I lowered my LS 1/2' to 3/4" the Speedway Engineering headers would hang down below the frame about maybe 3/4". Hard to tell until they are bolted on. I'm thinking if you are "laying frame" long tube headers are not in your future. My LS1 has a small cam and AFR heads. With the 4:10 gears and the T56 it's not slow. I happen to have a L92 with again a smaller cam sitting in my shop. I keep hearing very faint whispers from the L92 something to the affect of "Put me in coach I'm ready to play"!
I followed your build. I couldn't afford all the TCI stuff you did but I really liked what you did. If I lowered my LS 1/2' to 3/4" the Speedway Engineering headers would hang down below the frame about maybe 3/4". Hard to tell until they are bolted on. I'm thinking if you are "laying frame" long tube headers are not in your future. My LS1 has a small cam and AFR heads. With the 4:10 gears and the T56 it's not slow. I happen to have a L92 with again a smaller cam sitting in my shop. I keep hearing very faint whispers from the L92 something to the affect of "Put me in coach I'm ready to play"!
Anyway, enough about my stuff. I didn't mean to steal the attention of the OP's topic. Let's get our heads out of the gutter and back on topic! haha
On The Tree
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 156
Likes: 1
Nice!
I spent my childhood in my grandpa's 70 C10, 307 three on tree, no ps or pb but it did have AC. I was with him and my Dad when we drove across Texas to buy it and put thousands of miles on it, behind the wheel between the age of 9 and 13. He died in 1982 when I was 18 and my grandmother sold it even though she new I wanted it, "you will get enough money when I die to buy ten trucks"...true, but not my grandpa's.
I spent my childhood in my grandpa's 70 C10, 307 three on tree, no ps or pb but it did have AC. I was with him and my Dad when we drove across Texas to buy it and put thousands of miles on it, behind the wheel between the age of 9 and 13. He died in 1982 when I was 18 and my grandmother sold it even though she new I wanted it, "you will get enough money when I die to buy ten trucks"...true, but not my grandpa's.
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Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
In order to achieve the highest level of satisfaction with the end result of your project, I recommend you write out a list of the features, characteristics and functionality you want your truck to possess when it’s done and then buy parts that will allow you to check things off that list. Working through the swap in a stepped manner without considering how a particular installed part or task is going to affect successive steps may cause you to have to make a compromise that you’re not happy with. The transmission and accessory drive system you plan use have just as much an affect on determining the optimal placement of the engine as the engine itself does. Do you plan to have A/C and do you want to use a low-mount A/C compressor? If so, you need to plan for it up-front as some engine mounting components/methods occupy the same physical space where the compressor would be mounted. Any headers you buy are going to have been prototyped to fit with the engine mounted in a specific position; are the headers you want to use compatible with the engine position that allows you to achieve your list of goals? Is there a transmission crossmember available that works with the engine mounts you want to use to provide desirable U-joint working angles and the clearance to route your exhaust system in the configuration you want? There are many questions like these that are best answered before you buy a single part.
As far as characteristics and functionality, I would like a truck that can tow a trailer with a car on it without struggling. From everything I have read, the 5.3 and 6.0 engines have similar MPG as long as I am not flooring it everywhere I go. I drive very conservatively on the highway so it seems the 6.0 might be the way to go. Already found a few in junk yard around my area, just need the time to go pull them.
Yes, I want AC. I was thinking of using the Vintage Air system to add AC to my car. Not sure if that will have any mounting issues with the Dirty Dingo engine mounts.
I saw a transmission crossmember by Dirty Dingo that is adjustable, fits C10 trucks with the 4l80 transmission and allows the use of long tube headers. Also says it will retain factory transmission angle for proper driveshaft alignment.
Thank you for the list of questions, it really helps plan things out to make sure I am not buying parts twice because of clearance or compatibility issues.
Banned
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 3,540
Likes: 207
Casper0878, your original post made it sound as if you were leaning towards using a T56 transmission, if so, be careful not to conflate the installation requirements of that transmission with the 4L80 transmission you just mentioned. The rear trans mount attachment plane on a T56 transmission is forward of the mount attachment plane on the 4L80 and considerably lower(more than an inch), so any crossmember designed to install a 4L80 that does not have the ability for the mount pick up pad to be adjusted downward by at least 1.25" is not going to work for a T56 installation.
Crossmembers that are designed to be attached to the lower frame rail are the most likely to give issue in this regard as they can obviously be shimmed up, but not down by nature of their design. If you find a similar crossmember designed specifically for use in a T56 installation, it can be used for a 4L80 installation in reverse in your application as you would be moving it rearward on the frame rail and then be creating a spacer block for the mount to make up the difference in elevation height.
You really have to find a crossmember that maintains the factory engine/trans inclination angle if you are planning on lowering your truck as the trans mount elevation height is going to be different in both cases in order to achieve optimized U-joint operating angles. If you lower your truck by the amount that is commonly seen on trucks like yours (4" to 6" range in the rear), you will have to raise the tail of your transmission and adjust your rear pinion angle in order to obtain optimized angles of your U-joints and drivetrain components following your lowering kit installation.
There is a limit as to how far upward you can go with your trans tail before you begin experiencing interference with the floor of the truck. If you run out of adjustment, your choices for obtaining more is to cut-out/raise your cab floor, or lower your engine mounting height. Because of this, it is advantages to use engine mounts that are designed from the beginning for use on lowered trucks so that they position the engine crankshaft center line lower in the chassis than the crankshaft center line of the stock engine that was removed from the truck. Be careful with this as some mounting brackets on the market actually place the crankshaft center line higher off of the frame than the original engine position and will work against your ability to dial-in your set-up without experiencing major grief.
Regardless of your final ride height, you'll want to end up with low U-joint operating angles (3 degrees is maximum and I shoot for 1 to 2 degrees when developing Hooker Blackheart engine swap systems) and close to matched eng/trans inclination and pinion angles (within half a degree of each other under load) if you expect the ability to drive your truck hard and get long, vibration-free service life from your U-joints.
Once you get that dialed-in, you can start your search for a set of headers that was designed for optimized fitment at the same engine inclination angle that you arrived at with your engine/trans installation to optimize your U-joint working angles. All of the variables, and more, are all factored into the design of every component that is developed for a complete engine swap system and you will always find multiples of these considerations ignored in the designs of most universal stand-alone swap components.
Crossmembers that are designed to be attached to the lower frame rail are the most likely to give issue in this regard as they can obviously be shimmed up, but not down by nature of their design. If you find a similar crossmember designed specifically for use in a T56 installation, it can be used for a 4L80 installation in reverse in your application as you would be moving it rearward on the frame rail and then be creating a spacer block for the mount to make up the difference in elevation height.
You really have to find a crossmember that maintains the factory engine/trans inclination angle if you are planning on lowering your truck as the trans mount elevation height is going to be different in both cases in order to achieve optimized U-joint operating angles. If you lower your truck by the amount that is commonly seen on trucks like yours (4" to 6" range in the rear), you will have to raise the tail of your transmission and adjust your rear pinion angle in order to obtain optimized angles of your U-joints and drivetrain components following your lowering kit installation.
There is a limit as to how far upward you can go with your trans tail before you begin experiencing interference with the floor of the truck. If you run out of adjustment, your choices for obtaining more is to cut-out/raise your cab floor, or lower your engine mounting height. Because of this, it is advantages to use engine mounts that are designed from the beginning for use on lowered trucks so that they position the engine crankshaft center line lower in the chassis than the crankshaft center line of the stock engine that was removed from the truck. Be careful with this as some mounting brackets on the market actually place the crankshaft center line higher off of the frame than the original engine position and will work against your ability to dial-in your set-up without experiencing major grief.
Regardless of your final ride height, you'll want to end up with low U-joint operating angles (3 degrees is maximum and I shoot for 1 to 2 degrees when developing Hooker Blackheart engine swap systems) and close to matched eng/trans inclination and pinion angles (within half a degree of each other under load) if you expect the ability to drive your truck hard and get long, vibration-free service life from your U-joints.
Once you get that dialed-in, you can start your search for a set of headers that was designed for optimized fitment at the same engine inclination angle that you arrived at with your engine/trans installation to optimize your U-joint working angles. All of the variables, and more, are all factored into the design of every component that is developed for a complete engine swap system and you will always find multiples of these considerations ignored in the designs of most universal stand-alone swap components.
Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Casper0878, your original post made it sound as if you were leaning towards using a T56 transmission, if so, be careful not to conflate the installation requirements of that transmission with the 4L80 transmission you just mentioned. The rear trans mount attachment plane on a T56 transmission is forward of the mount attachment plane on the 4L80 and considerably lower(more than an inch), so any crossmember designed to install a 4L80 that does not have the ability for the mount pick up pad to be adjusted downward by at least 1.25" is not going to work for a T56 installation.
Crossmembers that are designed to be attached to the lower frame rail are the most likely to give issue in this regard as they can obviously be shimmed up, but not down by nature of their design. If you find a similar crossmember designed specifically for use in a T56 installation, it can be used for a 4L80 installation in reverse in your application as you would be moving it rearward on the frame rail and then be creating a spacer block for the mount to make up the difference in elevation height.
You really have to find a crossmember that maintains the factory engine/trans inclination angle if you are planning on lowering your truck as the trans mount elevation height is going to be different in both cases in order to achieve optimized U-joint operating angles. If you lower your truck by the amount that is commonly seen on trucks like yours (4" to 6" range in the rear), you will have to raise the tail of your transmission and adjust your rear pinion angle in order to obtain optimized angles of your U-joints and drivetrain components following your lowering kit installation.
There is a limit as to how far upward you can go with your trans tail before you begin experiencing interference with the floor of the truck. If you run out of adjustment, your choices for obtaining more is to cut-out/raise your cab floor, or lower your engine mounting height. Because of this, it is advantages to use engine mounts that are designed from the beginning for use on lowered trucks so that they position the engine crankshaft center line lower in the chassis than the crankshaft center line of the stock engine that was removed from the truck. Be careful with this as some mounting brackets on the market actually place the crankshaft center line higher off of the frame than the original engine position and will work against your ability to dial-in your set-up without experiencing major grief.
Regardless of your final ride height, you'll want to end up with low U-joint operating angles (3 degrees is maximum and I shoot for 1 to 2 degrees when developing Hooker Blackheart engine swap systems) and close to matched eng/trans inclination and pinion angles (within half a degree of each other under load) if you expect the ability to drive your truck hard and get long, vibration-free service life from your U-joints.
Once you get that dialed-in, you can start your search for a set of headers that was designed for optimized fitment at the same engine inclination angle that you arrived at with your engine/trans installation to optimize your U-joint working angles. All of the variables, and more, are all factored into the design of every component that is developed for a complete engine swap system and you will always find multiples of these considerations ignored in the designs of most universal stand-alone swap components.
Crossmembers that are designed to be attached to the lower frame rail are the most likely to give issue in this regard as they can obviously be shimmed up, but not down by nature of their design. If you find a similar crossmember designed specifically for use in a T56 installation, it can be used for a 4L80 installation in reverse in your application as you would be moving it rearward on the frame rail and then be creating a spacer block for the mount to make up the difference in elevation height.
You really have to find a crossmember that maintains the factory engine/trans inclination angle if you are planning on lowering your truck as the trans mount elevation height is going to be different in both cases in order to achieve optimized U-joint operating angles. If you lower your truck by the amount that is commonly seen on trucks like yours (4" to 6" range in the rear), you will have to raise the tail of your transmission and adjust your rear pinion angle in order to obtain optimized angles of your U-joints and drivetrain components following your lowering kit installation.
There is a limit as to how far upward you can go with your trans tail before you begin experiencing interference with the floor of the truck. If you run out of adjustment, your choices for obtaining more is to cut-out/raise your cab floor, or lower your engine mounting height. Because of this, it is advantages to use engine mounts that are designed from the beginning for use on lowered trucks so that they position the engine crankshaft center line lower in the chassis than the crankshaft center line of the stock engine that was removed from the truck. Be careful with this as some mounting brackets on the market actually place the crankshaft center line higher off of the frame than the original engine position and will work against your ability to dial-in your set-up without experiencing major grief.
Regardless of your final ride height, you'll want to end up with low U-joint operating angles (3 degrees is maximum and I shoot for 1 to 2 degrees when developing Hooker Blackheart engine swap systems) and close to matched eng/trans inclination and pinion angles (within half a degree of each other under load) if you expect the ability to drive your truck hard and get long, vibration-free service life from your U-joints.
Once you get that dialed-in, you can start your search for a set of headers that was designed for optimized fitment at the same engine inclination angle that you arrived at with your engine/trans installation to optimize your U-joint working angles. All of the variables, and more, are all factored into the design of every component that is developed for a complete engine swap system and you will always find multiples of these considerations ignored in the designs of most universal stand-alone swap components.
Regarding the transmission crossmember, the Dirty Dingo is designed for lifted or lowered trucks and will retain the factory transmission angle for proper driveshaft alignment according to their website but they do not have much adjustability up or down:
https://www.dirtydingo.com/shop/prod...oducts_id=1795
Tinworks Fabrication also has a crossmember, that is on sale right now, and it seems to have more adjustability. They also sell the engine mounts with transmission crossmember as a kit and on their website they sell the Vintage Air AC kit that I was thinking of getting. I am assuming it will work with their engine mount but have not heard back from them regarding this.
http://www.tinworksfabrication.com/s...nsmission.html
http://www.tinworksfabrication.com/s...onversion.html
http://www.tinworksfabrication.com/s...e-air-c10.html
I had planned on going with Dirty Dingo since I heard good things about their engine mounts and just wanted a one stop shop, but these look really good too and claim to give more adjustability.
Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Hey Matt, do you have a Facebook page or IG so I can follow your build?
Lots of C10 swap info here. -->http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/f...play.php?f=206
Can I offer some inspiration with my truck?
Can I offer some inspiration with my truck?
Depending on your budget and goals there are loads of options. LS swaps are cheaper than ever before with loads of info out there... I did my '71 C10 a loooong time ago and is still a beast to drive.
Since yours was a factory manual I hope you still have the bellhousing that mounts to the frame? The manual trans did not have a crossmember like an auto.
Easy formula:
- Muncie 4 speed / S10 T5 / Gen4 T5 / (harder but possible Ford V8 T5 - requires work)
- Dirty Dingo sliders (yes you need the sliders as the fixed is 1/2" off with the bellhousing bolts)
- Block hugger headers if you want to retain a mechanical clutch linkage.
- Cut down stock driveshaft. Properly balanced and rebuilt at a drivetrain shop.
- Stock truck oil pan.
- Stock mechanical fan.
- In fact the C10 will run all truck accessories etc, so no changes needed from stock configuration.
I have run a 5.3 w LS2 cam and a stock S10 T5 for years on a mechanical linkage. Loads of miles and no problems. Cheap and easy don't get all crazy if you don't have to.
Since yours was a factory manual I hope you still have the bellhousing that mounts to the frame? The manual trans did not have a crossmember like an auto.
Easy formula:
- Muncie 4 speed / S10 T5 / Gen4 T5 / (harder but possible Ford V8 T5 - requires work)
- Dirty Dingo sliders (yes you need the sliders as the fixed is 1/2" off with the bellhousing bolts)
- Block hugger headers if you want to retain a mechanical clutch linkage.
- Cut down stock driveshaft. Properly balanced and rebuilt at a drivetrain shop.
- Stock truck oil pan.
- Stock mechanical fan.
- In fact the C10 will run all truck accessories etc, so no changes needed from stock configuration.
I have run a 5.3 w LS2 cam and a stock S10 T5 for years on a mechanical linkage. Loads of miles and no problems. Cheap and easy don't get all crazy if you don't have to.
Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Just a quick update:
Ended up getting a Vortec Max 2006 LQ9 locally. Engine is in great condition with low miles. Now I am looking for a 4L80e transmission to go with it.
Quick question, my engine has a returnless fuel rail. Can I swap this fuel rail over to a TBSS intake?
Ended up getting a Vortec Max 2006 LQ9 locally. Engine is in great condition with low miles. Now I am looking for a 4L80e transmission to go with it.
Quick question, my engine has a returnless fuel rail. Can I swap this fuel rail over to a TBSS intake?