LSx engines, race only setup
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
From: Westminster, MD
LSx engines, race only setup Hey All,
Been kicking around the idea of someday getting away from the current bbc and trying a LSx series engine swap.
With all the different series available, which has the most potential for building the most power normally aspirated? Probably looking at roughly 400-410 ci max.
This would be a high compression carburated setup for a 79 Malibu stock suspension car. Looking at say 14 to 1+ compression solid roller carburated engine.
Who out there specializes in building race versions of these LSx engines? What flow potential do each of the heads have, and how much port work is required to build some fairly serious N/A power.
Rules are the ports must remain in the stock location (intake & exhaust) and the valve angles must remain as the factory made them (some angle milling allowed).
How much N/A power can realistically be made out of a 400-410 ci engine without going super crazy and making a max effort deal costing $15-20k. 650hp? 700? 750? even 800? What kind of rpm is required to build said HP number?
Give a breif overview of the parts possibly needed, especially in the head/induction department. iron or aluminum block?
For the given rules, the car would have to weigh 3225 lbs @ 400 ci, and 3300 lbs for 425 ci? Cars run on a 275/60 drag radial tire. Current class leader came out and ran 9.36 @ 142 mpg with a low port 434ci sbc at 3350 lbs. I'm currently running 10.0's @ 132 mph at 3515 lbs with the 460 ci bbc, and am 110 lbs over weight for my given ci.
How do the weights of an iron block/alum head and alum head/alum block LSx engine compare to the weight of an iron block/alum head or iron block/iron head bbc?
thanks for any and all input
Todd
Been kicking around the idea of someday getting away from the current bbc and trying a LSx series engine swap.
With all the different series available, which has the most potential for building the most power normally aspirated? Probably looking at roughly 400-410 ci max.
This would be a high compression carburated setup for a 79 Malibu stock suspension car. Looking at say 14 to 1+ compression solid roller carburated engine.
Who out there specializes in building race versions of these LSx engines? What flow potential do each of the heads have, and how much port work is required to build some fairly serious N/A power.
Rules are the ports must remain in the stock location (intake & exhaust) and the valve angles must remain as the factory made them (some angle milling allowed).
How much N/A power can realistically be made out of a 400-410 ci engine without going super crazy and making a max effort deal costing $15-20k. 650hp? 700? 750? even 800? What kind of rpm is required to build said HP number?
Give a breif overview of the parts possibly needed, especially in the head/induction department. iron or aluminum block?
For the given rules, the car would have to weigh 3225 lbs @ 400 ci, and 3300 lbs for 425 ci? Cars run on a 275/60 drag radial tire. Current class leader came out and ran 9.36 @ 142 mpg with a low port 434ci sbc at 3350 lbs. I'm currently running 10.0's @ 132 mph at 3515 lbs with the 460 ci bbc, and am 110 lbs over weight for my given ci.
How do the weights of an iron block/alum head and alum head/alum block LSx engine compare to the weight of an iron block/alum head or iron block/iron head bbc?
thanks for any and all input
Todd
Todd
First what class are you running? What series?
Second holy **** where in Westminster are you? I live right off Old Manchester Road near the Random House plant.
Third if you want to see/hear EXACTLY what you are talking about give me a yell I have the EXACT motor you just described. Just had it built and I installed it in the car, I am just wrapping up some loose ends and it will be track ready.
First what class are you running? What series?
Second holy **** where in Westminster are you? I live right off Old Manchester Road near the Random House plant.
Third if you want to see/hear EXACTLY what you are talking about give me a yell I have the EXACT motor you just described. Just had it built and I installed it in the car, I am just wrapping up some loose ends and it will be track ready.
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
From: Westminster, MD
Originally Posted by 93LS1RX7
Todd
First what class are you running? What series?
Second holy **** where in Westminster are you? I live right off Old Manchester Road near the Random House plant.
Third if you want to see/hear EXACTLY what you are talking about give me a yell I have the EXACT motor you just described. Just had it built and I installed it in the car, I am just wrapping up some loose ends and it will be track ready.
First what class are you running? What series?
Second holy **** where in Westminster are you? I live right off Old Manchester Road near the Random House plant.
Third if you want to see/hear EXACTLY what you are talking about give me a yell I have the EXACT motor you just described. Just had it built and I installed it in the car, I am just wrapping up some loose ends and it will be track ready.
I also run with the MSRA in the DOT class which I've run since this class started several years ago. Engine rules are more open with the MSRA and the class runs with a 10.0 ceiling/breakout.
I used to live out on RT 97 just past the airport at the intersection of RT97 and Pleasant Valley Road. About a year or two ago we built a new house which sits on the hill at the intersection of RT140/Royer.
Any info you would be willing to share on your engine setup would be great. I don't know if this will happen or not, but I'm intruiged to see what the power potential per $$$ is for the LSx series engines compared to the older 23 degree small blocks.
Last edited by DOTracer; Sep 20, 2005 at 12:14 PM.
On The Tree
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 169
Likes: 0
From: Las Vegas
We do race engines for the PSCA series out here, www.pscaracing.com , my LSx motor is setup for Hot Street which is the N/A motor class.
My ci limit is 440 because I'm against mostly big blocks, and I ended up 430ci.
Again, with going against mostly BB's, I had to pull as many stops as I could to get the power I need, sheetmetal manifold, C5R heads, high compression, gigantor cam, and stripped down car.
I get a good amount of weight breaks in my class by being SBC, but it sounds like you're still going to have to be heavy.
Can you run solid or do you have to be hydraulic?
Also, post a link to your class rules if you can.
Here are some pics of my motor setup:
http://www.cmotorsports.com/images/Dave%20pics/
My ci limit is 440 because I'm against mostly big blocks, and I ended up 430ci.
Again, with going against mostly BB's, I had to pull as many stops as I could to get the power I need, sheetmetal manifold, C5R heads, high compression, gigantor cam, and stripped down car.
I get a good amount of weight breaks in my class by being SBC, but it sounds like you're still going to have to be heavy.
Can you run solid or do you have to be hydraulic?
Also, post a link to your class rules if you can.
Here are some pics of my motor setup:
http://www.cmotorsports.com/images/Dave%20pics/
Originally Posted by DOTracer
The class is the RAM Racing Normally Aspirated Series. I run the newly formed Drag Radial class. I'm currently leading the class points with two wins and one runner up, but I certainly don't have anything for a 9.30 car.
Any info you would be willing to share on your engine setup would be great. I don't know if this will happen or not, but I'm intruiged to see what the power potential per $$$ is for the LSx series engines compared to the older 23 degree small blocks.
Any info you would be willing to share on your engine setup would be great. I don't know if this will happen or not, but I'm intruiged to see what the power potential per $$$ is for the LSx series engines compared to the older 23 degree small blocks.
I am going to start running the MSRA UDr class next year but I dont know how competetive I can be. They have stepped it up a lot this year.
I am guesstimating that I am just a hair over 600rwhp through a glide and a IRS rear NA. My motor is set to run large amounts of nitrous though.
Nothing really tough about the motor just an iron motor 408 running high compression and good heads. If you want to check out my setup give me a yell. I am getting married in a couple weeks so time is limited right now but I would more than happy to show it to you....unless you are gonna beat me with a similar setup
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
From: Westminster, MD
Yes, definately a solid roller. Here's rules as listed on the RAM site.
http://www.ramracing.us/racing/rules2.php
Essentially no limits on internal mods, but the heads rules are what will hold back power production.
As stated before, I plan to stay with the current carb setup, and I we have to stay with commercially available cast intakes.
I somehow doubt the C5R heads would be legal....but dunno for sure.
http://www.ramracing.us/racing/rules2.php
Essentially no limits on internal mods, but the heads rules are what will hold back power production.
As stated before, I plan to stay with the current carb setup, and I we have to stay with commercially available cast intakes.
I somehow doubt the C5R heads would be legal....but dunno for sure.
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
From: Westminster, MD
Throw some ideas out guys...what heads should I be looking at and who should be porting them? What kind of power/flow numbers do they support and what kind of $$$ to expect to put into the heads?
Trending Topics
ET performance and AFR/TEA are the big hiters in the head arena.
The ET performance havent been in the market that long but their flow numbers look really really nice.
AFR 225 heads are the biggest "Proven" head right now.
The ET performance havent been in the market that long but their flow numbers look really really nice.
AFR 225 heads are the biggest "Proven" head right now.
LS1 Tech Stories
The Best V8 Stories One Small Block at Time
Gas Monkey Built a 6-Wheel Ferrari Testarossa With a Corvette LT4 Engine
Verdad Gallardo
7 Most Reliable High-Performance Engines GM Has Ever Built
Verdad Gallardo
Amazing '71 Camaro Restomod Is Modern Muscle Car Under the Skin
Verdad Gallardo
6 Common C5 Corvette Failures and What's Involved In Repairing Them
Pouria Savadkouei
Retro Modern Bandit Pontiac Trans AM Comes With Burt Reynolds' Autograph
Verdad Gallardo
Top 10 Greatest Cadillac V Series Performance Models Ever, Ranked
Pouria Savadkouei
Top 10 Most Powerful Chevy Trucks Ever Made!
Hennessey's New Supercharged Silverado ZR2 Has 700 HP
Verdad Gallardo
Coachbuilt N2A Anteros Is an LS2-Powered C6 Corvette In Italian Clothes
Verdad Gallardo On The Tree
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 169
Likes: 0
From: Las Vegas
Geez, class leader is probably around 800 or so to the wheels, with that et and weight?
Doing it on small block at a reasonable 3050#'s(347ci) or 3150#'s(370) or 3225(383), you'd have to push almost 750 hp.
Unless you have the supreme allending chassis setup.
IMHO, I don't think they're weight break is fair to the SBC.
I think the biggest 383 power you could get based on the limitations set by their rules would be probably 600-630 rwhp and that would be getting after it with the best flowing ported 225 runners you could find, a nasty cam and some big compression.
A 402 setup might get you just over 650 but then you're adding more weight too.
Doing it on small block at a reasonable 3050#'s(347ci) or 3150#'s(370) or 3225(383), you'd have to push almost 750 hp.
Unless you have the supreme allending chassis setup.
IMHO, I don't think they're weight break is fair to the SBC.
I think the biggest 383 power you could get based on the limitations set by their rules would be probably 600-630 rwhp and that would be getting after it with the best flowing ported 225 runners you could find, a nasty cam and some big compression.
A 402 setup might get you just over 650 but then you're adding more weight too.
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
From: Westminster, MD
I'm guessing here, but I'd tend to think a iron block/alum head LS1/6/7 engine would likely be some 200+ lbs, lighter than my current iron headed bbc? That alone is a problem with a drag radial car having all that nose weight. With the lighter gen III sbc, I'd think I could then put weight were it needs to be which would definately towards the middle/rear of the car. I do plan to probably cut my mild steel bage out and do it over with 4130 chromoly to try and get closer to my 3405 minimum for the 460 bbc. Since I have a Tig welder and have access to a hydraulic bender, the cage swap would only cost my time and about $300 in tubing.
Yea, 9.30's at 3350 lbs is a tough number to compete with and I doubt many can do so without spending a great deal of time/money to get there. I certainly don't plan to go broke trying to do so, just was very curious to see if a Gen III small block was up to the task or not without being a ragged edge max effort deal. I do believe that low port 23 degree 434 sbc is not your everyday type engine. Impressive performance no doubt.
Yea, 9.30's at 3350 lbs is a tough number to compete with and I doubt many can do so without spending a great deal of time/money to get there. I certainly don't plan to go broke trying to do so, just was very curious to see if a Gen III small block was up to the task or not without being a ragged edge max effort deal. I do believe that low port 23 degree 434 sbc is not your everyday type engine. Impressive performance no doubt.
On The Tree
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 169
Likes: 0
From: Las Vegas
I agree 100% that moving that weight off the nose would be beneficial, which is why I was saying you'd have to get all your advantage in the chassis setup.
I think ultimately it may go over what you are budgeting.
I was trying to think of who the quickest was in a 347 or 383 all motor setup and I believe it's Futral, I'm sure anyone on here can correct me.
I'm not sure what his best was, but I don't think it was 9.30's nor the weight you need to be.
It's funny the heads up class out here almost invites the LS1 to come and participate by the way they rule their classes.
But that's along haul for you.
I think ultimately it may go over what you are budgeting.
I was trying to think of who the quickest was in a 347 or 383 all motor setup and I believe it's Futral, I'm sure anyone on here can correct me.
I'm not sure what his best was, but I don't think it was 9.30's nor the weight you need to be.
It's funny the heads up class out here almost invites the LS1 to come and participate by the way they rule their classes.
But that's along haul for you.
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
From: Westminster, MD
Originally Posted by CMSDave
I agree 100% that moving that weight off the nose would be beneficial, which is why I was saying you'd have to get all your advantage in the chassis setup.
I think ultimately it may go over what you are budgeting.
I was trying to think of who the quickest was in a 347 or 383 all motor setup and I believe it's Futral, I'm sure anyone on here can correct me.
I'm not sure what his best was, but I don't think it was 9.30's nor the weight you need to be.
It's funny the heads up class out here almost invites the LS1 to come and participate by the way they rule their classes.
But that's along haul for you.
I think ultimately it may go over what you are budgeting.
I was trying to think of who the quickest was in a 347 or 383 all motor setup and I believe it's Futral, I'm sure anyone on here can correct me.
I'm not sure what his best was, but I don't think it was 9.30's nor the weight you need to be.
It's funny the heads up class out here almost invites the LS1 to come and participate by the way they rule their classes.
But that's along haul for you.
I think I'll likely have to give up on the idea of being able to compete with a 9.30 car. Too dang expensive for bragging rights. I still will keep a LSx engine swap in mind as it is an easy way to drop some weight and it shouldn't be terribly hard to make one run say 9.70's to 9.80's at 3200-3300 lbs... much more doable than low 9's that's for sure.
I have been considering something along these lines, but I would like to go the other way. I want to pull my LS1 and swap a nice BBC in it's place. The thing I am considering is that I have a whole shop full of good BBC parts, and they are very easy for me to get a hold of if I need something different. LS1 parts are much more expensive for me, and for HP/cubic$, the BBC is much cheaper, plus I already have experience with BBCs, after having bracket raced with them for years before switching to Blown Nitro.
Guys, help me to decide-Keep the LS1 to run what I want to run, or swap in one of my BBCs, and do it without having to spend any more on the motor, just the swap itself. HELP PLEASE!
Guys, help me to decide-Keep the LS1 to run what I want to run, or swap in one of my BBCs, and do it without having to spend any more on the motor, just the swap itself. HELP PLEASE!
Last edited by Sandmann120; Sep 20, 2005 at 06:37 PM.
On The Tree
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 169
Likes: 0
From: Las Vegas
I was so monetarily tied to my setup that I had to stay with it.
Choice to do it again, I would go BBC.
You're right, comparitively, just cheaper to do.
Not cheaper on the whole if you're really getting after it, but cheaper than the route I went.
I just want to beat down BB's with my little EFI car, and the weight break seemed pretty fair.
Choice to do it again, I would go BBC.
You're right, comparitively, just cheaper to do.
Not cheaper on the whole if you're really getting after it, but cheaper than the route I went.
I just want to beat down BB's with my little EFI car, and the weight break seemed pretty fair.
On The Tree
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 169
Likes: 0
From: Las Vegas
Originally Posted by Sandmann120
I have been considering something along these lines, but I would like to go the other way. I want to pull my LS1 and swap a nice BBC in it's place. The thing I am considering is that I have a whole shop full of good BBC parts, and they are very easy for me to get a hold of if I need something different. LS1 parts are much more expensive for me, and for HP/cubic$, the BBC is much cheaper, plus I already have experience with BBCs, after having bracket raced with them for years before switching to Blown Nitro.
Guys, help me to decide-Keep the LS1 to run what I want to run, or swap in one of my BBCs, and do it without having to spend any more on the motor, just the swao itself. HELP PLEASE!
Guys, help me to decide-Keep the LS1 to run what I want to run, or swap in one of my BBCs, and do it without having to spend any more on the motor, just the swao itself. HELP PLEASE!
One other thing to consider is the RPM I will be turning for each race.
I will be into parts quite a bit more than I would be with the BB.
That would be another way of looking at costs, the Big Boy doesn't need to turn as hard, leads to longer life of valvesprings, rods, pushrods, etc.
Enough to count against the budget.
Definitly something to think about. Ultimately I would like to run this car in the local Drag Radial class at our little 1/8 mile track. Single power adder, stock-type suspension, ALL street equipment. That means I gotta figure out how to keep my wipers if I decide to swap in the BBC. Mid- low-5's is what it takes to make a dent in that class.
