S10 transfer case?
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S10 transfer case? Is the driveline (transfer case and front diff) on a 93 4wd S-10 strong enough to handle V8 power? I know the Syclone AWD unit can take a decent amount of power but what about the standard S10 stuff? I am considering building a S-10 with a 6 liter and 4wd with drag radials all the way around for traction.
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Hey Boss...
The Sy's and Ty's use standard 4wd front diff parts (except the front axle is full time, not part time, no passenger's side disconnect). And while the 7.25" front diff won't set any records as to ultimate strength, most of the Sy / Ty folks don't have problems with the front axle.
The transfer case that the Sy & Ty use is a Borg Warner 4472. It is also used in the Bravada (up thru 1997) and AWD Astro (up until 1998). It is a full time, viscous coupling transfer case. It splits the power 35% front, 65% rear (although that percentage varies with slippage). There are guys running in the 9's with the stock transfer case.
If you're going to run AWD, the area you will want to spend considerable effort is the transmission. Thats what the Sy Ty guys break. 700R4's / 4L60E's don't last all that long with big power and lots of traction. Plan on either a really well built one (like Rossler or FLP) or repairing them regularly or going with a 4L80E (those are pretty much your 3 options).
I can't say how a normal 4wd box will do on the street with drag radials at all 4 corners. If its a part time box (a regular full mechanical box) I don't know how well it'll drive (may push like a dump truck in corners) due to there not being some form of center differential (or viscous coupling) to allow the front and rear axles to run at different speeds.
BTW, I want to drop a 6l into a 4door 4wd blazer. And do it as AWD, with either 17's or 18's, and ultimately a turbo. Just haven't got going on it yet. There are alot of challenges to overcome. But there isn't anything that is impossible (that I've seen) so its just a matter of doing it.
'Dreamin'
The Sy's and Ty's use standard 4wd front diff parts (except the front axle is full time, not part time, no passenger's side disconnect). And while the 7.25" front diff won't set any records as to ultimate strength, most of the Sy / Ty folks don't have problems with the front axle.
The transfer case that the Sy & Ty use is a Borg Warner 4472. It is also used in the Bravada (up thru 1997) and AWD Astro (up until 1998). It is a full time, viscous coupling transfer case. It splits the power 35% front, 65% rear (although that percentage varies with slippage). There are guys running in the 9's with the stock transfer case.
If you're going to run AWD, the area you will want to spend considerable effort is the transmission. Thats what the Sy Ty guys break. 700R4's / 4L60E's don't last all that long with big power and lots of traction. Plan on either a really well built one (like Rossler or FLP) or repairing them regularly or going with a 4L80E (those are pretty much your 3 options).
I can't say how a normal 4wd box will do on the street with drag radials at all 4 corners. If its a part time box (a regular full mechanical box) I don't know how well it'll drive (may push like a dump truck in corners) due to there not being some form of center differential (or viscous coupling) to allow the front and rear axles to run at different speeds.
BTW, I want to drop a 6l into a 4door 4wd blazer. And do it as AWD, with either 17's or 18's, and ultimately a turbo. Just haven't got going on it yet. There are alot of challenges to overcome. But there isn't anything that is impossible (that I've seen) so its just a matter of doing it.
'Dreamin'
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Thanks, that is exactly the kind of info I was looking for. If I go with a standard xfer case, I wouldn't leave it in 4 hi all the time, would just shift it in there when I need traction.
So does anybody know what is involved in hooking a S-10 transfer case to a 4l80e?
So does anybody know what is involved in hooking a S-10 transfer case to a 4l80e?
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BTW, you may have more problems that the syty guys b/c of the kind of power you will be making. You will have alot more torque than they do. They tend to build into the boost, where you will simply be hitting the drivetrain with full force. I'm not saying the stuff won't hold, but don't expect it to not need replacing/repairing. In otherwords, i wouldn't plan on it as a daily if you want to race it unless you have a very timely shop (or fix it yourself), and the money to fix it if/when it breaks.
^^^^ I like the way this guy thinks.
Check out Jags that Run, they have handled just about everything possible on a V8 S-10 swap. I remember reading that they claimed the stock transfer worked fine behind a blown TPI motor they had. You might want to look them up for some info. Good luck, and long live V8 S-10s.
Check out Jags that Run, they have handled just about everything possible on a V8 S-10 swap. I remember reading that they claimed the stock transfer worked fine behind a blown TPI motor they had. You might want to look them up for some info. Good luck, and long live V8 S-10s.
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Originally Posted by chevy42083
BTW, you may have more problems that the syty guys b/c of the kind of power you will be making. You will have alot more torque than they do. They tend to build into the boost, where you will simply be hitting the drivetrain with full force. I'm not saying the stuff won't hold, but don't expect it to not need replacing/repairing. In otherwords, i wouldn't plan on it as a daily if you want to race it unless you have a very timely shop (or fix it yourself), and the money to fix it if/when it breaks.
Regardless, I think the 80E is a good solution. If you're using a 4wd box, a tcase that was originally found behind an 80E is your easiest solution.
If you want to run an AWD box, there is at least one vendor who is making a conversion setup for the BW4472 transfer case (found in Sy's / Ty's / Bravadas / Astros).
And yes, an 600hp LSx motor with an AWD setup in a 32 Ford would be pretty cool. But, except for the LSx motor part, its been done already. Its called Quadra-Duece. Was built probably 10 years ago. Currently its got a 500+ hp alum smallblock in it. Not that somebody building a second one wouldn't be cool.
'Dreamin'
Originally Posted by JustDreamin
And yes, an 600hp LSx motor with an AWD setup in a 32 Ford would be pretty cool. But, except for the LSx motor part, its been done already. Its called Quadra-Duece. Was built probably 10 years ago. Currently its got a 500+ hp alum smallblock in it. Not that somebody building a second one wouldn't be cool.
'Dreamin'
I just found a couple old street rodder mags on ebay that featured the quadraduece, so hopefully they will have some more technical details of the awd.
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Eric can help you out with adapting the 4L80e to the BW 4472 transfer case and a cross member to mount it as well. http://www.turbotime.us/
Good Luck!
Good Luck!
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Yeah, they'll be happy to help you out. But be warned, this is not for the faint of budget. Last I saw, the guy making the parts (JS Manufacturing) only wanted to sell complete conversion kits. Crossmember, adapter, and a re-cut output shaft. Cost was something in the $1500 range. They'd also be happy to sell you a complete swap in assembly, including transmission and torque convertor, but that was in the $4000+ range, depending upon options chosen. From what I saw on the Sy / Ty boards, the pricing pretty much killed any interest in it. Haven't seen anybody talking about doing an 80E swap lately.
'Dreamin'
'Dreamin'
why not use the xfer case from a late model Cadillac Escallade? They are AWD, and either have a 4l60e or a 4l80e.....not sure on the trans or xfer case, but i know they come AWD instead of 4WD.
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Originally Posted by jimmyp
will the tcase from a 97 astro van bolt up to an f-body or truck 4l60e?
There are a number of problems with the Escalade tcase that make it a less than attractive solution. There isn't much information available about the case, they're fairly expensive, and, from what I've seen, the Escalade uses the 4L60E (haven't seen anything that indicates the 80E has been available) so the transmission isn't any stronger (which really is the main problem). Also, I think the Escalade transmission is a 4wd on demand box (electronically controlled clutch for the front axle) not a true AWD box, which means you need a computer to run it.
Basically, what it boils down to is there are plenty of AWD transfercases available. The problem is that they all use the small (27 spline) transmission output shaft (transfercase input shaft), common to the TH350, 700R4 / 4L60E, and others. The 4L80E (which is the super duty 4 speed auto) uses the TH400 sized ouput shaft (32 spline). All of those good transfer cases are saddled with a transmission (4L60E et al) that can't handle AWD traction.
'Dreamin'
I was thinking about making my Camaro AWD a few years back. I did a bunch of research and talked to some of the GM guys. The AWD boxes (bravada, astro, etc) are rated for up to 1,100 ft.lbs of torque. So unless you are building some insane monster motor, it will hold up just fine. As previously stated the trans will be your difficulty. If you know of a good maching shop, any decent shop should be able to make up an adapter plate to bolt everything together (if they are not directly compatable).
Oh, and unless they updated it, the Quadra Deuce was a Corvette LT-1 when originally built and not an LS-1. I saw it in person years ago at the Columbus Street Rod Nationals. Sweet car!
Oh, and unless they updated it, the Quadra Deuce was a Corvette LT-1 when originally built and not an LS-1. I saw it in person years ago at the Columbus Street Rod Nationals. Sweet car!
Originally Posted by JustDreamin
F-body is a no.....Wrong tailshaft (unless you want to take the whole transmission apart to change output shafts). Truck should work, IF its 4WD. For that matter, the 97 Astro should have a 4L60E in it, why not just pull trans & transfer case as a package?
'Dreamin'
'Dreamin'
I was assuming that the astro vans had a lighter duty 4l60e compared to the trucks/f-bodys????? I know the case on my friends s-10 4l60 was different than my f-body version, but are the internals the same?
I guess if the astro trans would bolt up to and handle the power of a v-8 (as compared to other any 4l60) there wouldnt be any point in changing it. Would the wiring be the same too??
Ive been collecting old magazines from 95 with the buildup of the quadraduece in it, the pics have been very helpful.
thanks for your help
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Originally Posted by Hugger Z
I was thinking about making my Camaro AWD a few years back. I did a bunch of research and talked to some of the GM guys. The AWD boxes (bravada, astro, etc) are rated for up to 1,100 ft.lbs of torque.
1.) 1100 ft-lbs isn't all that high. Consider a 400 ft-lb motor (stock LS2) with
a 4L60e (3.06:1 1st gear) and you're already at 1225 ft-lbs. Multiply that by torque convertor torque multiplication factor (lets assume 1.9) and you get 2325 ft-lbs. Hardly a far fetched scenario.
2.) Counter the rating with the fact that there are Sy's and Ty's running 9's and 10's in the quarter on the stock transfercase (not the stock trannies though). 9's in a basically stock weight truck (3500lbs) is fairly serious power, all the 1/4 mile calculators I've seen indicate 750+ hp. That's not an insignificant load. Question would be whether that motor (turbo V6) can make enough power in 1st gear (limited boost due to limited load) to break things. But still, that's alot of power.
Originally Posted by Hugger Z
So unless you are building some insane monster motor, it will hold up just fine. As previously stated the trans will be your difficulty. If you know of a good maching shop, any decent shop should be able to make up an adapter plate to bolt everything together (if they are not directly compatable).
Originally Posted by Hugger Z
Oh, and unless they updated it, the Quadra Deuce was a Corvette LT-1 when originally built and not an LS-1. I saw it in person years ago at the Columbus Street Rod Nationals. Sweet car!
'Dreamin'
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Originally Posted by jimmyp
thanks...i guess ill just keep an eye out for a 4wd 6.0/trans combo to make it easier.
Basically, you'll have to take your pick. 6.0 with the 80E will be stronger, but limits your options for transfer cases. Use the 6.0l with the 60E, and you'll have to worry about breaking the trans. Its a tough call.
'Dreamin'
Originally Posted by JustDreamin
Most 6.0's with 4wd in trucks (3/4 or 1 ton) will use the 80e, which will require an adapter to mount up. The only 6.0's that I know of that use the 60E are the Silvy SS's and Escalades.
Basically, you'll have to take your pick. 6.0 with the 80E will be stronger, but limits your options for transfer cases. Use the 6.0l with the 60E, and you'll have to worry about breaking the trans. Its a tough call.
'Dreamin'
Basically, you'll have to take your pick. 6.0 with the 80E will be stronger, but limits your options for transfer cases. Use the 6.0l with the 60E, and you'll have to worry about breaking the trans. Its a tough call.
'Dreamin'
Does anyone know the differences between a 97 astro 4l60e compared to an f-body or truck version?
What about a newer 4l65e??? I think they are supposed to be a little better and still use the same case as the 4l60.