Good news and bad news.

I swapped the headgaskets and the radiator today by myself. The 3-layer cometic gasket on the driver's side had blown, causing the cylinder to pressurize my cooling system. Passenger side gasket was okay.

Visual inspection of the block, heads, and sleeve showed nothing wrong. No dropped sleeves, no cracks, etc... So, I cleaned the hell out of the surfaces and swapped in a new set of Fel-Pro gaskets and put the engine back together. When I started it up, we immediately noticed that the radiator was still being pressurized. Josh got his trusty chemical sniffer test tool and stuck it on the radiator. It turned from blue to yellow. That sucks! This means that there is carbon monoxide in my cooling system still.

No water in the oil, so the sleeves aren't leaking. I'm wondering if my thin sleeve(s) have a crack on them, heading into the coolant portion of the block.

Bad news: The engine has to come back out and the block needs to be closely inspected and pressure tested. I feel like I just wasted an entire day, I was hoping to have the car back after 2 months <img border="0" title="" alt="[Sad]" src="gr_sad.gif" />

-Tony

 

That sucks!, before you pull it apart take out all the plugs pressurize the rad. for a min or two spin the motor over and see if you have water in the cycls. if you do you will know where to look when you tear it down

 

Tony why dont you do a iron block 427 with a 4.125 crank and a ~4.060 bore. You wont have to worry about cracking anything and it will handle spray too <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
Cheers,
Chris

 

We will get this setup fixed, and I'll probably run it during the cool months since I've missed the last two winters without a car. Next spring, I may sell the 434ci setup and go with an iron block 4XX ci solid-roller engine. I'd like to make 700-800+ rwhp on nitrous, and this 434ci isn't going to hold up under that much nitrous, the sleeves are too thin and are meant for NA use only. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Sad]" src="gr_sad.gif" />

Tony

 

Tony,

Sorry to hear about this. It's amazing how much difference 0.0255" thickness makes on these liners. All the same, I don't think I will go larger than a 150 shot on mine.

Good luck - hopefully it is something more minor.

<small>[ September 27, 2002, 11:03 AM: Message edited by: WeatherGuy ]</small>

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
Tim
P.S. I already know what Terrys reply to my post will be.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Who are you?

 

That sucks Tony. How is SW's 4.155" bore motor holding up?

 

Man, I will stay away from a sleeved motor like the plague....Especially when you can make the same or more power reliably with a bulit to the gills boosted or sprayed 346. Has anyone NOT had problems with sleeves dropping, cracking, leaking etc?

 

Cantdrv65, keep in mind that my 434ci was the very first larger sleeved motor that MTI built, and it is an "experimental" motor. Since my motor was built, MTI has revised the sleeve design and their machining procedures three times. They have a good idea of what failures are becoming common and how to prevent them now. If this block is found to be damaged, they will just build a brand new one under warranty for me.

We really don't know what is wrong until we pull the engine apart again and inspect everything closely.

Tony

 

<img border="0" alt="[hail]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_hail.gif" /> IRON BLOCK <img border="0" alt="[hail]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_hail.gif" />
<img border="0" alt="[hail]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_hail.gif" /> IRON BLOCK <img border="0" alt="[hail]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_hail.gif" />

<img border="0" alt="[hail]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_hail.gif" /> Nitrous <img border="0" alt="[hail]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_hail.gif" />
<img border="0" alt="[hail]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_hail.gif" /> Nitrous <img border="0" alt="[hail]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_hail.gif" />

Awesome combo

Ken

 

Resleeved blocks suck
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="gr_images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="gr_images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="gr_images/icons/mad.gif" />

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Chris ARE 360:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by WeatherGuy:
<strong>Iron block - durable, can take boost with iron heads, can take big shots of gas, but definitely heavier, hotter, less efficient, and lower compression required if using iron heads. Wall thickness limits bore size here much as sleeve size does on aluminum blocks.

C5R block - nice option for a lot of reasons. Only downside is cost.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What are you talking about? LOL!

You use standard aluminum heads with the Iron block. Not iron heads!

The weight difference is between 65-70 pounds for the stock (not bored) iron block vs alum.

The top end of the motor is absolutely identical.

With a .030 overbore the wall thickness is more than suitable for a 300 shot of spray. The issue with higher amounts of spray on the .030 iron block is not from cylinder weaknesses but from the heads lifting under too much cylinder pressure. (Which is also the case for the alum blocks due to the headbolt design. good studs help alleviate this)

Just wanted to clear that up. There is no reason whatsover to run an iron head on a 6L iron LS1 motor. Both the 5.3 and 6L truck heads are alum.

The ONLY potential downside to running the iron block is the extra 60-70 pounds weight.

Personally I think the durability advantages of iron for juice and the WAY lower cost of machining make the iron block a great affordable option.
Cheers,
Chris</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">OK - did you not read what I wrote? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

1) I said above that you limit compression IF using iron heads. You can use iron LQ4 heads to run bigger shots/boost (but still bolt pattern issue)
2) The big limits on these motors with big shots of gas or a lot of boost is warping of the aluminum heads = blown head gasket. Seems they don't like too much cylinder pressure unfortunately. As you wrote above, it is from the bolt pattern, and not an easy issue to get around. I don't see where the block comes in here as long as the sleeves are not too thin (or block bored out too much).
3) How wide are you going to bore that iron block? At 0.030, how wide is that versus a resleeved block at safe levels? I don't know that there is much of an advantage there. I also don't know what advantage that gets verus a sleeve of the same bore. On the other hand, and no argument on this, too thin of sleeve walls = trouble. But I said that earlier.
4) Regardless of the head composition, the iron motor is going to take longer to cool between runs.
5) 60-70 lbs is a lot or a little, depending upon perspective. But it is definitely heavier, and on the front of the car where you do not want it when launching.
6) Over-boring versus resleeving cost advantage conceded - no argument there. But cost is not everything (at least to me).

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Nine Ball:
<strong>We will get this setup fixed, and I'll probably run it during the cool months since I've missed the last two winters without a car. Next spring, I may sell the 434ci setup and go with an iron block 4XX ci solid-roller engine. I'd like to make 700-800+ rwhp on nitrous, and this 434ci isn't going to hold up under that much nitrous, the sleeves are too thin and are meant for NA use only. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Sad]" src="gr_sad.gif" />

Tony</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Iron block for nitrous.... What a novel idea.... Wish I'd thought of that.

Hope you get it going for the race Tony.

 

The iron block is 4 inch bore. You can go as big as 4.080 bore but you are getting pretty thin. There are a few 4.060 bore iron blocks (.060 over) but .030 over gives plenty of strength cylinder wall wise.

The whole topic of discussion isnt around iron heads vs aluminum heads but around the weaknesses of the superstroker/thin sleeved aluminum blocks vs a .030 bored iron 6L block.

Some of these aluminum superstroker motors have problems naturally aspirated (Tony's 382 and his current motor) but there are also lots of aluminum resleeved blocks that do just fine. It is the luck of the draw.

My point is if you are running juice you are gambling with an aluminum Superstroker. Better off with a stroker 383 or 360 like I have or go iron 6L.

Chris

<small>[ September 28, 2002, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: Chris ARE 360 ]</small>

 

Sorry to hear the new motor tanked Tony, I had an idea you were holding something back <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" /> Too bad about the new headers too.

RE: An iron block, they add 70-80# or so, but you are also stuck with a small bore. It's OK for juice guys, but if you want to spin it up NA the larger bore size works better IMHO. Look at my cheap 396 all bore, does anyone make as much power with such a small hyd cam?

 

Gotta chime in here, because this is getting a little too biased:

Resleeved blocks - there are two potential problems with these:

1) not getting the sleeve in all of the way, which can then lead to the sleeve falling later on and blowing the head gasket

2) using a sleeve with too thin of a wall - which can cause crack problems, and is the identical problem to boring an iron block out too much.

If both of these issues are avoided, then resleeved blocks are FINE. Period. Mine has not burned a drop of coolant or oil in 7 months, which now includes an occasional shot of spray and a LOT of day-to-day commuting miles.

For example, MTI had a bit of a problem with one batch of blocks due to a problem that has since then been corrected (I do not want to give out details to avoid giving out shop secrets). My first block, Larry Cato's first block, and a few others had sleeves fall due to this earlier problem. Since they corrected this problem, it has become extremely rare for this to happen. My second block has been flawless.

Problem 2 above can be avoided by not putting in sleeves that are too thin. It looks like going with about a 4.1" sleeve bore is about the pratical limit - after that things start to get thin.

Having said the above, there are other options:

Iron block - durable, can take boost with iron heads, can take big shots of gas, but definitely heavier, hotter, less efficient, and lower compression required if using iron heads. Wall thickness limits bore size here much as sleeve size does on aluminum blocks.

C5R block - nice option for a lot of reasons. Only downside is cost.

Other engines - could always modify engine bay to take a different engine (such as a SBC). But this is outside of the LS1 world.

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by WeatherGuy:
<strong>Iron block - durable, can take boost with iron heads, can take big shots of gas, but definitely heavier, hotter, less efficient, and lower compression required if using iron heads. Wall thickness limits bore size here much as sleeve size does on aluminum blocks.

C5R block - nice option for a lot of reasons. Only downside is cost.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">What are you talking about? LOL!

You use standard aluminum heads with the Iron block. Not iron heads!

The weight difference is between 65-70 pounds for the stock (not bored) iron block vs alum.

The top end of the motor is absolutely identical.

With a .030 overbore the wall thickness is more than suitable for a 300 shot of spray. The issue with higher amounts of spray on the .030 iron block is not from cylinder weaknesses but from the heads lifting under too much cylinder pressure. (Which is also the case for the alum blocks due to the headbolt design. good studs help alleviate this)

Just wanted to clear that up. There is no reason whatsover to run an iron head on a 6L iron LS1 motor. Both the 5.3 and 6L truck heads are alum.

The ONLY potential downside to running the iron block is the extra 60-70 pounds weight.

Personally I think the durability advantages of iron for juice and the WAY lower cost of machining make the iron block a great affordable option.
Cheers,
Chris

<small>[ September 28, 2002, 12:43 PM: Message edited by: Chris ARE 360 ]</small>

 

How exactly is your 396 cheap? That motor cost a hell of a lot more than the standard 388 that MMS does. There is no need to lie to everybody Terry. That is a no holds barred NA racing motor. Just because you bought it second hand doesn't make it cheap. If you are interested in a backup...I have one for you.

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Nine Ball:
<strong>Next spring, I may sell the 434ci setup and go with an iron block 4XX ci solid-roller engine. I'd like to make 700-800+ rwhp on nitrous

Tony</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hey Tony,

MTI is building a motor, same as the one you mentioned above. It has been 3 weeks already and the pistons still haven't arrived yet. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Sad]" src="gr_sad.gif" /> Hopefully they'll be here in a week or two. And if everything is on schedule as planned, I will beat you getting there first. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="gr_tounge.gif" />

I think my iron 408 motor will be the first iron motor coming out of MTI.

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by JP98SS:
<strong>How exactly is your 396 cheap? That motor cost a hell of a lot more than the standard 388 that MMS does. There is no need to lie to everybody Terry. That is a no holds barred NA racing motor. Just because you bought it second hand doesn't make it cheap. If you are interested in a backup...I have one for you.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You got that right JP. Take it from me, that motor was in NO WAY cheap.

BTW JP, I hope you have all your problems worked out.

Anyway, I feel for you Tony. I went over a year without racing. Good luck with the fix. I'll bet your up and running again in a month or so.

Tom

<small>[ September 29, 2002, 09:08 AM: Message edited by: Tom the roofer ]</small>