Ls7 Fast 102 vs MSD airforce comparison
08-26-2016, 09:25 AM
#121
Tuskyz28 -
I agree up to a point that for most pump gas lsx's that the cathedral heads work very well. They have the air speed to get the car moving with the lower CR on pump gas.
But only 660 HP at the crank from a 427ci, 260 dur, 700" lift, obviously those are not some of the best LS7 heads.
Mamo uses Trickflow LS7 castings. Ever see a slow car using Trickflow heads, and I mean any make? I haven't. Sure there would be when the owner can't get the combination working, but most aren't. Trickflow are some of the best ET'ing heads out there. And many are still out of the box, with Tony reworking the Trickflow heads there's no doubt they will be even better.
Now here's a different LS7 build again, but race gas
825 flywheel HP naturally aspirated, 258 duration (intake), .641-inch lift camshaft
http://www.dragzine.com/tech-stories...liminator-ls7/
Would lowering the CR on that combination above to 11.5:1 and pump gas lose 165fwhp.... be interesting to try and see.
IMHO.... Heads that are too large for pump gas LSX's, cathedrals will work better, I agree with you. That's why the LS7 heads i bought are only 240cc intake runner. They were special cast by GM and given to Nascar teams. I only bought them thinking they will work well because they were specially built for small cubic inch engines on pump gas. 330ci destroked 3.900" bore and were limited to 7000 rpm with only 240/240 620' cams. I've heard some of them were making 600 flywheel. How accurate that is or not i don't know.
I will find out soon enough how they work. And if i then put them on a bigger ci motor, i wont be making the ports any bigger or changing the valves until i try them as they are first. The combinations you posted above are proof that less is often more, definitely. And there's no doubting that cathedral heads are a freak. But there's now LS7 headed combinations out there making some serious numbers also. The example you posted above obviously not one of them. To be honest if i built a 427ci with $4k+ heads and a 700" 260's camshaft and it made 660hp flywheel, id sell it in parts before i mention it in public anywhere and start over.
I agree up to a point that for most pump gas lsx's that the cathedral heads work very well. They have the air speed to get the car moving with the lower CR on pump gas.
But only 660 HP at the crank from a 427ci, 260 dur, 700" lift, obviously those are not some of the best LS7 heads.
Mamo uses Trickflow LS7 castings. Ever see a slow car using Trickflow heads, and I mean any make? I haven't. Sure there would be when the owner can't get the combination working, but most aren't. Trickflow are some of the best ET'ing heads out there. And many are still out of the box, with Tony reworking the Trickflow heads there's no doubt they will be even better.
Now here's a different LS7 build again, but race gas
825 flywheel HP naturally aspirated, 258 duration (intake), .641-inch lift camshaft
http://www.dragzine.com/tech-stories...liminator-ls7/
Would lowering the CR on that combination above to 11.5:1 and pump gas lose 165fwhp.... be interesting to try and see.
IMHO.... Heads that are too large for pump gas LSX's, cathedrals will work better, I agree with you. That's why the LS7 heads i bought are only 240cc intake runner. They were special cast by GM and given to Nascar teams. I only bought them thinking they will work well because they were specially built for small cubic inch engines on pump gas. 330ci destroked 3.900" bore and were limited to 7000 rpm with only 240/240 620' cams. I've heard some of them were making 600 flywheel. How accurate that is or not i don't know.
I will find out soon enough how they work. And if i then put them on a bigger ci motor, i wont be making the ports any bigger or changing the valves until i try them as they are first. The combinations you posted above are proof that less is often more, definitely. And there's no doubting that cathedral heads are a freak. But there's now LS7 headed combinations out there making some serious numbers also. The example you posted above obviously not one of them. To be honest if i built a 427ci with $4k+ heads and a 700" 260's camshaft and it made 660hp flywheel, id sell it in parts before i mention it in public anywhere and start over.
08-26-2016, 09:42 AM
#122
TECH Veteran
That Wilson intake along is 3600 dollars and the heads are 3815 bucks BARE!! By you saying WCCH All pro heads are not some of the best is crazy!! That's like saying Micheal Jordan never wasn't a good ball player. Every LS guy on board here respects All pro cylinder heads...
08-26-2016, 09:44 AM
#123
I have numerous customers that swapped from a stock LS7 to my ported MSD and a 102 TB and have picked up 40 - 45 RWHP......thats retarded from a manifold swap and some of them that hit the track have backed up these gains with an increase in the vicinity of 4 MPH in their trap speed.
-Tony
-Tony
08-26-2016, 09:59 AM
#124
That Wilson intake along is 3600 dollars and the heads are 3815 bucks BARE!! By you saying WCCH All pro heads are not some of the best is crazy!! That's like saying Micheal Jordan never wasn't a good ball player. Every LS guy on board here respects All pro cylinder heads...
How many all-pro headed cars are there,. I'm sure there'd have to be a fast one somewhere using those heads. The combination you posted above isn't working so well, the heads, and probably the camshaft are too large for the pump gas CR. The camshaft could be a turd also. There are so many variables when making HP. Some guys see 100hp from a camshaft swap, with similar max lift/duration, at high HP naturally aspirated engines. Because of the valve events. There is MUCH more to engines than seeing one, or even 10, LS7 headed combos get beat by cathedral heads, to just come in here and say LS7 heads are no good.
I can also say I've seen lots of not so good results from LS3 heads, the head that doesn't know if it's trying to be a better cathedral head, or an LS7 head that someone butchered by hacking the bottom of the ports. But then I've see a couple stock LS3 headed cars work very well and go as fast as a good CNC cathedral head.
Last edited by Launch; 08-26-2016 at 10:40 AM.
08-26-2016, 10:13 AM
#125
Just because Wilson sells an intake for $3600 doesn't make it great. Maybe it is for some specific applications. Read what Tony has said about intakes on these LS engines, that the front entry GM plastic LS1/2/3/6/7 style Fast/MSD can't be beaten easily, if at all. Not even by a race single plane intake, which in theory "looks" like it should make more power with a top mount 4 hole TB because of the near straight shot into the cylinders.... but they don't because they don't run even on all cylinders, and then there's the heat soak.
The SAMS 825hp I posted above used the Holley Hi-Ram.. an intake that's been proven to work using forced induction. And from that build is working well on a n/a LS7 on race gas also. Would I use it on a pump gas LSX, probably not. Id bet a ported Fast or MSD will beat it.
I'm sure there's many now happy modified zo6 owners with LS7 heads who will show your cathedral headed car his tail lights. And like I said earlier, the next quickest in the n/a 8's from a cathedral in your typical race weight gutted fbody is a car with an LS7 block, and "old" MTI ported LS7 heads, that went 8.60 ET n/a. Try that with any cathedral head. I don't think it has or ever can be done.
Pertaining that LS7 heads are junk is crazy. Just like showing me $3800 Wilson intakes and $5000 all-pro heads "should" be fast, just because they cost so much. Maybe they can be but it takes the right combination of parts, and car, to make them work.
The entire combination of parts has to work together to make good power. Sometimes "bigger" isn't always better and there's people left wondering why their car is a turd and cam-only ls1's have beat them. For sure. If I you bolt on 280+cc , 400+cfm race heads on a pump gas engine you better have the whole combination working properly and understand how the camshaft will affect the dynamic CR and how that "race" intake will work below 4500rpm
The combination you posted above is a perfect example of too much cylinder head and intake and cam that bleeds all the CR...... now try different cams and intakes but leave those 280cc all-pro heads on it and I still bet he could gain 50fwhp
Now all that said there's a very good reason for forced induction being the easy way, it doesn't care as much about all of the above
The SAMS 825hp I posted above used the Holley Hi-Ram.. an intake that's been proven to work using forced induction. And from that build is working well on a n/a LS7 on race gas also. Would I use it on a pump gas LSX, probably not. Id bet a ported Fast or MSD will beat it.
I'm sure there's many now happy modified zo6 owners with LS7 heads who will show your cathedral headed car his tail lights. And like I said earlier, the next quickest in the n/a 8's from a cathedral in your typical race weight gutted fbody is a car with an LS7 block, and "old" MTI ported LS7 heads, that went 8.60 ET n/a. Try that with any cathedral head. I don't think it has or ever can be done.
Pertaining that LS7 heads are junk is crazy. Just like showing me $3800 Wilson intakes and $5000 all-pro heads "should" be fast, just because they cost so much. Maybe they can be but it takes the right combination of parts, and car, to make them work.
The entire combination of parts has to work together to make good power. Sometimes "bigger" isn't always better and there's people left wondering why their car is a turd and cam-only ls1's have beat them. For sure. If I you bolt on 280+cc , 400+cfm race heads on a pump gas engine you better have the whole combination working properly and understand how the camshaft will affect the dynamic CR and how that "race" intake will work below 4500rpm
The combination you posted above is a perfect example of too much cylinder head and intake and cam that bleeds all the CR...... now try different cams and intakes but leave those 280cc all-pro heads on it and I still bet he could gain 50fwhp
Now all that said there's a very good reason for forced induction being the easy way, it doesn't care as much about all of the above
Last edited by Launch; 08-26-2016 at 10:42 AM.
08-26-2016, 10:34 AM
#126
11 Second Club
10.55 at 133.3 with a 1.59 60', 104.78 in the eighth. The air was very good (low to mid 50s and fairly dry). 427, 12:1 compression, off the shelf TFS 235s, Fast 92 intake with a 3,650 lb. race weight. 3.73 gears.
Notice he not even running a 102mm Fast which could be ported.
Notice the heads are OUT THE BOX.. he could step up to a nitrous exhaust port 245cc head.
Notice his car is 3650 lbs.... waaaay heavier than any C6 corvette .
There's room for improvement for sure. I honestly think if Bill went with a 245cc TFS head warmed over with a fast 102mm intake to match the heads the car will go 10.3s at the bare minimum!!
Bill car is also 6 speed with a 3.73 gear.. I say shove a 4.11 in the rear and let the beast have dinner at the track..
Notice he not even running a 102mm Fast which could be ported.
Notice the heads are OUT THE BOX.. he could step up to a nitrous exhaust port 245cc head.
Notice his car is 3650 lbs.... waaaay heavier than any C6 corvette .
There's room for improvement for sure. I honestly think if Bill went with a 245cc TFS head warmed over with a fast 102mm intake to match the heads the car will go 10.3s at the bare minimum!!
Bill car is also 6 speed with a 3.73 gear.. I say shove a 4.11 in the rear and let the beast have dinner at the track..
Right on. His car definitely has more potential.
08-26-2016, 10:39 AM
#127
TECH Veteran
It's not like saying Jordan wasn't a good player.
I respect what I see guys use and et well down the track. I've seen lots of Trickflow, lots of AFR, MTI back in the day, texas speed, even stock GM, heads go fast down the track. Just to name a few. Im sure there's more.
How many all-pro headed cars are there? I'm sure there'd have to be a fast one somewhere using those heads. The combination you posted above isn't working so well, the heads are too large for the pump gas combination. The camshaft could be a turd also. There are so many variables when making HP. Some guys see 100hp from a camshaft swap, with similar max lift/duration, at high HP naturally aspirated engines. Because of the valve events. There is MUCH more to engines than seeing one, or even 10, LS7 headed combos get beat by cathedral heads, to just come in here and say LS7 heads are no good.
I can also say I've seen lots of crap results from LS3 heads, the head that doesn't know if it's trying to be a better cathedral head, or an LS7 head that someone butchered by hacking the bottom of the ports. But then I've see a couple stock LS3 headed cars work very well and go as fast as a very good CNC cathedral head.
I respect what I see guys use and et well down the track. I've seen lots of Trickflow, lots of AFR, MTI back in the day, texas speed, even stock GM, heads go fast down the track. Just to name a few. Im sure there's more.
How many all-pro headed cars are there? I'm sure there'd have to be a fast one somewhere using those heads. The combination you posted above isn't working so well, the heads are too large for the pump gas combination. The camshaft could be a turd also. There are so many variables when making HP. Some guys see 100hp from a camshaft swap, with similar max lift/duration, at high HP naturally aspirated engines. Because of the valve events. There is MUCH more to engines than seeing one, or even 10, LS7 headed combos get beat by cathedral heads, to just come in here and say LS7 heads are no good.
I can also say I've seen lots of crap results from LS3 heads, the head that doesn't know if it's trying to be a better cathedral head, or an LS7 head that someone butchered by hacking the bottom of the ports. But then I've see a couple stock LS3 headed cars work very well and go as fast as a very good CNC cathedral head.
Pat G told me the problem with the LS3 heads. He told me something about the wall of the chamber's but I can't put it word for word. It's been awhile since I spoke with Patrick due to me working alk the time. Look at the flow chart of a factory LS3 head and you'll see they suffer big time on in the exhaust department which why you usually see a large split with those. The intake/exhaust ratio really sucks from the factory. Then Brian Tooley told me the big intake valves in LS3/LS7 heads are Very sensitive to overlap and valve events. The bigger the valve the harder the combo will be to hit that "magic" spot with the cam specs.
Me speaking, I personally think the LS3 head is a hit or miss... some guys run well with those heads and others are left scratching their heads.
Most guys that's running fast with factory heads are running light cars and very secretive about their cam specs. Im sure the intake manifold choice plays a HUGE ROLE as well.
08-26-2016, 10:52 AM
#128
Launch- the guys I've seen usually runs the all pro heads are running some form of force induction... so it's hard to get an accurate say so on a all motor setup.
Pat G told me the problem with the LS3 heads. He told me something about the wall of the chamber's but I can't put it word for word. It's been awhile since I spoke with Patrick due to me working alk the time. Look at the flow chart of a factory LS3 head and you'll see they suffer big time on in the exhaust department which why you usually see a large split with those. The intake/exhaust ratio really sucks from the factory. Then Brian Tooley told me the big intake valves in LS3/LS7 heads are Very sensitive to overlap and valve events. The bigger the valve the harder the combo will be to hit that "magic" spot with the cam specs.
Me speaking, I personally think the LS3 head is a hit or miss... some guys run well with those heads and others are left scratching their heads.
Most guys that's running fast with factory heads are running light cars and very secretive about their cam specs. Im sure the intake manifold choice plays a HUGE ROLE as well.
Pat G told me the problem with the LS3 heads. He told me something about the wall of the chamber's but I can't put it word for word. It's been awhile since I spoke with Patrick due to me working alk the time. Look at the flow chart of a factory LS3 head and you'll see they suffer big time on in the exhaust department which why you usually see a large split with those. The intake/exhaust ratio really sucks from the factory. Then Brian Tooley told me the big intake valves in LS3/LS7 heads are Very sensitive to overlap and valve events. The bigger the valve the harder the combo will be to hit that "magic" spot with the cam specs.
Me speaking, I personally think the LS3 head is a hit or miss... some guys run well with those heads and others are left scratching their heads.
Most guys that's running fast with factory heads are running light cars and very secretive about their cam specs. Im sure the intake manifold choice plays a HUGE ROLE as well.
08-26-2016, 10:53 AM
#129
11 Second Club
Just because Wilson sells an intake for $3600 doesn't make it great. Read what Tony has said about intakes on these LS engines, that the front entry GM plastic LS1/2/3/6/7 style Fast/MSD can't be beaten easily, if at all. Not even by a race single plane intake, which in theory "looks" like it should make more power with a top mount 4 hole TB because of the near straight shot into the cylinders.... but they don't because they don't run even on all cylinders, and then there's the heat soak.
The SAMS 825hp I posted above used the Holley Hi-Ram.. an intake that's been proven to work using forced induction. And from that build is working well on a n/a LS7 on race gas also. Would I use it on a pump gas LSX, probably not. Id bet a ported Fast or MSD will beat it.
I'm sure there's many now happy modified zo6 owners with LS7 heads who will show your cathedral headed car his tail lights. And like I said earlier, the next quickest in the n/a 8's from a cathedral in your typical race weight gutted fbody is a car with an LS7 block, and "old" MTI ported LS7 heads, that went 8.60 ET n/a. Try that with any cathedral head. I don't think it has or ever can be done.
Pertaining that LS7 heads are junk is crazy. Just like showing me $3800 Wilson intakes and $5000 all-pro heads "should" be fast, just because they cost so much. Maybe they can be but it takes the right combination of parts, and car, to make them work.
The SAMS 825hp I posted above used the Holley Hi-Ram.. an intake that's been proven to work using forced induction. And from that build is working well on a n/a LS7 on race gas also. Would I use it on a pump gas LSX, probably not. Id bet a ported Fast or MSD will beat it.
I'm sure there's many now happy modified zo6 owners with LS7 heads who will show your cathedral headed car his tail lights. And like I said earlier, the next quickest in the n/a 8's from a cathedral in your typical race weight gutted fbody is a car with an LS7 block, and "old" MTI ported LS7 heads, that went 8.60 ET n/a. Try that with any cathedral head. I don't think it has or ever can be done.
Pertaining that LS7 heads are junk is crazy. Just like showing me $3800 Wilson intakes and $5000 all-pro heads "should" be fast, just because they cost so much. Maybe they can be but it takes the right combination of parts, and car, to make them work.
I'd just like to back up Wilson Manifolds a little. As you stated just because of a high price doesn't mean something is good. Which is true. A lot of times you do get what you pay for. Wilson did design the fast intakes. They do some awesome work over there.
The BES all pro cathedral heads flow 400+. On their flow bench. With .950"-1" lift. Like you stated though, I bet not too many people run these heads.
Amen to the whole combo.
Last edited by SoFla01SSLookinstok; 12-07-2016 at 06:43 PM.
08-26-2016, 11:09 AM
#130
TECH Veteran
I personally also think alot of guys would benefit with a great vacuum pump system like by GZ but most guys overlook it or just think it doesn't matter.
08-26-2016, 03:39 PM
#131
Far less hassle not to mention also.....it's really insane when you get right down to it....a boost of 25 RWHP is a nice shot in the arm typical of a much better manifold installed on a decent shortblock....getting around 20 more than that is really incredible.
It accepts stock injectors, fuel rails etc. and while the ported version necessary to show you these gains will set you back around $1500 or so, it's a bargain when you consider the gains and the ease of install (a lazy afternoon and it's installed....half an afternoon for the guys that wrench on a regular basis).
Much like any other major mod that affects your engine's ability to process airflow you should have the car tuned before getting deep in the throttle but that's to be expected also
Good stuff!
-Tony
__________________
www.mamomotorsports.com
Tony@MamoMotorsports.com
Anything worth doing is worth doing well. Build it right the first time....its alot cheaper than building it twice!!
www.mamomotorsports.com
Tony@MamoMotorsports.com
Anything worth doing is worth doing well. Build it right the first time....its alot cheaper than building it twice!!
08-26-2016, 07:53 PM
#132
No joke it is.....it's the equivalent of most of the popular more budget oriented head swaps to be honest
Far less hassle not to mention also.....it's really insane when you get right down to it....a boost of 25 RWHP is a nice shot in the arm typical of a much better manifold installed on a decent shortblock....getting around 20 more than that is really incredible.
It accepts stock injectors, fuel rails etc. and while the ported version necessary to show you these gains will set you back around $1500 or so, it's a bargain when you consider the gains and the ease of install (a lazy afternoon and it's installed....half an afternoon for the guys that wrench on a regular basis).
Much like any other major mod that affects your engine's ability to process airflow you should have the car tuned before getting deep in the throttle but that's to be expected also
Good stuff!
-Tony
Far less hassle not to mention also.....it's really insane when you get right down to it....a boost of 25 RWHP is a nice shot in the arm typical of a much better manifold installed on a decent shortblock....getting around 20 more than that is really incredible.
It accepts stock injectors, fuel rails etc. and while the ported version necessary to show you these gains will set you back around $1500 or so, it's a bargain when you consider the gains and the ease of install (a lazy afternoon and it's installed....half an afternoon for the guys that wrench on a regular basis).
Much like any other major mod that affects your engine's ability to process airflow you should have the car tuned before getting deep in the throttle but that's to be expected also
Good stuff!
-Tony