Boring Everyday 500 HP LS1
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SO the plan is after the manifold test on the same dyno for an apples to apples evaluation of that mod I'm pretty sure Darth plans to run the car back on the original dyno he rolled 496 on previously (likely with the new MSD installed knowing we ended up at "XXX" on the new dyno he has rolled on recently).
That will be the final confirmation of just how much he gained (compared to months back) from the recent round of mods (factoring in drivetrain losses from the gears and rear)
Should be cool....both the manifold test and the trip back to the original dyno!
-Tony
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www.mamomotorsports.com
Tony@MamoMotorsports.com
Anything worth doing is worth doing well. Build it right the first time....its alot cheaper than building it twice!!
www.mamomotorsports.com
Tony@MamoMotorsports.com
Anything worth doing is worth doing well. Build it right the first time....its alot cheaper than building it twice!!
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 10,450
Likes: 1,873
From: My own internal universe
Originally Posted by big hammer
I bet with a couple choice mods and overnight parts from Japan a guy could push that up even further Jaik
Originally Posted by HioSSilver
Nice job darth! Msd gonna wake it up at high rpm.
On The Tree
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 101
Likes: 10
Congrats on the amazing build. Well done indeed. My MAMO build is taking shape and is making me salivate at the potential.
What size exhaust set-up are you running? My combo will also be in a f-body (albeit 3rd gen) but like 4th gens, I will be limited in exhaust options aft of the headers.
What size exhaust set-up are you running? My combo will also be in a f-body (albeit 3rd gen) but like 4th gens, I will be limited in exhaust options aft of the headers.
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Verdad Gallardo Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 10,450
Likes: 1,873
From: My own internal universe
Congrats on the amazing build. Well done indeed. My MAMO build is taking shape and is making me salivate at the potential.
What size exhaust set-up are you running? My combo will also be in a f-body (albeit 3rd gen) but like 4th gens, I will be limited in exhaust options aft of the headers.
What size exhaust set-up are you running? My combo will also be in a f-body (albeit 3rd gen) but like 4th gens, I will be limited in exhaust options aft of the headers.
So, I get home and I notice the heat trace coming off the cats from under the car, so I lay down to look, and it's a furnace under there!. So, I let it cool down, dropped the Y-pipe, threw 18" 3" pipe extensions on, begged the dyno operator to just let me make one pull and see if it was the cats, and I ripped 470.
Obviously, can't drive it like that everyday, so I ordered kooks true duals - uncatted to avoid future bad luck - 3" with the X-pipe and all the way back. That exhaust flowed nicely, and combined with the light clutch, picked up 26 over the open headers - again, no tuning, just baselined to see if it changed any.
In retrospect, even if the cats weren't plugged, I couldn't have had a worse Y-pipe. The two sides met at a 120 degree angle dead-head, and then the I pipe to the cate back was the other 120 degrees. Like a crows foot. My first run on this car was a budget build, and I paid for it in the end. Oddly enough, it was cheaper to just buy the good stuff, because then I only build it once - and you're never happy with yourself when you know you left something on the table.
Yep, running really rich - like you often see in tuning - kills cats in no time flat. Good call on the exhaust nut, better to buy once and buy right. Really good build man, and the compliment was more to you than the car. Keep us posted!
On The Tree
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 101
Likes: 10
Yeah, that honestly killed me too. I will never forget doing the full engine build and running to the dyno just super excited to find out what my mamo heads and 102 intake would do only to pull 395HP after spending hours on the rollers, and this tuner was GOOD. He was really cool about it, but he said, "something is really holding it back, and it's not making any sense. Must be the exhaust. You should be pulling 430 easy."
So, I get home and I notice the heat trace coming off the cats from under the car, so I lay down to look, and it's a furnace under there!. So, I let it cool down, dropped the Y-pipe, threw 18" 3" pipe extensions on, begged the dyno operator to just let me make one pull and see if it was the cats, and I ripped 470.
Obviously, can't drive it like that everyday, so I ordered kooks true duals - uncatted to avoid future bad luck - 3" with the X-pipe and all the way back. That exhaust flowed nicely, and combined with the light clutch, picked up 26 over the open headers - again, no tuning, just baselined to see if it changed any.
In retrospect, even if the cats weren't plugged, I couldn't have had a worse Y-pipe. The two sides met at a 120 degree angle dead-head, and then the I pipe to the cate back was the other 120 degrees. Like a crows foot. My first run on this car was a budget build, and I paid for it in the end. Oddly enough, it was cheaper to just buy the good stuff, because then I only build it once - and you're never happy with yourself when you know you left something on the table.
So, I get home and I notice the heat trace coming off the cats from under the car, so I lay down to look, and it's a furnace under there!. So, I let it cool down, dropped the Y-pipe, threw 18" 3" pipe extensions on, begged the dyno operator to just let me make one pull and see if it was the cats, and I ripped 470.
Obviously, can't drive it like that everyday, so I ordered kooks true duals - uncatted to avoid future bad luck - 3" with the X-pipe and all the way back. That exhaust flowed nicely, and combined with the light clutch, picked up 26 over the open headers - again, no tuning, just baselined to see if it changed any.
In retrospect, even if the cats weren't plugged, I couldn't have had a worse Y-pipe. The two sides met at a 120 degree angle dead-head, and then the I pipe to the cate back was the other 120 degrees. Like a crows foot. My first run on this car was a budget build, and I paid for it in the end. Oddly enough, it was cheaper to just buy the good stuff, because then I only build it once - and you're never happy with yourself when you know you left something on the table.
Good info here and highlights my dilemma. I was looking at the new Hooker Dual systems for these cars but at 2.5", it will bottleneck the exhaust. One of their engineers posted on a 3rd gen board about not going over 400rwhp with that setup. A single 4" is another option, which is available for these cars. When you had your cat restrictions what size were they? I would really prefer to run dual 3" high flow cats if possible. I am all but accepting that I will be making a custom y-pipe to avoid the pitfalls you encountered.
Single 3" cross section area is 7.07"
Dual 2.5" is 9.82"
4" is 12.57"
Dual 3" is 14.14"
There are other considerations in exhaust system flow vs power besides cross sectional area (dual vs single, merge/crossovers, tubing length, frequency, etc) but IMHO it's probably at the top of that list.
None of this really matters as much as the fact that those cats were clogged/f&cked.
For reference, I made 465 to the tire with a cammed LS3 through the SLP dual dual, with the single 3" pipe being the bottle neck. Given the HP guys are making with factory 2.5" duals like the V1 CTS-V and C5 and C6 vettes (among others), you'd have to be making an absolute **** ton of power for dual 2.5" to be a meaningful restriction. I would not listen to that particular hooker/engineer very seriously.
Dual 2.5" is 9.82"
4" is 12.57"
Dual 3" is 14.14"
There are other considerations in exhaust system flow vs power besides cross sectional area (dual vs single, merge/crossovers, tubing length, frequency, etc) but IMHO it's probably at the top of that list.
None of this really matters as much as the fact that those cats were clogged/f&cked.
For reference, I made 465 to the tire with a cammed LS3 through the SLP dual dual, with the single 3" pipe being the bottle neck. Given the HP guys are making with factory 2.5" duals like the V1 CTS-V and C5 and C6 vettes (among others), you'd have to be making an absolute **** ton of power for dual 2.5" to be a meaningful restriction. I would not listen to that particular hooker/engineer very seriously.
Last edited by jmilz28; Dec 20, 2016 at 04:31 PM.
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Aug 2009
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From: Coast of San Mateo County Between Pacifica & HMB
I was told by Nick @ ARH that a true dual 2 1/2" exhaust with
X pipe is good to ~500 RWHP, as you approach 550 RWHP time
For a True dual 3" system. The difference between 2 1/2" - 3"
As one approaches 600 RWHP can be 30+ RWHP.
X pipe is good to ~500 RWHP, as you approach 550 RWHP time
For a True dual 3" system. The difference between 2 1/2" - 3"
As one approaches 600 RWHP can be 30+ RWHP.
Now put in a stock ls1 cam and make some really good power 😉 jk jk
Those are nitrous/low boost turbo numbers so damn that's impressive naturally aspirated. I wonder if the "2.5 inch true dual x-piped good to 500 rwhp," statement is with cutouts. Otherwise if there is no loss in power with dual 2.5" exhaust until after 500 rwhp , then that is decent as I was always told 2.5 inch dual up to 500 hp at the motor. All relative to the driveline loss of the test vehicle I suppose.
Those are nitrous/low boost turbo numbers so damn that's impressive naturally aspirated. I wonder if the "2.5 inch true dual x-piped good to 500 rwhp," statement is with cutouts. Otherwise if there is no loss in power with dual 2.5" exhaust until after 500 rwhp , then that is decent as I was always told 2.5 inch dual up to 500 hp at the motor. All relative to the driveline loss of the test vehicle I suppose.
On The Tree
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
From: New Zealand
That's some damn good work, you clearly put lots of time into that combo.
Calculations I have done in past showed dual 3" is good to 800hp or so. Dual 2.5" like factory on Holdens and G5 camaro has a little crimp in it to cramp a few HP lower than the vette but is fine for most mild boltons.
Anyone on an LS3 or similar output especially if they want to build in future with heads or n20/FI should be on dual 3".
Calculations I have done in past showed dual 3" is good to 800hp or so. Dual 2.5" like factory on Holdens and G5 camaro has a little crimp in it to cramp a few HP lower than the vette but is fine for most mild boltons.
Anyone on an LS3 or similar output especially if they want to build in future with heads or n20/FI should be on dual 3".
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 10,450
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From: My own internal universe
I looked into the blackheart system, and I was torn between which way to go. What I finally decided is - what if I do the blackheart and then begin to wonder what if the kooks? But I knew I would not install the kooks and wonder - what if the blackheart?
So, I didn't make much of a technical decision so much as a gut check decision. Because the blackheart was cheaper than kooks, but kooks was cheaper than buying both.
So, I didn't make much of a technical decision so much as a gut check decision. Because the blackheart was cheaper than kooks, but kooks was cheaper than buying both.
On The Tree
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 101
Likes: 10
If the motor is boosted than you can get away with a slightly smaller than "optimal" exhaust size due to the increase in exhaust pressure. That helps immensely with scavenging and velocity. Hence why cast iron manifolds are used. Decisions Decisions.....
TECH Addict
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,189
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From: Portland, Oregon
I looked into the blackheart system, and I was torn between which way to go. What I finally decided is - what if I do the blackheart and then begin to wonder what if the kooks? But I knew I would not install the kooks and wonder - what if the blackheart?
So, I didn't make much of a technical decision so much as a gut check decision. Because the blackheart was cheaper than kooks, but kooks was cheaper than buying both.
So, I didn't make much of a technical decision so much as a gut check decision. Because the blackheart was cheaper than kooks, but kooks was cheaper than buying both.
